Art in Artistry

Anna K. · Apr 17, 2018

I am with those who consider figure skating or, more precisely, ice shows a separate form of art; I would classify it as a variety of the modern circus. And, just like the modern circus, it can and it must include elements of various other arts, like, choreography, theatre, music, visual arts… or soccer

Anna K. · Apr 17, 2018

elbkup said:
Some favorite skaters (some not so much) and their choreographers in art history terms ...

This reminds me a game that I played with my friend; it was long ago when I had an FS crazy friend in real life, not just in online forums

…
Anyway, we used to describe the different personalities of skaters by comparing them to something else. (This is totally off-topic but you know how to take it to a separate thread if you are interest, don’t you?) It was mostly divided by discipline, so the game would go like: “Which flower is she?” or “Which car is he?” or “Which pairing of wine and cheese are they?” I don’t know if you have similar games in this forum. However, to avoid possible dehumanization arising from comparing people to foods and things, I must tell you that the best personality description game we ever had was: “What would she do if she met a bear on a narrow path?” It might be a bit cruel towards the bear but it was actually a great way how to describe the spirit a girl steps on the ice with!

elbkup · Apr 17, 2018

Anna K. said:
I am with those who consider figure skating or, more precisely, ice shows a separate form of art; I would classify it as a variety of the modern circus. And, just like the modern circus, it can and it must include elements of various other arts, like, choreography, theatre, music, visual arts… or soccer

Spot on in my view.. This is what we all love about FS... it's flexibility, that it contains elements of all art disciplines you mention and more... have you ever compared a skater's performance to a painting or sculpture? Far from dehumanizing I think, it relates directly to and enhances human sensual (as in the senses, touch, taste, sight of course, even scent) experience. Skating contains elements of all theater from circus to ballet, but has added elements to work with such as speed, glide and flight that exist no where else so "breaks the rules", oversteps boundaries of conventional movement art forms of dance, theater.

chopinskate · Apr 17, 2018

Izabela said:
Aside from the obvious answers, which skaters would you think have given fresh routines and somehow deconstructed (if this is ever the right term here) the "traditional" understanding of how figure skating (as dance on ice) should be? And by obvious answers, top of my mind I can only think of Yuzuru and Daisuke. (I have a limited range when it comes to knowledge in skaters).

Here's one example: Giada Russo

I also think Yuna Kim's skate to traditional Korean Music, or Yuzuru Hanyu's Seimei and Hope and Legacy, or Boyang Jin's attempt this season at bringing Chinese culture to FS with his Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon routine are worth mentioning.

elbkup · Apr 17, 2018

Izabela said:
Aside from the obvious answers, which skaters would you think have given fresh routines and somehow deconstructed (if this is ever the right term here) the "traditional" understanding of how figure skating (as dance on ice) should be? And by obvious answers, top of my mind I can only think of Yuzuru and Daisuke. (I have a limited range when it comes to knowledge in skaters).

Could I answer with these.. a few of my favorites?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bZbUfVULERc
Misha Ge's EX with Madison Chock.. 50 Shades. Elements of theater and ballet drawn from a Hollywood film but told from the gentleman 's POV, different, because the film is from the woman's POV..

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jiTCL33G9no
Muramoto/Reed.. Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FbMwYO7CLkc
Alena Kostonaria. Stella's Theme

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EIAVbdThjpg
Elladj Balde. Blood Diamond

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zqwjW3xuhCk
Yulia Lipnitskaya. Romeo & Juliet

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s_hfhcpfZYo
Javier Fernandez. Malaguena (he took flamenco lessons for this..)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ONYkbm1Vrfg
Chock & Bates. Paso Doble

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LtbZP688V9w
Jason Brown. The Piano

Baron Vladimir · Apr 17, 2018

Anna K. said:
I am with those who consider figure skating or, more precisely, ice shows a separate form of art; I would classify it as a variety of the modern circus. And, just like the modern circus, it can and it must include elements of various other arts, like, choreography, theatre, music, visual arts… or soccer

Well every more complex sport include different aspects of performances. In FS that performance aspect is directly judged, so skaters are inclined to show also some forms of art performance as musicality and acting. Performing for audience is what makes skaters to include those. So im not saying there is no art (depending on how we define art, but in terms of performance for audience i can see it) in FS. Im just saying those aspects we can see in other sports and i don't see why should we call FS exclusively an artistic sport and for example soccer not.

chopinskate · Apr 17, 2018

Baron Vladimir said:
Im just saying those aspects we can see in other sports and i don'n see why should we call FS exclusively an artistic sport and for example soccer not.

The definition of art indeed might be too restricted. There is, after all, an Art of War.

lappo · Apr 17, 2018

Izabela said:
Aside from the obvious answers, which skaters would you think have given fresh routines and somehow deconstructed (if this is ever the right term here) the "traditional" understanding of how figure skating (as dance on ice) should be? And by obvious answers, top of my mind I can only think of Yuzuru and Daisuke. (I have a limited range when it comes to knowledge in skaters).

Ivett Toth SP (both this and the previous season one) are quite different from what you usually find in ladies skating.

Anna K. · Apr 17, 2018

chopinskate said:
The definition of art indeed might be too restricted. There is, after all, an Art of War.

Or Martial Arts, for instance. Actually, it might be a Western cultural stereotype when we restrict arts to exclusively impractical or spiritual activities

I would rather stick to the definition that art is the highest degree of human achievement regardless of the field or discipline... And now it's off-topic again :biggrin:

plushyfan · Apr 17, 2018

chopinskate said:
No. Figure skating isn't and has never been balletic. It takes elements from ballet, but it has always had space for interpretation with those elements, IMO.

For that matter... I can't really name a balletic skater. I can see elements of ballet exemplified in Sasha Cohen and Mao Asada, but I wouldn't call them "ballet dancers on ice".

Have you seen Plushenko's Nijinsky? Or some new exhibitions of him? He had many balletic moves..He worked with Sergei Filin ( ex Bolshoi director). He can be very balletic if he wants. Filin choreographed Plushenko and Emanuel Sandhu converted to the ice..

https://www.instagram.com/p/BHSOO3qgVIt/?taken-by=plushenkoofficial - the original. Somebody mentioned Toller name in a comment

https://www.instagram.com/p/BOg60jHj2Hc/?taken-by=plushenkoofficial - when he skated it to another music. He used to skate a choreograph to different musics..
Sometimes to really different music.

el henry · Apr 17, 2018

I need to respectfully disagree that all sport is art, or can be art, at least while using the same meaning of the word.

As the avatar shows, I have a passing familiarity with other sports

I could say that a trick play on fourth and down in the Super Bowl, resulting in the QB *catching* the ball for a TD, is a work of art. I could say that the QB scrambling, darting out of the pocket, running and throwing with grace at the same time, is an artistic vision. In English, we say boxing is the “manly art”.

That is in no way shape or form the same as Toller executing artistic vision on the ice and changing men’s skating forever.
IMHO :biggrin:

gkelly · Apr 17, 2018

chopinskate said:
No. Figure skating isn't and has never been balletic. It takes elements from ballet, but it has always had space for interpretation with those elements, IMO.

Yes, and it also takes elements from other dance forms, especially ballroom dance in ice dancing, from from martial arts in programs so inspired, from circus/acrobatics (especially in pair skating), etc.

For that matter... I can't really name a balletic skater. I can see elements of ballet exemplified in Sasha Cohen and Mao Asada, but I wouldn't call them "ballet dancers on ice".

John Curry?

Katherine Healy for sure, but she wasn't a competitive skater.

Yes. And it's extremely sad that people can't get away from biases and instead cling on to the age old notion of the aesthetic, wanting the rest of the world to change instead. I'm fine with preferences, but not with passing off subjectivity as objectivity. It's time dance and FS changed the way its audience views presentation. There are several here who like new, fresh routines, though, so that's good, and that seems to be a general trend.[/QUOTE]

Izabela · Apr 17, 2018

el henry said:
I need to respectfully disagree that all sport is art, or can be art, at least while using the same meaning of the word.

As the avatar shows, I have a passing familiarity with other sports I could say that a trick play on fourth and down in the Super Bowl, resulting in the QB *catching* the ball for a TD, is a work of art. I could say that the QB scrambling, darting out of the pocket, running and throwing with grace at the same time, is an artistic vision. In English, we say boxing is the “manly art”.

That is in no way shape or form the same as Toller executing artistic vision on the ice and changing men’s skating forever.
IMHO

Yup. I think there is a difference between saying there is art in every sport versus displaying art in the sport, which Figure skating is in the latter. There is a clear intension for artistry to be rewarded in figure skating, otherwise we could simply abolish Performance, Interpretation, Choreography in the judging system. The fact that this still remains a part of how programs should be scored makes artistry a deliberate building block of figure skating (as fragile that block as it is now). It was meant to be showcased, to be drawn out, and to be developed. Figure skating is this regard is not like any other sport. TBH, I also don’t understand why we want it to be like any other sports when its beauty lies on the desire to blend artistry with athleticism!

chopinskate · Apr 17, 2018

gkelly said:
John Curry?

Katherine Healy for sure, but she wasn't a competitive skater.

I wouldn't say so. I don't really think he brought ballet to the ice, and I don't think his balletic capabilities were as good as everyone stated. Very well controlled in Don Quixote, but I just don't see ballet there. Nathan Chen has balletic elements in his upper body, but still he isn't a ballet dancer on ice.

Haven't watched Healy.

plushyfan said:
Have you seen Plushenko's Nijinsky? Or some new exhibitions of him? He had many balletic moves..He worked with Sergei Filin ( ex Bolshoi director). He can be very balletic if he wants. Filin choreographed Plushenko and Emanuel Sandhu converted to the ice..

He might take balletic elements, sure, but I just don't see figure skating as ballet on ice.

Baron Vladimir · Apr 17, 2018

Izabela said:
Yup. I think there is a difference between saying there is art in every sport versus displaying art in the sport, which Figure skating is in the latter. There is a clear intension for artistry to be rewarded in figure skating, otherwise we could simply abolish Performance, Interpretation, Choreography in the judging system.

I don't think PE, IN and CO are there because of intension of FS to reward artistry (as a prime motive). You can score good PE,IN and CO score without displaying a clear artistic vision (if you can jump good, skate big, fast, precise with your whole body and to the music rhythm and make a contact with the audience)... And vice versa... What is artistic i think is skaters intention to skate for the audience, to perform, to let someone see his/her individual something...

Izabela · Apr 17, 2018

Baron Vladimir said:
I don't think PE, IN and CO are there because of intension of FS to reward artistry (as a prime motive). You can score good PE,IN and CO score without displaying a clear artistic vision (if you can jump good, skate big, fast, precise with your whole body and to the music rhythm and make a contact with the audience)... And vice versa... What is artistic i think is skaters intention to skate for the audience, to perform, to let someone see his/her individual something...

Just to refresh you how ISU define these three in the more easily accessible language:

• Performance is the physical and emotional involvement of the skater/couple as they deliver the intent of the music and composition (e.g. carriage, style, personality, variety, contrasts, projection).

• Composition is an intentionally developed and/or original arrangement of all types of movements according to the principles of musical phrase, space, pattern, and structure (e.g. idea, concept, unity, pattern, phrasing, originality, design)

• Interpretation of the Music /Timing (for Ice Dance) it is the personal, creative, and genuine translation of the rhythm, character and content of music to movement on ice.

In what way these three components can be construed anything but a clear intention to reward artistry as a prime motive?

Baron Vladimir · Apr 17, 2018

^^^
Those couple of things you quoted i see as a performance as technical and personal (cognitive, emotional, motivational) involvement of a skater.. What is artistic in delivering intent of the theme/character/music phrase or skating to the music rhythm for example? The point is that skaters are asked to show some of that, not to be artistic while showing it. I mean ISU is not asking skaters with it to create a new piece, they can be artistic if they want to, but that is not the basic premise of FS programme nor it is what makes skaters programme successful.

Izabela · Apr 18, 2018

Baron Vladimir said:
^^^
Those couple of things you quoted i see as a performance as technical and personal (cognitive, emotional, motivational) involvement of a skater.. What is artistic in delivering intent of the theme/character/music phrase or skating to the music rhythm for example? The point is that skaters are asked to show some of that, not to be artistic while showing it. I mean ISU is not asking skaters with it to create a new piece, they can be artistic if they want to, but that is not the basic premise of FS programme nor it is what makes skaters programme successful.

And who said that artistry should not require a mastering of technique? Artistry also doesn't necessarily require originality. Delivering a convincing performance that captures the intent/theme and musical phrasing through your skating with physical and emotional involvement is to exhibit artistry in itself, this is why we are getting complaints from those who value artistry when the movements, transitions, step sequences and jumps (to name few elements) do not translate the intent of the music, are not inspired by the music, do not reflect the tempo, rhythm and/or force of the music, as if skaters only skate with the music in the background.

Baron Vladimir · Apr 18, 2018

^^^
Of course, you can look on art in that broader way. Then again, looking it that way, there is no single elite skater who doesnt translate intent of the music, in his own individual way (at least in some parts of their programme). And those complaints from 'the one who value artistry' are just subjective preferencies of how some programme should look and what type of art skater should produce. But in that broader way every elite skater is artistic, one way or another. The difference is just that some shows their 'artistry' more seconds of their programme.

elbkup · Apr 18, 2018

^^^ personal taste and subjectivity are hallmarks of artistic appreciation, to be sure, but basic standards do apply regardless. General consensus will always differentiate a "wooden" performance from an accomplished one. Beyond that, sky's the limit!!

Art in Artistry

Anna K.

Anna K.

elbkup

Power without conscience is a savage weapon

chopinskate

elbkup

Power without conscience is a savage weapon

Baron Vladimir

chopinskate

lappo

Anna K.

plushyfan

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

gkelly

Izabela

chopinskate

Baron Vladimir

Izabela

Baron Vladimir

Izabela

Baron Vladimir

elbkup

Power without conscience is a savage weapon

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