Qualifiers at Future Worlds | Golden Skate

Qualifiers at Future Worlds

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DORISPULASKI

Guest
Qualifiers at Future Worlds

One interesting thing I noticed at worlds: Both Plush and Klimkin used 2 different programs for the qualifier and the LP.
Plush used Carmen for his Qualifier and of course St Petersburg 300 for the LP. Klimkin used Sonny Boy (which I really like) for the qualifier and Dr. Diesel (which I really hate) for the LP because the music is so painful.

No other skaters, men or ladies, as far as I know, used 2 programs. Why would Plush and Klimkin do that? Practice for the GPF format? Or is the ISU heading down this path and they know it first before we do.

Question1: Would using two different programs be a good idea? I think it would be too hard on the skaters, particularly skaters just coming up from juniors who would not have a used program to recycle as the second program. But it would make tickets for the qualifier much more saleable.

Question2: The A and B groupings in ladies were very, very unequal in ability, which was a real detriment to the ladies in Group A. I think that the qualifiers should only be used for their original purpose: to set the skate order for the SP and to eliminate skaters from skating the SP at all. No ordinals should be carried over from the qualifier because of the inherent inequality and impossibility of getting 2 exactly equal groupings. In this years Worlds, this more than Sasha's SP fall, was what kept her from getting the bronze medal. Even though Fumie was in 3rd and Sasha in 4th tied with Vika going into the long, and Sasha was 3rd in the long vs. 4th for Fumie, Sasha's 3rd in the qualifier vs. Fumie's first was the difference.

What does anyone else think about the qualifiers and these two questions?

dpp
 
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mathman444

Guest
Re: Qualifiers at Future Worlds

When the qualifying groups were first announced I thought that it made the road to the podium harder for the American girls. On the other hand, if you're going for gold, this gives you a chance to knock off your major opponents early, so I guess it could play out either way.

In the event, Sarah's disastrous qualifying skate put her in a hole that she couldn't climb out of despite two satisfactory efforts in the Short and Long.

I don't know what the ISU could do better to insure relative equality of the two groups. They already try to seed them 1, 3, 5 versus 2, 4, 6 based on last year's Worlds fininshes. A lot can happen in a year.

I don't really like the idea of having a contest that doesn't count. That would make the first round of interest only to fans of skaters on the bubble, or of skaters in the bottom third for whom the qualifying round is going to be their entire Worlds' experience.

About question #1, I hope that they don't require two separate programs. As you say, this would put a great burden on the least experienced skaters.

Mathman
 
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heyang

Guest
Re: Qualifiers at Future Worlds

I think either World's or Grand Prix required 2 different LP's at one point. This was to make it more media friendly. Most of the skaters would recycle their programs from previous season or present the beginnings of a new LP for the next season.

I seem to recall MK performing an initial version of Miraculous Mandarin late one season and then using a better version the following season.
 
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Show 42

Guest
Re: Qualifiers at Future Worlds

I understand the concept of making sure that the two qualifying groups are evenly divided.......that seems to be a concern for some who thought the group with the American ladies was unfairly grouped, but a mistake while skating is a mistake, no matter which group you're placed in. That's what did the ladies "in" who felt they would have faired better in a different group..........42
 
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rgirl181

Guest
Re: Qualifiers at Future Worlds

Except in the example of these particular Q groups, mistakes didn't penalize in one group and no mistakes didn't help in the other. Fumie, as I understand it, landed four triples in her Q group and placed 1st. Cupcake and Sasha landed six or seven triples in their Q round and placed 2nd and 3rd, respectively. So four triples beats six or seven triples, including in Elena's case, a 3Ltz/3t. I realize other things count, but if you look at the scores for the top three finishers in Fumie's Q group, they are significantly lower than the top three for Michelle's Q group. I think they should have just one Q group and seed it according to the previous year's placements. They can do it over two days, since 25 LPs would take forever.

Although personally, I'd like to see them dump the LP Q round. I'd prefer them to do something like the cumplusory dances in ice dance. I think every year every skater should have to learn the same program (about two minutes long) to the same music that incorporates figures, moves in the field, and certain spins and jumps, which would change from year to year. This way every skater could be evaluated on the same basic skills. Since choreography would not be an issue, the judges could concentrate on speed, edging, flow, ice coverage, jump technique and execution, spin centering, line, and musicality. I think the compulsory program should be part of every competition, not just worlds, and that GPF should go to this format and drop the two LP business.
Rgirl
 
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Ewdokia

Guest
Re: Qualifiers at Future Worlds

Compulsories in singles events? Wow, rgirl181 - great idea. I know that figures in the past weren't the crowd favourite, but it's disappointing how much skills like basic skating techniques, spinning and proper posture decreased since they have been abolished. And it's a shame that the jumps are the things which get more and more the decisive factor, though the jumps look uglier and uglier from year to year - all those flutzes, lips and spiny jumps with wobbly landings.
And what a pitty that skaters who have natural skating abilities so often don't seem to get rewarded if they don't have the tricks of good choreography. (I guess not all skaters can afford themselves to engage Morozow, Tarassova, Nichols, etc.) Putting some kind of figures in a compulsory dance for single skaters might be a solution to overcome that - it will encourage skaters to increase their basic skating AND it might be very joyful to watch for the audience.
 
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Jules Asner

Guest
Re: Qualifiers at Future Worlds

I don't like the current Qualifyer system.

I would be in favor of a compulsory where all skaters would do the same routine. I would like to see them all do the same routine to the same music as they used to do in Gymnastics. Basic elements and technique would be critiqued. Including jump take offs (proper lutzes), edging, propery spin positions, height of jumps, etcetera. Keep only the top 20 or 25 skaters and start with a clean slate in the short program.
 
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dlksk8fan

Guest
Re: Qualifiers at Future Worlds

Compulsory's in singles would be very interesting, but doesn't the short program sort of do that with the required moves?
 
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southwestwind

Guest
Re: Qualifiers at Future Worlds

Having Q program with compulsory elements in a fixed order would also highlight the differences in technique on specific moves among the skaters and allow those fans that are trying learn the differences in the jumps a way to identify "what that was" (or wasn't).
SWW
 
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heyang

Guest
Re: Qualifiers at Future Worlds

I like the idea of a compulsory skate as long as all the moves at fair - not many skaters can perform bielman's. Good basic skating is what would be important.

Would a layback spin be fair? We've already had a discussion about which is harder. Is it fair to force a skater to perform the layback or heart spin if they are better at the other.

As long as the elements do not disfavor any physical limitations (sorry bendy people won't get to do their tricks), it would be a fair way to compare basic skills.
 
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Joesitz

Guest
Re: Qualifiers at Future Worlds

The Qualifying Round killed Sasha and gave Fumie the big edge. Unfortunately, Sasha had almost a clean skate, just little bobble which she covered up so well. IMO, she was under marked.

The Qualifying Round means a lot in the scope of the contest. Skaters should be aware, it counts!!

Joe
 
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THIZfiyaVIETgrl

Guest
Re: Qualifiers at Future Worlds

I like the Qualifying Rounds counting because it makes the chances of a fluke win less. If the Qualifying Group didn't count, then the judges would just see a bunch of skaters messing around during their LP just doing what is needed to qualify. I like the fact that it takes more than one lucky skate to win this competition.

Also about Sasha, if Sasha didn't fall in the SP, she would have gotten the Bronze. It's that simple.
 
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Ptichka

Guest
Re: Qualifiers at Future Worlds

I always like the idea of compulsories for singles. Basic skills, may be a simple jump, a spin or two. Theoretically, the system where skaters are divided into two groups should become more fair once the new scoring system comes into effect, since it is supposed to be based on the actual score, not a factored placements. In other words, if Elena were better than Fumie, she would end up with a higher score even though they are in different groups.

I think Plushy like to do two different programs because he like to show off. I believe he did the same thing at Worlds 2 years ago. I am not sure, but I belive Yags did the same thing as well.
 
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anastasiabeaverhoussen

Guest
New rules

When do the new rules take effect? What else are in the new rules?
 
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Ptichka

Guest
Re: New rules

When Speedy proposed the new judging system, there were two parts to it. One is the disaster we have been witnessing this year -- the secret judging, random scores, etc.

The second part has drown even more criticism, but I think it actually has good potential. In it, judges mark each element the skater performs, as well the basic skills. For example, when the skater performs a triple lutz, a judge says how well the skater performs it (on something like a 1-5 scale), and the computer figures out how much to add to the score. Theoretically, the judge may not even realize whom he/she is making the winner. The 6 or 7 parts that make up the presentation score would also be evaluated one by one. In this system, there is no maximum score, but there are world records etc.

One of the criticisms was that the new system would place too much emphasize on jumping; I say the devil is in the details. You could design a system where, say, the jumps after the 6th only add a little to the score; the judge would not need to keep track of this, the computer would take care of it. You could design a system where the judges would be forced to evaluate the skaters' basic edging and make it a large portion of the score. Or you could design a system that totally sucks and converts figure skating into "figure jumping".

I think they were also saying that a skater would be able to perform a program before a special committee, and be told what the maximum score for that particular program would be. All in all, this system would be similar to the gymnastics.

Theoretically, this system can also make judges more accountable. Instead of saying, "I marked this skater low because I do not think she skates well", the judge would need to explain every portion of his/her marks: why they gave a low mark for a particular jump, or why they gave a high mark for "expression of music".

Will it work? I am afraid not. But it definitely has good potential.
 
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anastasiabeaverhoussen

Guest
Thanks!!

Thank you for all the information. The second part of his plan actually sounds interesting with scoring each move individually and having the computer add it up. It may make for some surprising podiums! But I don't like the anonymous judging this year, complaining about the judges is half the fun :lol:
 
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DORISPULASKI

Guest
Re: Thanks!!

rgirl, I really like the compulsory qualifier idea! BTW, there were about 40 or 41 ladies, total, whittled down to 30 for the SP, whittled down to 24 for the LP. And they run Qualifier A back to back with Qualifier B, so they do run all 40 ladies on one day. So if they are going to keep the qualifier, I see no reason for the A and B groupings (just run one huge grouping) unless to cheat or manipulate the scores. Another way to look at it would be to say that allowing MK to win the huge total qualifier would have put her too far ahead...but not if it reduces to ordinals. And they could weight the SP and Qual lower and the LP higher too, in order to make the LP more exciting.
Ptichka, thanks for the insight on Plush. In which case, Klimkin is doing it because Plush is? Who may be doing it because Yagudin did?

dpp
 
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mathman444

Guest
Re: New rules

Ptichka, ITA with everything in your post about the points-per-element scoring method. Although it has potential for disaster, I think that it could work out just fine. I think that there are also points to be awarded for overall speed and ice coverage, musical interpretation, etc., so it needn't degenate into just a jumping contest.

Mathman
 
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