Thoughts on Evgenia Medvedeva's 2018-19 Season

moriel · Oct 10, 2018

el henry said:
Let’s see, why does Orser have international “PR”?

Two time Olympic gold medalist and world gold medalist.... from Japan.

Two time world gold medalist and Olympic bronze ..... from Spain.

Numerous other skaters from numerous other countries. All training at an international training center in Canada. So his reputation is based on results.

Could that possibly be a reason for Zhenya training there? :think:

naaah, it’s just PR

TAT, who has much more star students does not have such international PR, same for Mishin.

chopinskate · Oct 10, 2018

It's just so utterly confusing for this "debate" to 1) drag on, 2) have such scathing, awful responses from either side, and 3) have people care so deeply that it produces responses at such a profuse rate. Utterly confusing.

KiraraChin · Oct 10, 2018

Off-topic, but that reminds me of this very sweet interview with Tracy Wilson in 2016. Who've have thought they would end up working together!

https://youtu.be/vDThV9e20uc

andromache · Oct 10, 2018

moriel said:
TAT, who has much more star students does not have such international PR, same for Mishin.

Mishin has Liza and a few younger skaters who haven't proven themselves yet. He's also assisted a veteran Carolina with regaining her jumps.

TAT....who does TAT have?

Both Mishin and TAT are old school. They are legends and have a ton of international cred, but mostly for what they did under 6.0, not IJS. Similar to Frank Carroll, Carlo Fassi, John Nicks. In 2018, you have to pick someone with proven success under IJS.

The anti-Orser sentiment as if Orser hasn't accomplished anything during his coaching career is just ridiculous.

chopinskate · Oct 10, 2018

andromache said:
This debate is just ridiculous.

Fixed.

Fluture · Oct 10, 2018

halulupu said:
totally agree. zhenya is a star. she has something to tell, she showed personality, she is risking everything. zagitova is "just" another teenager OG. Howerver very beautiful, give her 2 more years, some bitter defeats and she will be a star

You know, Yulia Lipnitskaya was also ”just another teenager OGM“ according to you. Yet, she is a legend. Alina isn’t on Yulia‘s popularity level but saying that she‘s just the small girl who won the Olympics and needs years and “bitter defeats“ to become a star is just awful. She had bitter defeats, she had downs, she struggled a lot and she overcame it by working hard and winning the big prize in the end. She‘s young but that doesn‘t mean her achievements shouldn‘t be valued. Any Olympic Champion is a star already. Why shouldn‘t it count for her?

I know you aren‘t trying to offend Alina but it honestly doesn‘t give a good impression if you talk about her as if winning the Olympics at a teenage age was nothing and she needs to further prove herself. She is the reigning Olympic Champion. Whatever people say, she doesn‘t need to prove anything. She is a star already and her name will be remembered.

moriel · Oct 10, 2018

andromache said:
Mishin has Liza and a few younger skaters who haven't proven themselves yet. He's also assisted a veteran Carolina with regaining her jumps.

TAT....who does TAT have?

Both Mishin and TAT are old school. They are legends and have a ton of international cred, but mostly for what they did under 6.0, not IJS. Similar to Frank Carroll, Carlo Fassi, John Nicks. In 2018, you have to pick someone with proven success under IJS.

The anti-Orser sentiment as if Orser hasn't accomplished anything during his coaching career is just ridiculous.

I dont think there is any anti-Orser sentiment.
But the thing is, Orser had no sucessful female students since Yuna, who left him nearly 10 years ago, and it is just ridiculous how people refuse to aknowledge this.

Yes, he is the best coach for men right now. Honestly, I would be critical if Hanyu, for example, decided that he needs a change and moved to Eteri. Yes, she is the best coach for ladies right now, but she has yet to prove she can successfully coach male students, and if a man decides to train with her just because two of her students got top 2 at Olympics, i will be sceptical about the rationality of such decision.

UPD:
Just in case, repeating. People brought several examples of coaches saying that coaching men and women is different. Also, we see many top coaches who have mostly great male students, or mostly great female students, but not both. This leads me to think that coaching men and women can different, and the fact that a coach is great with men does not necessarely mean he is great with ladies.

sjchilly · Oct 10, 2018

The biggest Team Orser advantage I saw at the Olympics was how well they prepared each skater as they stepped out on the ice. I think any skater would want that kind of calm attention to detail before some of the most important performances of their lives.

Mrs. P · Oct 10, 2018

TAT did have international PR at one time. That's why you had people like Sasha Cohen and Mao Asada being coached by her. I think a few other international skaters were coached by her as well.

Why can't people accept that Zhenya just simply had a gut feeling and felt good being coached by Orser and his team. She clearly likes the approach and wants to give it a try. Not sure what the big deal is.

andromache · Oct 10, 2018

moriel said:
I dont think there is any anti-Orser sentiment.
But the thing is, Orser had no sucessful female students since Yuna, who left him nearly 10 years ago, and it is just ridiculous how people refuse to aknowledge this.

Yes, he is the best coach for men right now. Honestly, I would be critical if Hanyu, for example, decided that he needs a change and moved to Eteri. Yes, she is the best coach for ladies right now, but she has yet to prove she can successfully coach male students, and if a man decides to train with her just because two of her students got top 2 at Olympics, i will be sceptical about the rationality of such decision.

UPD:
Just in case, repeating. People brought several examples of coaches saying that coaching men and women is different. Also, we see many top coaches who have mostly great male students, or mostly great female students, but not both. This leads me to think that coaching men and women can different, and the fact that a coach is great with men does not necessarely mean he is great with ladies.

He hasn't worked with many ladies since Yuna. Elisabet and Gabby are the main ones. Gabby has had some pretty high highs and some low lows (not sure if her primary coach is Orser though, and I think some of her problems are due to her personal life). Elisabet just wasn't a good fit. Neither was Adam Rippon, who struggled with Orser but did great with Raf.

Orser and Tracy approach their students as individuals, not just as "male skater" or "female skater." Coaching Javi and coaching Yuzu are two totally different things! As is coaching Evgenia, I'm sure.

Besides, other than Eteri, there really aren't any coaches who are known for their strength in coaching ladies. If there was an "Eteri for grown-ups" out there, Evgenia probably would've decided to go to that person.

Fluture · Oct 10, 2018

moriel said:
I dont think there is any anti-Orser sentiment.
But the thing is, Orser had no sucessful female students since Yuna, who left him nearly 10 years ago, and it is just ridiculous how people refuse to aknowledge this.

Yes, he is the best coach for men right now. Honestly, I would be critical if Hanyu, for example, decided that he needs a change and moved to Eteri. Yes, she is the best coach for ladies right now, but she has yet to prove she can successfully coach male students, and if a man decides to train with her just because two of her students got top 2 at Olympics, i will be sceptical about the rationality of such decision.

UPD:
Just in case, repeating. People brought several examples of coaches saying that coaching men and women is different. Also, we see many top coaches who have mostly great male students, or mostly great female students, but not both. This leads me to think that coaching men and women can different, and the fact that a coach is great with men does not necessarely mean he is great with ladies.

Okay, but according to you which coach should she have gone to that wouldn‘t have been a step-down from Eteri? And don‘t tell me ”well, maybe she shouldn‘t have left at all“ I‘m not going to buy this.

And what I think about this whole debate is that Zhenya herself presented a few reasons. One was Yuna Kim. Debatable since the two of them are pretty different but her opinion. And then in her interview with goldenskate when asked about considering other coaches she said “no, only Brian.“ And she went on to explain that she saw how he worked, liked his personality. She also talked to Javi a lot. You don‘t just choose a coach based on how many OGMs or World Champions he‘s trained. Sure, that is a point to consider as well but it‘s also the personality of a trainer you have to like, the way he interacts with students, the way he works. Because I‘m pretty sure that even if you have a coach that trained a lot of champions and is very well known you won‘t achieve any results if you don’t like to work with them. I think it was a mixture of these things. She was looking for a change, looking for someone that wasn‘t a step-down from Eteri, for someone that is experienced in coaching adults and someone she personally likes and could imagine to work with. And she chose Brian and she‘s happy with the decision.

BillNeal · Oct 10, 2018

moriel said:
But the thing is, Orser had no sucessful female students since Yuna, who left him nearly 10 years ago, and it is just ridiculous how people refuse to aknowledge this.

Let's not forget about Gabby Daleman. Remarkable improvement both technically and artistically that she has shown since going to Orser, going from 21st at Worlds to a top 10 finish every year since, even winning a bronze in 2017, right behind Osmond and Med. I think even you can agree that a pre-Olympic World medal in a tough field is a quite an accomplishment.

chopinskate · Oct 10, 2018

Mrs. P said:
Why can't people accept that Zhenya just simply had a gut feeling and felt good being coached by Orser and his team. She clearly likes the approach and wants to give it a try. Not sure what the big deal is.

Because people need something to talk about and lose their minds over. And evolution.

1. https://www.quora.com/Why-do-people-care-about-celebrities

2. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/.../why-caring-about-celebrities-can-be-good-you

(Rhetorical?)

moriel · Oct 10, 2018

If we rank coaches over the last quad, for example, by medals in ladies, we have something like this.

Eteri is by far the one with most medals.
Ravi Walia did a really great job with Osmond (speaking of long career and skating past 18).

Eteri:
Olympic Gold and Silver
2WG (Medvedeva)
3GPF Gold

Ravi Walia:
Olympic Bronze
1WG (Osmond)
1WS (Osmond)
1GPF Bronze

Mishin:
1WG (Tuktamysheva)
1GPF Gold

Mie Hamada:
1WS (Satoko)
1WB (Satoko)
2GPF Silver

Arutyunyan:
1WS (Wagner)
1GPF Bronze

Koji Okajima:
1WS (Wakaba)

Goncharenko:
1WB (Radionova)
1 GPF Silver
1 GPF Bronze

Tsareva:
1WB (Pogorilaya)
1 GPF Bronze

Orser:
1WB (Daleman)

Buianova:
1 GPF Silver

moriel · Oct 10, 2018

BillNeal said:
Let's not forget about Gabby Daleman. Remarkable improvement both technically and artistically that she has shown since going to Orser, going from 21st at Worlds to a top 10 finish every year since, even winning a bronze in 2017, right behind Osmond and Med. I think even you can agree that a pre-Olympic World medal in a tough field is a quite an accomplishment.

Compare with Osmond, and Ravi Walia's work with her.
Both were below 10 at 2014 olympics. Also, Osmond had a major injury, and is older than Daleman.

Sugar Coated · Oct 10, 2018

From my experience in a different sport, female coaches are often tougher on girls than male coaches. Men often feel uncomfortable yelling at teenage or preteen girls and I think also underestimate their physical capabilities. Women and girls are also more likely to cry - whether it’s how we’re wired or how we’re socialized. This seems to scare men or make them uncomfortable when in reality it’s just a reaction to stress. It doesn’t mean they need to pull back or change or that something is necessarily wrong. I think women are less intimidated by crying.

yoloaxel · Oct 10, 2018

Orser is a top coach.

Eteri is a top coach.

Evgenia is a top skater.

There's no point comparing either of them to others because each situation is pretty unique - Eteri had students fail, Orser had students fail. Only time will tell what will happen to Zhenya - it's that simple.

andromache · Oct 10, 2018

moriel said:
Compare with Osmond, and Ravi Walia's work with her.
Both were below 10 at 2014 olympics. Also, Osmond had a major injury, and is older than Daleman.

Success with one skater (I have no idea who else Ravi has worked with aside from Kaetlyn) doesn't translate to success with multiple skaters.

Not to mention having experience coaching with a language barrier and dealing with international federations.

I don't know why it's so hard just to accept that even though you might not have chosen Orser, obviously Evgenia did and they both seem happy.

halulupu · Oct 10, 2018

Fluture said:
You know, Yulia Lipnitskaya was also ”just another teenager OGM“ according to you. Yet, she is a legend. Alina isn’t on Yulia‘s popularity level but saying that she‘s just the small girl who won the Olympics and needs years and “bitter defeats“ to become a star is just awful. She had bitter defeats, she had downs, she struggled a lot and she overcame it by working hard and winning the big prize in the end. She‘s young but that doesn‘t mean her achievements shouldn‘t be valued. Any Olympic Champion is a star already. Why shouldn‘t it count for her?

I know you aren‘t trying to offend Alina but it honestly doesn‘t give a good impression if you talk about her as if winning the Olympics at a teenage age was nothing and she needs to further prove herself. She is the reigning Olympic Champion. Whatever people say, she doesn‘t need to prove anything. She is a star already and her name will be remembered.

easy. please read my post in the context. it was about media interest and not about being fair. and yes in the eye of the media zhenya is the star who got bittlerly beaten from the teenage cute beautiful jumping wonder. Its obviously the better story than the "next russian teenager wonder". And why do you think julia became such a legend? because she was the emotional favourit to win sotschi and she failed, split with her coach, had terrible health issuses, came back etc. - again much better story than the "just" OG sotnikova. Why is julia the legend and not sotnikova, who obectively achived so much more then julia.

but back to zhenya: if she comes back wins something big she going to be legend. and she will

DSQ · Oct 10, 2018

chopinskate said:
Because people need something to talk about and lose their minds over. And evolution.

1. https://www.quora.com/Why-do-people-care-about-celebrities

2. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/.../why-caring-about-celebrities-can-be-good-you

(Rhetorical?)

I don’t think we need to go that far! I just thought it was an interesting question to pose (famous students aside what is good about Orser? Answer: He approaches his students as individuals. For some it is the best approach if you’re disciplined.), I didn’t realise how touchy it was going to be.

We can move on now if you like and I’ll start.

I really really liked Medvedeva’s SP costume at ACI. I wonder if she’ll do what she used to do and have several different costumes made throughout the season? I liked how she had a black and maroon Anna Karenina dress that she switched about.

Thoughts on Evgenia Medvedeva's 2018-19 Season

moriel

chopinskate

KiraraChin

andromache

chopinskate

Fluture

moriel

sjchilly

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

andromache

Fluture

BillNeal

You Know I'm a FS Fan...

chopinskate

moriel

moriel

Sugar Coated

yoloaxel

andromache

halulupu

DSQ

Similar threads

Connect with us