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Thread: 2018-19 U.S. Men’s figure skating

  1. #461
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    More angles to see Vincent UR isn't going to help him. I'm seriously confused why this is a "controversy". Vincent is known as someone who does UR jumps a lot and the rule change made this even tougher, which he was already struggling with. Put 2+ 2 together and figure out what's going to happen. And it'll happen again now that everyone is going to be watching his jumps, unless he makes changes. And he wasn't the only person dinged for UR jumps and edge calls.

    I'm sure it's frustrating, but all you can do is fix what the judges are telling you to fix.

    Tom Z's tone wasn't bad, but it's a whole lot of Vincent did nothing wrong see here is a tweet and this cost him the podium and it was not his fault. I'm not sure that's the right attitude to take, but I'm not a coach so what do I know.

  2. #462
    Shepherdess of the Teal Deer Metis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by discode View Post
    More angles to see Vincent UR isn't going to help him. I'm seriously confused why this is a "controversy". Vincent is known as someone who does UR jumps a lot and the rule change made this even tougher, which he was already struggling with. Put 2+ 2 together and figure out what's going to happen. And it'll happen again now that everyone is going to be watching his jumps, unless he makes changes. And he wasn't the only person dinged for UR jumps and edge calls.

    I'm sure it's frustrating, but all you can do is fix what the judges are telling you to fix.
    So am I, but I’ve been screaming about his URs for a long time.

    I actually think his low GOEs are more of an issue. In the Skate America free, the best he did was 5 +3s, and his range was locked to +1-+3. Which was on a StSq that was given a Level 1, so he added less than half a point. The 3Lz was the only jump to get a +3, and his spins are in the 0-+2 range, with one exception (0-+3). Which, to me, seems entirely fair (and some other people probably belong in that range as well), but it’s still a lot of points he’s losing.

  3. #463
    avatar credit: @miyan5605 ice coverage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasorange View Post
    … Actually I was wondering this the other night while watching, can official appeals/complaints be made against the judging? I know they can in gymnastics but I can’t recall ever hearing about that happening in skating
    afaik, ISU rules do not allow official protests/appeals regarding tech calling and judging.

    Excerpt from Rule 123 from the ISU Constitution:

    4. Protest Restrictions

    In line with the generally accepted international sports concept according to which “field of play decisions” are not subject to correction and/or review, the score or time achieved by a Competitor during a segment, race or qualifying round of a competition is final, as a matter of principle, once the decision(s) of the competent Official(s) is/are announced by the official announcer and/or displayed on the score board or video screen of the competition. Consequently, the following restrictions for protests apply:

    A. Figure Skating

    a) No protests against evaluations by Referees, Judges and the Technical Panel (Technical Controller, Technical Specialists) of Skaters’ performances are allowed.

    b) Protests against results are permitted only in the case of incorrect mathematical calculation. A wrong identification of an element or of a level of difficulty, although it results in a lower or higher score is not an incorrect mathematical calculation.


    https://isu.org/inside-single-pair-s...onstitution-fs (see pages 127-129)

  4. #464
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    3 Not allowed!
    I watched Vincent's SP and LP and after seeing the jumps in slow-motion, I think the only two calls that were wrong were the SP 4F<, which I think probably should have gotten full credit, and the LP 3A<, which I thought was actually <<. I also feel like doing 12 toe-pick jumps and 2 edge jumps (of the same type) in a competition doesn't show enough variety, so I'm not sure if the judges view that negatively as well.

  5. #465
    Shepherdess of the Teal Deer Metis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I watched Vincent's SP and LP and after seeing the jumps in slow-motion, I think the only two calls that were wrong were the SP 4F<, which I think probably should have gotten full credit, and the LP 3A<, which I thought was actually <<. I also feel like doing 12 toe-pick jumps and 2 edge jumps (of the same type) in a competition doesn't show enough variety, so I'm not sure if the judges view that negatively as well.
    The LP 3A was absolutely worth a <<. I was surprised it was only called UR.

    I doubt Vincent will ever take a hit in CO for his layouts. 7.50-8.25, which ended as a 7.75. It’s a minor(ish) nitpick I have with Chen — he’s an amazing toe-jumper, but I’m not sure you can give 9.50+ CO marks when the first three jumping passes are the flip and the Lutz, though at least he usually has the Loop for another edge jump. If Vincent were going to be judged for showing lack of variety, it should be in CO (and informal feedback). But we all know PCS is a mess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  6. #466
    in Emergency Backup Mode karne's Avatar
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    0 Not allowed!
    Admittedly, one thing that is irking me about this post of Z's is simply this:

    Where was his passion for correct UR calling two years ago? More specifically, on the 24th January, 2016? Or does he only care about URs when it's his skater getting called for them, and being disadvantaged by them, and not when his skater is the one being disadvantaged by them not being called?

  7. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    Admittedly, one thing that is irking me about this post of Z's is simply this:

    Where was his passion for correct UR calling two years ago? More specifically, on the 24th January, 2016? Or does he only care about URs when it's his skater getting called for them, and being disadvantaged by them, and not when his skater is the one being disadvantaged by them not being called?
    .....Can you be more specific? I think I know where you're going but, I don't want to upset anyone.

  8. #468
    in Emergency Backup Mode karne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrice View Post
    .....Can you be more specific? I think I know where you're going but, I don't want to upset anyone.
    Sure. Where was Z's passion for correct UR calling when Rippon's 4Lz was incorrectly called < instead of << and his 3Lz-3T wasn't called < at all, which cost Max his second National title? Something a bit more important than a GP bronze?

    In the scheme of things, it's not the biggest thing annoying about Z's post, but it's like the mosquito bite just below the rim of the cast on your broken arm. Not your worst issue, but really fracking annoying.

  9. #469
    Rinkside
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    2 Not allowed!
    If Tom Z is oblivious about the underrotations on Vincent and making a bit of excuse, then Vincent really needs to find another coach. And dont think Tom is doing any justice for him.

    I dont mind Tom as a coach but it is clear he ignores this type of problems when his other skaters also underrotates well.

  10. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metis View Post


    If you want to make an argument about URs being too costly under the updated scoring system, I’d probably agree — I’ve never been in love with the idea that you can lose half your BV on a fall, and the BV reduction for URs is a much steeper penalty now that BV is lower. As soon as we started getting details on the system, I said TES was going to be volatile, and we’re seeing skaters lose 7 points after they leave the ice. Which has its pros and cons, but if you’re planning a programme for Vincent, it’s arguably worth rethinking whether or not to go for the 4Lz and 4F, solo and in combination, if you think there’s a >=50% chance that it’s going to tagged as UR (especially with Vincent’s flip edge issues). If you crunch the numbers, it’s the 3Lz that received the biggest change in terms of max score — and the 3Lz was Vincent’s best scoring element at Skate America.
    This is what I’ve been saying!
    They’ve penalized slight UR so much that it might not be worth attempting quads anymore. So if the scoring system is still supposed to incentivize big jumps, it doesn’t really work.

  11. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by VegMom View Post
    This is what I’ve been saying!
    They’ve penalized slight UR so much that it might not be worth attempting quads anymore. So if the scoring system is still supposed to incentivize big jumps, it doesn’t really work.
    It's 90 degrees or more that is penalised, which isn't really slight. it may not be worth attempting big jumps if you do them like Vincent, it's true.

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