Should minimum age for seniors be raised?

Sam-Skwantch said:

I think the problem is that no one actually believes you’d be protecting the health of skaters though. There is zero evidence to suggest it and I’m actually concerned you’d see the opposite. So....

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I’ve already posted the links for articles on the effect of intense training on young athletes (although I can’t even say it’s in this thread I’m not that smart and I’ve lost track) that I believe support my stance. I’ve also said proof texting the articles (as in, this study does not specifically address adolescent girls who practice 20 quintuple jumps a day in a public rink in Eastern Anywhere) won’t convince me, as I believe general conclusions can be drawn from them.

And I understand folks may believe differently, and may want the specific studies that I don’t need. But talking about height, or composers, or ages of competitors who won the ABC medal in 1943; I mean really? Okey dokey then....

Sam-Skwantch said:

Have you ever watched someone actually doing figures?

I’d rather watch the zamboni honestly.

**Dodges Internet Fruit pies thrown at my avatat***

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Figures is fun. :yay:

Sam-Skwantch said:

Have you ever watched someone actually doing figures?

I’d rather watch the zamboni honestly.

**Dodges Internet Fruit pies thrown at my avatat***

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On this we agree; my beloved Toller came to such grief....:eeking:

However, training jump da jump jump jump is not the answer for me and watching jumpity jump jump jump jump jump is as boring to me as watching figures. On that we may not agree

el henry said:

All the folks who are so salty that the age might possibly be raised, I am having fun reading the comments

Only because as amusing to you as comments about height, and about other disciplines, and heavens to Betsy about other endeavors even, the relevance is so far removed that the humor is gone. Talk about reductio ad absurdum... not related at all to the raising the minimum age for seniors and not convincing at all to those of us who support it.

And, I gotta say funny to me because it’s not even funny. I can’t believe how a move to protect the health of skaters is so *threatening*.....

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Don't know about you but I do find this reasoning quite funny. Can you please explain how increasing the minimum age limit will "protect the health of skaters"? Apparently skating for juniors rather than for seniors somehow magically makes the same elements better for an athlete's health?

el henry said:

I’ve already posted the links for articles on the effect of intense training on young athletes (although I can’t even say it’s in this thread I’m not that smart and I’ve lost track) that I believe support my stance. I’ve also said proof texting the articles (as in, this study does not specifically address adolescent girls who practice 20 quintuple jumps a day in a public rink in Eastern Anywhere) won’t convince me, as I believe general conclusions can be drawn from them.

And I understand folks may believe differently, and may want the specific studies that I don’t need. But talking about height, or composers, or ages of competitors who won the ABC medal in 1943; I mean really? Okey dokey then....

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I don’t need a study though. I see actual skaters everyday doing off and on ice training. I know they are going to push themselves. . You can’t regulate human ambition. Now you’re suggestion is just going to increase the time they have to train before they can compete which I believe will certainly cause just as many and likely more injuries. That’s a real issue to consider with your idea. Subjecting the athletes to the exact same and likely higher levels of training without the chance for reward and establishing themselves and a career doesn’t seem very beneficial.

I have friends who skated and have had to get surgeries from training jumps over and over. They didn’t happen during any competition though. Maybe it’s just me but I trust the parents and coaches to make their own decisions. Especially when you consider how everyone is unique and grows at different paces. I really think it’s an issue for the athlete, their doctors, and family to decide.

Manitou said:

Almost identical with last 7 Olympics:
1994: 16-24-16
1998: 15-17-21
2002: 16-23-21
2006: 24-21-27
2010: 19-19-24
2014: 17-23-27
2018: 15-18-22

15 on podium: 2
16 on podium: 3


I think this whole thing is just a pre-emptive anti-Eteri action. I don't like Eteri, but it has nothing to do with the fact this entire "proposal" makes no sense at all. Trusova stirred this whole chaos. Shame on you, Sasha!

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If you look at average age of the medalists, NOTHING had changes since 1980s.
Still people keep screaming that teenage jumping beans are dominating everything.
L, Logic.

The worst is, we post some numbers here, and watch how everybody will ignore them.

Sam-Skwantch said:

I don’t need a study. I see actual skaters everyday doing off and on ice training. I know they are going to push themselves. . You can’t regulate human ambition. Now you’re suggestion is just going to increase the time they have to train before they can compete which I believe will certainly cause just as many and likely more injuries. That’s a real issue to consider with your idea. Subjecting the athletes to the exact same and likely higher levels of training without the chance for reward and establishing themselves.

I have friends who skated and have had to get surgeries from training jumps over and over. They didn’t happen during any competition though. Personally I don’t really like to impose my beliefs and trust the parents and coaches to make their own decisions. Especially when you consider how everyone is unique and grows at different paces. I really think it’s an issue for the athlete, their doctors, and family to decide.

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I’m sorry, the reason I avoided coming back to this thread is we all keep saying (and I include myself as number one on this) the same thing. Of course it won’t stop me from saying it again

1. There are studies that support my position. I’m sorry I can’t go back and look them up now, but that’s what I believe and I’m sticking to it. I’m stubborn that way.

2. I do believe in imposing rules for health, it happens in every sport. And, I DON’T CARE what the athletes will do “anyway”. I had a nickel for every time I said this, I’d have a lot of nickels

The point about training costs is a good one, and if I knew how to make skating long term accessible for everyone who wanted to skate, I would do so. I don’t

But I think we will just need to agree to disagree, and everyone can have fun with all the comparisons they want.....

Sam-Skwantch said:

Have you ever watched someone actually doing figures?

I’d rather watch the zamboni honestly.

**Dodges Internet Fruit pies thrown at my avatat***

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We could have figure zamboni riding. I would actually watch that.
Imagine pairs then, 2 zambonis doing figures on ice?

el henry said:

I’m sorry, the reason I avoided coming back to this thread is we all keep saying (and I include myself as number one on this) the same thing. Of course it won’t stop me from saying it again

1. There are studies that support my position. I’m sorry I can’t go back and look them up now, but that’s what I believe and I’m sticking to it. I’m stubborn that way.

2. I do believe in imposing rules for health, it happens in every sport. And, I DON’T CARE what the athletes will do “anyway”. I had a nickel for every time I said this, I’d have a lot of nickels

The point about training costs is a good one, and if I knew how to make skating long term accessible for everyone who wanted to skate, I would do so. I don’t

But I think we will just need to agree to disagree, and everyone can have fun with all the comparisons they want.....

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1. None of the articles you linked shows any evidence that an age increase will result in reduction of injuries incidence. Literally not a single one. If i am mistaken, please provide a link.
2. Age limit IS NOT a rule for health. It does not restrict in any way what the athletes are training. It just restricts the competitions which they can participate. Age limit rule has nothing to do with regulating the maximum number of hours a kid can train, for example, or the elements the kid can train.

We really kept writing you this over and over again, since you do not bother to answer those two points.

charlotte14 said:

Figures is fun. :yay:

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Enjoy...

https://youtu.be/jU9Hy1upUr0

el henry said:

I’m sorry, the reason I avoided coming back to this thread is we all keep saying (and I include myself as number one on this) the same thing. Of course it won’t stop me from saying it again

1. There are studies that support my position. I’m sorry I can’t go back and look them up now, but that’s what I believe and I’m sticking to it. I’m stubborn that way.

2. I do believe in imposing rules for health, it happens in every sport. And, I DON’T CARE what the athletes will do “anyway”. I had a nickel for every time I said this, I’d have a lot of nickels

The point about training costs is a good one, and if I knew how to make skating long term accessible for everyone who wanted to skate, I would do so. I don’t

But I think we will just need to agree to disagree, and everyone can have fun with all the comparisons they want.....

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Well, if you DON’T CARE what the athletes will do “anyway”, then what is this all about. What's the point then? Not real health troubles, just the way how to falsely satisfy some minds (and remove some danger for competitors)? If there really is some danger (based on solid evidence!!!, not just concern) for health, than maybe ban on quads could be considered, but not the age restrictions. Again (and again and again), how many skaters stared in seniors young without troubles for further succes and medals? I didn't see any acceptable argument yet.

Sam-Skwantch said:

Enjoy...

https://youtu.be/jU9Hy1upUr0

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No, not again

Sam-Skwantch said:

Enjoy...

https://youtu.be/jU9Hy1upUr0

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I enjoy a good dose of nostalgia every now and then!!

Of course, the novelty would wear off if we had to watch them every competition.

I do think that if injuries and the dominance of prepubescent skaters become issues in the years ahead, then implementing some sort of "figures-adjacent" portion of the competition - something that focuses almost exclusively on the objective evaluation of blade-to-ice skill - could effectively mitigate both problems. Trying to make it entertaining is another issue entirely. Perhaps removing a jumping pass or two in the SP and replacing those + a spin or two with one or two high-value extended compulsory footwork sequences? The footwork sequences could be evaluated separately from the program in great detail, and then the program as a whole could be evaluated regarding BV, GoE, and PCS. The SP result is quickly totaled as usual; then, while the competition continues as normal, a separate panel analyzes replays of each skater's footwork and scores it accordingly (based on correct execution of compulsory steps, depth of edges, speed, flow, etc.) - these score totals would then be added on to the SP totals after the completion of the SP, prior to the LP.

Training the skating skills necessary for something like this would necessitate less time spent training difficult jumps and reduce jump-related injuries, as well as raise the value of skills that are not impacted by physical development. If 4-8 years down the road we see a pattern of increased numbers of teenagers forced into retirement due to injury and/or the sport become dominated by prepubescent girls (both of these things which may or may not happen), it may be desirable to change the sport in such a way as to mitigate these problems.

I'm just spitballing here and brainstormed on this spot, so no one needs to attack me with reasons why such a thing would be bad. Just trying to have fun and procrastinate real work by coming up with potential alternatives to ye olde boring figures.

Sam-Skwantch said:

I have friends who skated and have had to get surgeries from training jumps over and over. They didn’t happen during any competition though. Maybe it’s just me but I trust the parents and coaches to make their own decisions. Especially when you consider how everyone is unique and grows at different paces. I really think it’s an issue for the athlete, their doctors, and family to decide.

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Sometimes parents, and even some coaches, don't know better.

So first I would I would find ways to share known research about dangers of overtraining in childhood and early adolescence, and recommendations for best practices in developing healthy elite skaters.

There will still be some coaches and some parents who will believe more training is better and ignore the recommendations. Young skaters especially those who are most driven are very likely to practice their favorite elements, or the elements they believe will best help them to win, over and over again more than their coaches recommend. In most cases those elements will be jumps.

And in some cases the overtrainers will have enough short-term competitive success to believe they have found a winning long-term strategy, even if the current success is at junior level or below. By the time they get to senior level, at whatever age that becomes possible, the long-term damage may already be done.

Because it's easier for young teens/preteens who already have consistent triples to start training triple-triple combos, triple axels, and quads than it is for older young women. If we want to see those elements from female skaters at all, age limits alone won't solve the problem. If those elements are illegal before senior level and the senior age limit is higher, we'll see some junior and younger skaters trying to learn them while they're still small in hopes that it will be easier to hold onto them as they grow than to learn them from scratch when they're older and bigger. To the extent that early training leads to injury, skaters who take that approach would still get injured but without the ones who do master those jumps getting a chance to try them in competition.

On the other hand, skaters who start trying to learn those elements at 17+ are likely to take harder falls and probably a higher percentage of falls and ground-out landings, so they'll just be delaying the injuries until an older age. And there will still be very few who succeed in mastering those elements and bringing them to senior competition. Whoever does, with current program content and scoring rules, would have the same outsized advantage as a 15-year-old with the same jumps. In mitigation, though, older skaters might be wiser about training smarter rather than just pounding out the repetitions. And more fully developed bodies might be better able to withstand the intensive training, even if they are not as agile in the air.

Changing the program/scoring rules to encourage more training of skills that are less dangerous to practice and more likely to build core strength etc. could help.

I don't think that school figures as a separate phase of elite singles competition is ever coming back. But what if there were a required freestyle element that requires edge precision at a level that can be incorporated into freestyle programs and judged (and called by technical panels) from a distance during the program without the need for clean ice? If a level 4 element of this type is worth as much as a triple jump and +GOE can make it worth even more, and the skills needed to achieve level 4 and high GOE require some figures-style training, that could be one way to encourage ambitious young skaters to spend the time on the edge skills.

Would it be fun for audiences to watch? Well, it's not as exciting athletically as a cutting-edge jump. But it could probably be integrated into choreography better (though not as well as a good step sequence or choreo sequence).

Fans who are primarily interested in the jumps might prefer an emphasis on more female 3As and quads. But at what cost to the skaters' health?

We don't have all the answer. But I think it's worth investigating in these directions and not expecting age limits alone to prevent injuries.

el henry said:

All the folks who are so salty that the age might possibly be raised, I am having fun reading the comments

Only because as amusing to you as comments about height, and about other disciplines, and heavens to Betsy about other endeavors even, the relevance is so far removed that the humor is gone. Talk about reductio ad absurdum... not related at all to the raising the minimum age for seniors and not convincing at all to those of us who support it.

And, I gotta say funny to me because it’s not even funny. I can’t believe how a move to protect the health of skaters is so *threatening*.....

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Because it's not a move to protect skaters' health. There's NOTHING in the proposal about health of skaters, but what there is is that apparently the older skaters are afraid of the younger ones, or that the sport apparently wants idols (everyone's definition of an idol is going to be different anyway and people are always going to have different idols anyway) It would be different if they're considering this for the skater's health and had proof to back it up that such a change would indeed protect health, bu they aren't and they don't.

Sam-Skwantch said:

Enjoy...

https://youtu.be/jU9Hy1upUr0

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I've just reported this post for mental abuse and overwhelming boredom.

Sam-Skwantch said:

Enjoy...

https://youtu.be/jU9Hy1upUr0

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That ice sweeping sport with the kettle looking thingies or whatever looks like the freakin X-Games compared to this crap.

Sam-Skwantch said:

Enjoy...

https://youtu.be/jU9Hy1upUr0

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I got a kick out of Dick Button's comments on Scott Hamilton at around 8:26

"his toe could have been a little more pointed" - Dick Button's all time obsession* - even in compulsory figures!

(* - maybe tied with beautiful layback positions)

el henry said:

And, I gotta say funny to me because it’s not even funny. I can’t believe how a move to protect the health of skaters is so *threatening*.....

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el henry, read the Netherlands' proposal. Where in there does it say that the proposal is designed to protect the health of skaters? I see a whole lotta horse manure about idols and women being afraid, but I don't see anything in the proposal about protecting skaters' health.

Why?

Because that's not the reason the proposal was suggested and anyone with half a damn brain knows it.

Imagine said:

That ice sweeping sport with the kettle looking thingies or whatever looks like the freakin X-Games compared to this crap.

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topic: You mean Curling? Don't knock it, it's Canada's top sport!

There's also the Norwegian Curling Team's pants, which are the epitome of epicness: https://www.facebook.com/NOCTP/

Also, out of curiosity people were in the stands in that video, did people pay to see figures? Imagine being brought along by your parents to see figure skating and watching that, after half an hour you'd be ready to riot.