Thoughts on Evgenia Medvedeva's 2018-19 Season

moriel · Sep 30, 2018

vorravorra said:
I think the emptiness may be temporary, they can add transitions when she is up to skating them physically, she needs to get in shape. But it's such a hard music to interpret. I wish they would have chosen something simpler for such a difficult season too.

Yep, i think a smarter choice would have an out of the box SP, and then keeping the LP usual Zhenya style, maybe even get Averbukh still to choreograph it.
This would give her more time to get comfortable with the new stuff, since one of the programs would be something she is used to and knows well how to do.

Yoa said:
TCC has dance classes available. There's even a competitive dance program. They also have other off-ice training options like pilates, fitness, yoga. Skaters can also use pool if they want to (water-fitness, sports injury rehabilitation). There's a training complex: 1, 2, 3. TCC also has health services: physiotherapy, nutrition counceling etc. After Yuzuru injured himself last season, he got rehabilitation and full injury treatment offer from one of the best rehabilitation centers in Tokyo. But he decided to get treatment and rehabilitation in Toronto before and after Olympics. And Evgenia can still use the same costume designer if she wants to. David Wilson is available at TCC almost all the time (that's why they decided to go with him) so he can quickly make changes in choreogragraphy. And there are many international skaters in TCC so I am sure that coaches know how to deal with language barrier

I think there may be some difference in organization. Russian clubs tend to have everything organized for a skater, while the NA system leaves it a bit more to the skater to decide what to do where and how.
This may be a major problem short term, since the skaters are more used to basically get everything planned by their coaching team.

Jeanie19 · Sep 30, 2018

I think that Evgenia's team should think about next season. I think her sp should have a more Russian theme like her Cookoo exhibition or at the very least should be Averbuch as co- choreographer. And her long should have Sandra and David. It should be musical or Light to show that side of her skating. Evgenia should show both east and west style. That would make her unique. Also the 2016-2017 was her best season. Her sp and lp showed two different sides. Light and dramatic .

TGee · Sep 30, 2018

moriel said:
Because russian team.
She will not get any support from fed to sit out the whole season, because they have other skaters, and then they have a few new top seniors next season.

But she totally could not do early CSs, imho, and maybe even skipping GP without losing the fed's support.

I don't think the RusFed insists on layback to bielmann as a mandatory element.

As long as she's doing level 4 spins across the board with good GOE , I think she will satisfy any expectations. Frankly, spins were not previously where she maximized her score.

No one has suggested she should or will sit the season out. Seriously...

There's a big difference between being

1) strategic in the choice of elements included in Zhenya's competitive programs to avoid those ones that are likely to aggravate her injury and cause setbacks (i.e. layback to bielmann spin, 3Lo)

vs

2) punting the season and lowering the overall technical level of her programs.

Why do folks rush to assume the latter base on an early season Challenger Series event?

moriel · Sep 30, 2018

TGee said:
I don't think the RusFed insists on layback to bielmann as a mandatory element.

As long as she's doing level 4 spins across the board with good GOE , I think she will satisfy any expectations. Frankly, spins were not previously where she maximized her score.

No one has suggested she should or will sit the season out. Seriously...

There's a big difference between being

1) strategic in the choice of elements included in Zhenya's competitive programs to avoid those ones that are likely to aggravate her injury and cause setbacks (i.e. layback to bielmann spin, 3Lo)

vs

2) punting the season and lowering the overall technical level of her programs.

Why do folks rush to assume the latter base on an early season Challenger Series event?

Sorry, i understood your "why risk doing it often enough to be competition-ready this season" as sitting out the season, because i do not think it is a good idea for ladies, where the PCs have a huge reputation component, to compete while not competition ready.

As for assuming stuff... We assume the latter because we are used to the Eteri style, where the skater only competes when she is competition ready. When there is something final-ish to present. You cannot imagine an Eteri girl skating to a program where half of the transitions are out because there was no time to work on that. Yes, stuff get polished over the season, but the first showing is already some 80-90% of the final product.

TGee · Sep 30, 2018

moriel said:
Sorry, i understood your "why risk doing it often enough to be competition-ready this season" as sitting out the season, because i do not think it is a good idea for ladies, where the PCs have a huge reputation component, to compete while not competition ready.

As for assuming stuff... We assume the latter because we are used to the Eteri style, where the skater only competes when she is competition ready. When there is something final-ish to present. You cannot imagine an Eteri girl skating to a program where half of the transitions are out because there was no time to work on that. Yes, stuff get polished over the season, but the first showing is already some 80-90% of the final product.

I get where you are coming from.

It's a very different philosophy or strategy from the typical Russian approach. But it is real, not just hype, and there is a lot of evidence to back that.

But for those of us used to following the progress of TCC's skaters through the season, this is normal. We've seen Yuzuru Hanyu peak late in the season many times and yet his achievements are indisputable.

I can't see it as a matter of trust, any more than it would be to say that Mishin will have a skater ditch a program if it is proven not to work at a Challenger Series or GP event. Mishin's done it, and we know he would do it again. Brian's doing what he's done before, so we know how this can work.

All that said, I would say Zhenya is further behind than TCC skaters normally would be. More where we'd expect a skater to be if they come to the Canadian summer series in July or August, but she started training late.

So I would expect her peak arc to start at the GP final and nationals, with continued refinements through Europeans and Nationals.

At the moment, they are simply working to make sure she qualifies for the GP Final.

melgirl25 · Sep 30, 2018

TGee said:
I get where you are coming from.

It's a very different philosophy or strategy from the typical Russian approach. But it is real, not just hype, and there is a lot of evidence to back that.

But for those of us used to following the progress of TCC's skaters through the season, this is normal. We've seen Yuzuru Hanyu peak late in the season many times and yet his achievements are indisputable.

I can't see it as a matter of trust, any more than it would be to say that Mishin will have a skater ditch a program if it is proven not to work at a Challenger Series or GP event. Mishin's done it, and we know he would do it again. Brian's doing what he's done before, so we know how this can work.

All that said, I would say Zhenya is further behind than TCC skaters normally would be. More where we'd expect a skater to be if they come to the Canadian summer series in July or August, but she started training late.

So I would expect her peak arc to start at the GP final and nationals, with continued refinements through Europeans and Nationals.

At the moment, they are simply working to make sure she qualifies for the GP Final.

I would be very happy if she made it to the Grand Prix Final and peaked at Russian Nationals.

lavoix · Sep 30, 2018

Yelim Kim's SP was choreographed by David Wilson, that music again would have suited Evghenia more - I just can't help but think this current SP is too childish.

melgirl25 · Sep 30, 2018

lavoix said:
Yelim Kim's SP was choreographed by David Wilson, that music again would have suited Evghenia more - I just can't help but think this current SP is too childish.

I don't see it as childish, may be something I would use more for an exhibition rather than short program. Jazz piece WITH lyrics is a huge shift for her. I don't recall any other competitive programs with lyrics for her.

moriel · Sep 30, 2018

lavoix said:
Yelim Kim's SP was choreographed by David Wilson, that music again would have suited Evghenia more - I just can't help but think this current SP is too childish.

I think it could be fairly mature. I mean, imagine someone like Ashley Wagner performing it.

The issue with Zhenya is that she never really did sexy and playful stuff, so she looks like a kid in that, way too serious and not natural. It may get better over the season once she has more time to work on it, or maybe it will not get better this season at all because it is too early for her, but next season she will kill it, or maybe it is just out of her artistic range and she will never manage it. Lets wait and see.

melgirl25 · Sep 30, 2018

moriel said:
I think it could be fairly mature. I mean, imagine someone like Ashley Wagner performing it.

The issue with Zhenya is that she never really did sexy and playful stuff, so she looks like a kid in that, way too serious and not natural. It may get better over the season once she has more time to work on it, or maybe it will not get better this season at all because it is too early for her, but next season she will kill it, or maybe it is just out of her artistic range and she will never manage it. Lets wait and see.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4zumww

have you seen this?

moriel · Sep 30, 2018

melgirl25 said:
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4zumww

have you seen this?

yep.
this is imho a bit childish, and also done under team Eteri, who is known for explaining programs to skaters in details (reported by both Zhenya and Alina).

vorravorra · Sep 30, 2018

moriel said:
I think it could be fairly mature. I mean, imagine someone like Ashley Wagner performing it.

The issue with Zhenya is that she never really did sexy and playful stuff, so she looks like a kid in that, way too serious and not natural. It may get better over the season once she has more time to work on it, or maybe it will not get better this season at all because it is too early for her, but next season she will kill it, or maybe it is just out of her artistic range and she will never manage it. Lets wait and see.

It's not a program that can work if you are nervous and have to mentally control your every movement. I would like her to move past that stage and then re-evaluate the program.

moriel · Sep 30, 2018

vorravorra said:
It's not a program that can work if you are nervous and have to mentally control your every movement. I would like her to move past that stage and then re-evaluate the program.

yep, as i said, we have to wait and see how it goes.
there is a month left, which is a lot of time to work on it.

TGee · Sep 30, 2018

moriel said:
yep, as i said, we have to wait and see how it goes.

I suspect that Zhenya herself and the TCC group are thinking along the same lines. One gets the sense that they are testing out some things as they go. It will better inform their choices for next season.

Zhenya had some things she wanted to try (Libertango) and some ambition to try out a more mature style - so they proposed the jazzy SP.

TCC seems to have decided that they needed to bring in Sandra Bezic to help with the expression and gestures on the short program. Which suggests both that they are open to bring in extra skill sets if she needs it and that opening up to this kind of expression is challenging her. (We may see them bringing in acting coaches or sending her to Marie-France Dubreuil in the off season down the line as they did for Lubov Ilyushechkina.)

Zhenya has mentioned in an interview that the SP is pushing her in terms of quicker footwork. So it's exposed something they need to work on with her to broaden her range, while working on it throughout this season.

moriel · Sep 30, 2018

my main worry about the "test and see how it goes strategy" are the rusfed reactions.

for example, right after the test skates, TAT was like "well, we know and trust Zhenya, she doesn't even need to go to rus nats" and "Alina's eyes are not shining".
after the lastest CSs, she switched to "Alina skated like the olympic champion she is".

Zhenya's career heavily depends on rusfed due to the limit of spots at worlds and euros, and whatever she does, she cannot become russia's #3 or #4.
Said that, even Tchaikovskaia admitted that, while spots #1 and #2 are based on result only, the #3 spot is heavily politiking (so basically used to reward the russian coaches who fed wants to reward, see Sotskova's and Konstantinova's scores).

Biting my nails and waiting till the GP.

TGee · Sep 30, 2018

I do grant that there is inherent uncertainty. We're all hoping that enough can be done to get her through the GPs with enough points.

Zhenya is a bit of an unknown to both TCC and herself, and Russian nationals are early as compared to North American. Both of these do add to the risk, and one has to acknowledge that.

That said, TCC has been very good about getting Gabby one of the Worlds berths by placing top two at Nationals year after year. And that is in spite of what turns out to be an underlying chronic health issue that had been undiagnosed until this summer. Canada hasn't had depth in ladies, but with 3 going for 2 spots year after year, they've demonstrated that they can manage the tactics of timing the peak.

And before 2014 they had a similar challenge getting Hanyu on the national podium in Japan.

neusw · Sep 30, 2018

TGee said:
I do grant that there is inherent uncertainty. We're all hoping that enough can be done to get her through the GPs with enough points.

Zhenya is a bit of an unknown to both TCC and herself, and Russian nationals are early as compared to North American. Both of these do add to the risk, and one has to acknowledge that.

That said, TCC has been very good about getting Gabby one of the Worlds berths by placing top two at Nationals year after year. And that is in spite of what turns out to be an underlying chronic health issue that had been undiagnosed until this summer. Canada hasn't had depth in ladies, but with 3 going for 2 spots year after year, they've demonstrated that they can manage the tactics of timing the peak.

And before 2014 they had a similar challenge getting Hanyu on the national podium in Japan.

While that may be true, I really think Russian ladies is a whole 'nother beast from Japanese men. On top of that, consistency is hugely important in Russia due to the sheer volume of girls who can throw down perfect programs day in, day out. I think the Russian fed will continue to expect the top girls they send to Euros and Worlds to be ultra-consistent (occasional falls from quads not-withstanding). As good as the TCC team is, their skaters are not exactly renowned for their consistency--even their absolute top notch skaters. Even peak Yuna could be up-and-down all season, and Hanyu has definitely been all over the place. They cater towards short-term peaking, which can work when your status in the country is solid, but may not be enough to inspire confidence from the Russian fed.

NoviceFan · Sep 30, 2018

neusw said:
While that may be true, I really think Russian ladies is a whole 'nother beast from Japanese men. On top of that, consistency is hugely important in Russia due to the sheer volume of girls who can throw down perfect programs day in, day out. I think the Russian fed will continue to expect the top girls they send to Euros and Worlds to be ultra-consistent (occasional falls from quads not-withstanding). As good as the TCC team is, their skaters are not exactly renowned for their consistency--even their absolute top notch skaters. Even peak Yuna could be up-and-down all season, and Hanyu has definitely been all over the place. They cater towards short-term peaking, which can work when your status in the country is solid, but may not be enough to inspire confidence from the Russian fed.

I appreciate this point of view. But I would like to throw in there that, Evgenia’s strength had been her consistency. She is understandably not consistent now - but once she gets her bearing back, she will hopefully regain her consistency. I mean to say, that, being in TCC should not supplant all of Evgenia’s qualities. I think she’s always stood out because of her mental strength, the ability to deliver when it matters. Many skaters fall apart because of pressure... we have seen many...

TGee · Sep 30, 2018

NoviceFan said:
I appreciate this point of view. But I would like to throw in there that, Evgenia’s strength had been her consistency. She is understandably not consistent now - but once she gets her bearing back, she will hopefully regain her consistency. I mean to say, that, being in TCC should not supplant all of Evgenia’s qualities. I think she’s always stood out because of her mental strength, the ability to deliver when it matters. Many skaters fall apart because of pressure... we have seen many...

Absolutely...

As time goes on we should see Zhenya's own strengths show through.

That she is a gritty and determined competitor is a fact.

She's not likely to be comfortable with a roller coaster, and as she takes ownership of her strategy with Brian's support, in future seasons I expect to see a continuous and smooth improvement through and less uncertainty.

neusw · Sep 30, 2018

NoviceFan said:
I appreciate this point of view. But I would like to throw in there that, Evgenia’s strength had been her consistency. She is understandably not consistent now - but once she gets her bearing back, she will hopefully regain her consistency. I mean to say, that, being in TCC should not supplant all of Evgenia’s qualities. I think she’s always stood out because of her mental strength, the ability to deliver when it matters. Many skaters fall apart because of pressure... we have seen many...

Oh I absolutely agree that she will not completely lose her consistency overnight. One does not simply unlearn what was built over 11 years, good or bad

I am only looking at the general trends of both skating schools. We have a large sample size of skaters who are inconsistent or moderately consistent go to Eteri and, within as short as a few months, suddenly turn up to multiple competitions with high consistency. Whatever her methods are, they've worked for many skaters in this arena. I would even go so far as to say that building consistency is her primary strength as a coach. This is something that TCC definitely does not prioritize, and now the Med is following entirely different training methods, we may not see the same results. You can be the mentally strongest person in the world, but if the necessary level of muscle memory isn't there, it won't matter.

Thoughts on Evgenia Medvedeva's 2018-19 Season

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