Thoughts on Evgenia Medvedeva's 2018-19 Season

el henry · Sep 30, 2018

neusw said:
Oh I absolutely agree that she will not completely lose her consistency overnight. One does not simply unlearn what was built over 11 years, good or bad

I am only looking at the general trends of both skating schools. We have a large sample size of skaters who are inconsistent or moderately consistent go to Eteri and, within as short as a few months, suddenly turn up to multiple competitions with high consistency. Whatever her methods are, they've worked for many skaters in this arena. I would even go so far as to say that building consistency is her primary strength as a coach. This is something that TCC definitely does not prioritize, and now the Med is following entirely different training methods, we may not see the same results.

Building consistency is not TCC's primary strength???

I mean, I can't even with that statement:shocked::shocked::shocked:

And I guess the sun doesn't rise in the east either........

neusw · Sep 30, 2018

el henry said:
Building consistency is not TCC's primary strength???

I mean, I can't even with that statement:shocked::shocked::shocked:

And I guess the sun doesn't rise in the east either........

Please give me an example of any skater from TCC who has managed to be consistent through an entire season. How many TCC skaters are ready to go in September/October, or skate mistake free in their GP assignments?

No, building season-long consistency is not TCC's primary strength. Their primary strength is in taking a holistic approach to "perfecting" a skater with great technical gifts. They excel in overall packaging, polishing, and artistic development, as well as improvement of basic skating skills. These are qualities that I would not assign to the Eteri school, but Eteri is certainly brilliant at milking the absolute most out of a scoring system, and a big part of achieving that is by demonstrating to the judges again and again that you can skate a program mistake-free.

el henry · Sep 30, 2018

neusw said:
Please give me an example of any skater from TCC who has managed to be consistent through an entire season. How many TCC skaters are ready to go in September/October, or skate mistake free in their GP assignments?

No, building season-long consistency is not TCC's primary strength. Their primary strength is in taking a holistic approach to "perfecting" a skater with great technical gifts. They excel in overall packaging, polishing, and artistic development, as well as improvement of basic skating skills. These are qualities that I would not assign to the Eteri school, but Eteri is certainly brilliant at milking the absolute most out of a scoring system, and a big part of achieving that is by demonstrating to the judges again and again that you can skate a program mistake-free.

Our definitions of consistency differ.

For me, it is consistency over the four year Olympic cycle, and although it's fun to see a skater do well in a Challenger comp, I don't rely on that and in the end don't form my opinion on it.

Two OGMs over four years is consistency in my book, not slaying a Challenger right out of the gate. JMO.

neusw · Sep 30, 2018

el henry said:
Our definitions of consistency differ.

For me, it is consistency over the four year Olympic cycle, and although it's fun to see a skater do well in a Challenger comp, I don't rely on that and in the end don't form my opinion on it.

Two OGMs over four years is consistency in my book, not slaying a Challenger right out of the gate. JMO.

Of course no one cares about Challenger competitions. Hanyu's 2 OGMs is irrelevant as an example because he's not competing with about 10 other Hanyu-level skaters in Japan who can all throw down the same technical content regularly. Not to mention that Hanyu didn't exactly win his 2 OGMs because of perfect performances. The extremely high level of consistency we're talking about here doesn't really matter in men's, where it's more about who manages to land all their 1032498109 quads on any given day.

If you had read my previous posts, you would understand that I'm not talking over a 4 year period because Russian ladies turnover is at warp speed, and each year there is a new crop of young Russian ladies who could challenge for Euro/World sports. In this case, it may be important to the Russian fed to demonstrate consistency day in, day out.

anonymoose_au · Sep 30, 2018

moriel said:
my main worry about the "test and see how it goes strategy" are the rusfed reactions.

for example, right after the test skates, TAT was like "well, we know and trust Zhenya, she doesn't even need to go to rus nats" and "Alina's eyes are not shining".
after the lastest CSs, she switched to "Alina skated like the olympic champion she is".

Seriously? TAT should have gone into gymnastics, I haven't seen that much flip-flopping since the Summer Olympics!

Zhenya's career heavily depends on rusfed due to the limit of spots at worlds and euros, and whatever she does, she cannot become russia's #3 or #4.
Said that, even Tchaikovskaia admitted that, while spots #1 and #2 are based on result only, the #3 spot is heavily politiking (so basically used to reward the russian coaches who fed wants to reward, see Sotskova's and Konstantinova's scores).

Biting my nails and waiting till the GP.

That...seems borderline illegal? Like...not throw into jail illegal, but not fairplay sportswise. The third best skater should be the third best skater, not a skater who just happens to have the third best coach or whatever. I'd have thought the ISU would be totally against that sort of thing, although I guess it's not the sort of thing that's easy to prove.

Sam-Skwantch · Sep 30, 2018

el henry said:
Our definitions of consistency differ.

Doesn’t really matter what we think. It’s how the RusFed determines what defines consistency that will be of consequence. Battling for only three spots for the ladies field in Russia is bound to create some uncertainty and reduce the room for error to almost none. It will be of utmost importance not to create a loss of momentum. There are more than a handful of her direct domestic competitors who are capable of going clean in both programs. That will put her PCS advantage to the test.

I’m not saying I’m worried or not BTW but I’ve watched every Russian Nationals since about 2012 and I would be lying if I didn’t confess a little concern. Top ten are often pretty clean these days

neusw · Sep 30, 2018

anonymoose_au said:
That...seems borderline illegal? Like...not throw into jail illegal, but not fairplay sportswise. The third best skater should be the third best skater, not a skater who just happens to have the third best coach or whatever. I'd have thought the ISU would be totally against that sort of thing, although I guess it's not the sort of thing that's easy to prove.

Welcome to mother Russia? haha

How else could you explain Konstantinova getting JWC and WC spots....

Mrs. P · Sep 30, 2018

Zhenya is definitely in a bit of uncharted territory and yes the recent statistics are not in her favor to overcome them. But that's kind of the fun of the challenge for me -- not that she's there for my amusement of course.

Irina Slutskaya is a big reason I hope she overcomes that challenge. Her 2005 Worlds win (and that season in general) was probably one of the most exciting in figure skating given the challenges she overcame leading up to it. Yes, yes, she was not dealing with a deep field in Russia back then, but still it was exciting. I was on a break from skating then, but I've gone back and realize how fun it is to see her evolve from when she was a young upstart back in the 1998 Olympics to one of the most veteran skaters in 2006 Olympics. To be clear, I'm talking strictly about their career trajectory -- cause I can hear somebody say, "But Irina had XYZ.... and She didn't compete in a deep field, etc" My point is that I think it would be quite a story if she managed to overcome a flood of young skaters and made it to 2022.

Nobody said it was an easy goal to get to 2022, but obviously Zhenya knows what she signed up for. Besides, what's the alternative at this point? Give up? Stay with Eteri and be the shadow of whatever up-and-comer rules the JGP/dominates the world field at the moment? Zhenya probably remembers how it was for other skaters when SHE was the up-and-comer.

At least at TCC, she gets to work with other skaters around the world, improve her English, develop different aspects of her skating and try new things. At her age, that's pretty thrilling, I'm sure. Not to mention the fact that she won't have any regrets --- there won't be any "What would have happened if I got coached by Brian Orser?" Even if she doesn't make the 2022 Olympic team, she can say she made a go for it.

NoviceFan · Sep 30, 2018

Mrs. P said:
Zhenya is definitely in a bit of uncharted territory and yes the recent statistics are not in her favor to overcome them. But that's kind of the fun of the challenge for me -- not that she's there for my amusement of course.

Irina Slutskaya is a big reason I hope she overcomes that challenge. Her 2005 Worlds win (and that season in challenge) was probably one of the most exciting in figure skating given the challenges she overcame leading up to it. Yes, yes, she was not dealing with a deep field in Russia back then, but still it was exciting. I was on a break from skating then, but I've gone back and realize how fun it is to see her evolve from when she was a young upstart back in the 1998 Olympics to one of the most veteran skaters in 2006 Olympics. To be clear, I'm talking strictly about their career trajectory -- cause I can hear somebody say, "But Irina had XYZ.... and She didn't compete in a deep field, etc" My point is that I think it would be quite a story if she managed to overcome a flood of young skaters and made it to 2022.

Nobody said it was an easy goal to get to 2022, but obviously Zhenya knows what she signed up for. Besides, what's the alternative at this point? Give up? Stay with Eteri and be the shadow of whatever up-and-comer rules the JGP/dominates the world field at the moment? Zhenya probably remembers how it was for other skaters when SHE was the up-and-comer.

At least at TCC, she gets to work with other skaters around the world, improve her English, develop different aspects of her skating and try new things. At her age, that's pretty thrilling, I'm sure.

Very well said!

At 18, her whole life is ahead of her.

el henry · Sep 30, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
Doesn’t really matter what we think. It’s how the RusFed determines what defines consistency that will be of consequence. Battling for only three spots for the ladies field in Russia is bound to create some uncertainty and reduce the room for error to almost none. It will be of utmost importance not to create a loss of momentum. There are more than a handful of her direct domestic competitors who are capable of going clean in both programs. That will put her PCS advantage to the test.

I’m not saying I’m worried or not BTW but I’ve watched every Russian Nationals since about 2012 and I would be lying if I didn’t confess a little concern. Top ten are often pretty clean these days

But that’s a different issue.

I have no idea what the RusFed will reward or not, I don’t follow them closely enough to say. :scratch2:

That doesn’t affect my definition of consistency. I follow skaters, not countries, not coaches. (ETA: although of course I root for my fav’s training mates, which is why I’m following Zhenya :biggrin:

) And for me, consistency is a *skater* doing remarkably well over the course of their career. Yuzu is of course the prime example, and Javi wasn’t exactly chopped liver either.

A *skater* with a long and illustrious career is consistency. Will RusFed reward it? Don’t know. But it doesn’t change the definition.

vorravorra · Oct 1, 2018

neusw said:
Welcome to mother Russia? haha

How else could you explain Konstantinova getting JWC and WC spots....

She was the third senior skater at Nationals and the third skater at Junior Nationals. Totally straightforward. Actually, I think they haven't fiddled with the third spot for a while, whoever is third at Nats/Junior Nats goes to Euros/Worlds/JW. So I don't think Zhenya will have trouble if she is the third senior skater at Nationals, of course, second is always better.

Eteri has consistent skaters, sure, but how many skaters does she have that are both consistent and over 18?

neusw · Oct 1, 2018

vorravorra said:
She was the third senior skater at Nationals and the third skater at Junior Nationals. Totally straightforward. Actually, I think they haven't fiddled with the third spot for a while, whoever is third at Nats/Junior Nats goes to Euros/Worlds/JW. So I don't think Zhenya will have trouble if she is the third senior skater at Nationals, of course, second is always better.

Eteri has consistent skaters, sure, but how many skaters does she have that are both consistent and over 18?

But how did she get to third? That is the questionable part. Rus fed is very capable of elevating the scores of people they want to push. Zhenya will definitely get international assignments as long as she's on the podium.

And really, are we going to have that conversation again? It doesn't matter, because the age limit to go to Euro/Worlds/Olys is not 18+. It's about as useful as comparing how many men TCC and Eteri train. This is a discussion about how the Russian fed may choose to give out their ladies assignments. I have no doubt Med understands exactly how this works and the best strategy for her in both skating and life.

ankifeather · Oct 1, 2018

neusw said:
While that may be true, I really think Russian ladies is a whole 'nother beast from Japanese men. On top of that, consistency is hugely important in Russia due to the sheer volume of girls who can throw down perfect programs day in, day out. I think the Russian fed will continue to expect the top girls they send to Euros and Worlds to be ultra-consistent (occasional falls from quads not-withstanding). As good as the TCC team is, their skaters are not exactly renowned for their consistency--even their absolute top notch skaters. Even peak Yuna could be up-and-down all season, and Hanyu has definitely been all over the place. They cater towards short-term peaking, which can work when your status in the country is solid, but may not be enough to inspire confidence from the Russian fed.

There is consistency in the sense of winning every competition at peak state with little mistakes for a season or two before completely burning out - which is what has been happening to senior Russain girls for the last quad, and we don't know if this will continue to be the trend going forward. and this isn't even an Eteri thing - it happened to girls not her students.

Then there is consistency in the sense of not being perfect every single competition, but keeping yourself on the podium and win as many gold as possible at the important ones (being GPF, Worlds and Olympics) over a period of two quads - like Yuna and Yuzu did. And as pointed out, lesser competition in their own country may have made this easier for them (although I would say Japanese men during Sochi quad was no less brutal than Russian ladies now - it was only after Sochi that competition dwindled).

It's very hard for any skater to be 100% consistent at every single competition for many many seasons because the human body does suffer wear and tear through that process.

Evgenia is in the peculiar position now where she wants to be in the latter category and not the former because that was where she had been, and not what she wants to return to. However, the women competition is still operating under the former model. Perhaps the way is to just manage to stay on podium through the GP series and than short term-peaking at Russian National to win the ticket to Worlds annually.

How TCC can manage to time that peak, or even bring about that peak is the challenge that they are facing.

vorravorra · Oct 1, 2018

neusw said:
But how did she get to third? That is the questionable part. Rus fed is very capable of elevating the scores of people they want to push. Zhenya will definitely get international assignments as long as she's on the podium.

And really, are we going to have that conversation again? It doesn't matter, because the age limit to go to Euro/Worlds/Olys is not 18+. It's about as useful as comparing how many men TCC and Eteri train. This is a discussion about how the Russian fed may choose to give out their ladies assignments. I have no doubt Med understands exactly how this works and the best strategy for her in both skating and life.

It matters for Zhenya because she is over 18. Which means perfect consistency at the price of killing herself in the rink like she did with Eteri is not an option for her any more. She still has her strong nervous system which was a big contributor to her consistency and I think that will be a huge help. But no skater over 18 can remain in peak form throughout the entire season the way 13-16 year olds can.

moriel · Oct 1, 2018

anonymoose_au said:
Seriously? TAT should have gone into gymnastics, I haven't seen that much flip-flopping since the Summer Olympics!

That...seems borderline illegal? Like...not throw into jail illegal, but not fairplay sportswise. The third best skater should be the third best skater, not a skater who just happens to have the third best coach or whatever. I'd have thought the ISU would be totally against that sort of thing, although I guess it's not the sort of thing that's easy to prove.

Actually, fed has the right to decide whoever goes to worlds.
All feds have their own rules - see the Mirai vs Ashley issue for example, or the selection of men for the Olympics this year in USA.
Rusfed, i think they even have an actual rule stating it, that 2 best seniors at nationals get their spot automatically, and the #3 is up to the fed to decide, something on those lines.

I do not see how this is anyhow illegal - it is up to the federation to decide who goes to worlds, and if you have lets say 3 girls nearly same level, they can peek however they want.

But the thing is, if you are not #1/#2, you will depend on the politiking.

moriel · Oct 1, 2018

. (accidentally duplicated because forum being weird)

Fluture · Oct 1, 2018

moriel said:
Actually, fed has the right to decide whoever goes to worlds.
All feds have their own rules - see the Mirai vs Ashley issue for example, or the selection of men for the Olympics this year in USA.
Rusfed, i think they even have an actual rule stating it, that 2 best seniors at nationals get their spot automatically, and the #3 is up to the fed to decide, something on those lines.

I do not see how this is anyhow illegal - it is up to the federation to decide who goes to worlds, and if you have lets say 3 girls nearly same level, they can peek however they want.

But the thing is, if you are not #1/#2, you will depend on the politiking.

It definitely isn‘t illegal, every fed can send whoever they want to the big events if they can at least justify it. But it‘s still no secret that being Russian #3 you need to have a powerful coach or TAT‘s love. It‘s not fair (I‘ll just say Konstantinova issue) but that‘s the way it is.

TGee · Oct 1, 2018

Fluture said:
It definitely isn‘t illegal, every fed can send whoever they want to the big events if they can at least justify it. But it‘s still no secret that being Russian #3 you need to have a powerful coach or TAT‘s love. It‘s not fair (I‘ll just say Konstantinova issue) but that‘s the way it is.

We should point out that a skater has to have met the Worlds qualifying TES for both the SP and FS at an ISU senior event with the past two seasons.

Other countries have faced this as an obstacle when assigning top finishers to Worlds ... e.g. Canada could not send Kevin Reynolds one year when he was coming back after surgery because only managed to make the 4CC TES at a Challenger B event in the fall, even though he placed higher at Nationals. So, he went to 4CC, but could not go to Worlds.

It's also a consideration for any Juniors who compete as seniors as nationals. They need to get the TES minimum at a CS or Torun senior assignment...

So, when we speculate about Juniors who might move up to Senior, we need to check whether they've had an opportunity to earn the minimum TES at a senior ISU event.

plushyfan · Oct 1, 2018

moriel said:
. (accidentally duplicated because forum being weird)

you received a message that anonymoose_au doesn't allow to send a private message for her..

moriel · Oct 1, 2018

TGee said:
We should point out that a skater has to have met the Worlds qualifying TES for both the SP and FS at an ISU senior event with the past two seasons.

Other countries have faced this as an obstacle when assigning top finishers to Worlds ... e.g. Canada could not send Kevin Reynolds one year when he was coming back after surgery because only managed to make the 4CC TES at a Challenger B event in the fall, even though he placed higher at Nationals. So, he went to 4CC, but could not go to Worlds.

It's also a consideration for any Juniors who compete as seniors as nationals. They need to get the TES minimum at a CS or Torun senior assignment...

So, when we speculate about Juniors who might move up to Senior, we need to check whether they've had an opportunity to earn the minimum TES at a senior ISU event.

We just didnt point it out because... How many ladies that met the qualifying TES for Worlds russian has again?

Thoughts on Evgenia Medvedeva's 2018-19 Season

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

neusw

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

neusw

anonymoose_au

Insert weird opinion here

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

neusw

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

NoviceFan

Triple Something-Triple Looping

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

vorravorra

neusw

ankifeather

vorravorra

moriel

moriel

Fluture

TGee

plushyfan

moriel

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