Thoughts on Evgenia Medvedeva's 2018-19 Season

moriel · Oct 2, 2018

Actually, i would disagree about that.
Pretty much all dance styles have sets of somewhat "standard" movements that are typical to that specific style. Ballet has it, tango has it, bellydance has it, and so on. It is part of what characterizes a dance. It is not some evil russian school or whatever, just saying. The issue is not really that omg, now you got to improvise - ballet dancers are pretty much well trained to improvise, using the tools they have. The issue is that the actual movements are different. Sometimes VERY different.

in short, its pretty simple, and has nothing to do with russian style. Ballet and ballet based dances are one thing, but dances that are not rooted on ballet are a whole different thing. Learning another language, simply put.

For example, I had ballet training as kid, and as a young adult, I did lots of stuff like forro, samba and bellydancing. At first, it was very challenging to me simply because, lets say, ballet is not really about doing shimmies with all the parts of your body, and of course I had zero practice in it - in fact it was a bit against my previous dance training.

TGee · Oct 2, 2018

moriel said:
Actually, i would disagree about that.
Pretty much all dance styles have sets of somewhat "standard" movements that are typical to that specific style. Ballet has it, tango has it, bellydance has it, and so on. It is part of what characterizes a dance. It is not some evil russian school or whatever, just saying. The issue is not really that omg, now you got to improvise - ballet dancers are pretty much well trained to improvise, using the tools they have. The issue is that the actual movements are different. Sometimes VERY different.

in short, its pretty simple, and has nothing to do with russian style. Ballet and ballet based dances are one thing, but dances that are not rooted on ballet are a whole different thing. Learning another language, simply put.

For example, I had ballet training as kid, and as a young adult, I did lots of stuff like forro, samba and bellydancing. At first, it was very challenging to me simply because, lets say, ballet is not really about doing shimmies with all the parts of your body, and of course I had zero practice in it - in fact it was a bit against my previous dance training.

I think we're talking about different things.

Not an 'evil Russian school' LOL, but I definitely can say that many of Zhenya's gestures, expressions etc. have followed a Russian cultural code that goes beyond ballet.

Others of Russian background have talked about this on this board, and for some, this is what they are concerned she will lose, that her skating will no longer be so quintessentially Russian.

And I take this as fair comment.

These forms are also some of what some North Americans find off-putting or affected.

Yes, some of the most familiar facial expressions and gestures are rehearsed in ballet. I once learned them in my Russian method classes, as I see my own kids have done the same.

But folks here have reminded me that they are themselves rooted in theatre and character dance.

North American dance expression is more 'method', from inside emotions to outside expression.

Not so much improvisation, but letting the emotions show through by imagining oneself to be the character one is portraying.

And she can do it. I was really surprised at how abandoned and even sensual Zhenya's character dancing was in a group class Lilbet posted a video of when she was passing through Moscow.

So, while I agree that she may need to increase her set of building blocks to include different dance styles and patterns of movement, it may be , as it was for Luba, getting her to the point where she's comfortable expressing some of that on the ice.

Looking ahead, Shae Lynne Bourne may be the best person to help with this for future seasons. She does more than coaching, but it doesn't sound as though it is a quick process.

moriel · Oct 2, 2018

My experience in dance both in and out of Russia is quite different of what you describe, both about Russian character and about how to perform.

Also, I do not see how "getting her to the point where she's comfortable expressing some of that on the ice" has to do with any national school of acting and dancing. I can totally assure you that Russian school and the Russian style has nothing to do with such issues, i'd say they are more related to the fact that Zhenya has nearly no experience in doing flirty and playful stuff, simply put.

NymphyNymphy · Oct 2, 2018

moriel said:
My experience in dance both in and out of Russia is quite different of what you describe, both about Russian character and about how to perform.

Also, I do not see how "getting her to the point where she's comfortable expressing some of that on the ice" has to do with any national school of acting and dancing. I can totally assure you that Russian school and the Russian style has nothing to do with such issues, i'd say they are more related to the fact that Zhenya has nearly no experience in doing flirty and playful stuff, simply put.

Do you know why Russian Skating Federation does not want to hire Russian Ballet Choreographers? We went to a ballet performance the last time I was in Russia and it was the most glorious thing I've ever seen. If we could combine the genius of Russian Ballet Choreographers with the athleticism of Russian skater it would be heaven.

Sam-Skwantch · Oct 2, 2018

NymphyNymphy said:
Do you know why Russian Skating Federation does not want to hire Russian Ballet Choreographers? We went to a ballet performance the last time I was in Russia and it was the most glorious thing I've ever seen. If we could combine the genius of Russian Ballet Choreographers with the athleticism of Russian skater it would be heaven.

I was told that this guy working with Nastya is/was a part of Russian ballet and helps with Choerography. I can’t verify it ..maybe someone else can.

melgirl25 · Oct 2, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
I was told that this guy working with Nastya is/was a part of Russian ballet and helps with Choerography. I can’t verify it ..maybe someone else can.

That is exactly what Zhenya needs! It would be such a disservice to her to not work with a dance consultant to help with both programs and also afterwards to help with general choreography and whatever future paths she chooses program wise.

moriel · Oct 2, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
I was told that this guy working with Nastya is/was a part of Russian ballet and helps with Choerography. I can’t verify it ..maybe someone else can.

He has a bunch of russian and international prizes, but nowhere near top.

Overall, i see two reasons for not mixing ballet with FS:
1. Very different footwork
2. Very different training (or lack of for FS girls) - keep in mind that ballet girls spend dancing roughly the same time that FS girls spend training.
So a top ballet person wouldnt be very interested because FS has lots of its own specifics, and the girls cannot do ballet.

plushyfan · Oct 3, 2018

NymphyNymphy said:
Do you know why Russian Skating Federation does not want to hire Russian Ballet Choreographers? We went to a ballet performance the last time I was in Russia and it was the most glorious thing I've ever seen. If we could combine the genius of Russian Ballet Choreographers with the athleticism of Russian skater it would be heaven.

I believe this depends on the coach. Mishin and Plush worked with ballet experts many times. For ex Plushenko's Nijinsky was choreographed by a famous ballet dancer and choreographer , Yuru Smekalov from Kirov Ballet( Mariinsky theater). David Avdish was working with Plush from his childhood and he works in Mishin group continously ( Avdish made choreography for the Perm Ballet.) There are some videos when Plush dances in the floor under Avdish' direction. Some years ago Plush skated Sergei Filin's choreography( Filin is ex Bolshoi director and prime dancer in it)
Filin's choreography to Il Volo music in 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajXiIErk8uM
and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57grdU9z-70 - Intimissimi on Ice 2016 - he exploded the arena with it

andromache · Oct 3, 2018

plushyfan said:
I believe this depends on the coach. Mishin and Plush worked with ballet experts many times. For ex Plushenko's Nijinsky was choreographed by a famous ballet dancer and choreographer , Yuru Smekalov from Kirov Ballet( Mariinsky theater). David Avdish was working with Plush from his childhood and he works in Mishin group continously ( Avdish made choreography for the Perm Ballet.) There are some videos when Plush dances in the floor under Avdish' direction. Some years ago Plush skated Sergei Filin's choreography( Filin is ex Bolshoi director and prime dancer in it)
Filin's choreography to Il Volo music in 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajXiIErk8uM
and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57grdU9z-70 - Intimissimi on Ice 2016 - he exploded the arena with it

In all fairness, I think skaters in 6.0 and early IJS had more time for these types of pursuits - I think that training current step sequences and spin levels (not to mention the increased jump difficulty) takes away from the amount of time that skaters can spend on specialized dance training.

I also imagine that because IJS is much less "free" than 6.0, dance choreographers who aren't very familiar with skating would have a much more difficult time trying to choreograph a skating program. It works for shows or 6.0 programs, but not IJS programs.

vorravorra · Oct 3, 2018

TGee said:
This brings me back to the 'Let's be patient', discussion...

It's all a lot for any human being to absorb in a very brief period of time.

Everyone's assuming that's she's not taking jazz lessons or ballroom dance, including tango.

But it could be that it hasn't all come together ...

Or, it could be that she hasn't learned to express in a more free or 'method' way.

A lot of gestures and expression in traditional Russian theatre, ballet and character dance are standardized. They are trained and rehearsed in class, and then become memes or building blocks in choreography.

So, Zhenya is likely used to memorizing the sequence for her programs.

Now, instead she is being asked to reproduce a style rather than certain gestures or expressions in a set pattern.

Now we've seen from some video of character dance classes at Sambo70 that Zhenya can be very expressive. So the capacity is there, it's likely a question of how to bring it out in the program.

Lubov mentioned in interviews that it was the improvisation drama / acting classes that Lee Barkell organized for her and Dylan that really helped her make the transition, and express emotions in a different way from the Russian approach. She also has said many times that one of the things that she really came to enjoy was the emotional expression in their programs.

So, now Zhenya goes out on the ice and is asked to "produce something jazzy" instead of getting an actual choreographed program where you are told what to do with your arms, body etc.? I find this confusing.

melgirl25 · Oct 3, 2018

vorravorra said:
So, now Zhenya goes out on the ice and is asked to "produce something jazzy" instead of getting an actual choreographed program where you are told what to do with your arms, body etc.? I find this confusing.

No I think she is getting guidance. Sandra Bezic is helping David Wilson with this (and helped with the program). Like TGee said we are just being impatient, hehe! We really have no idea what she is doing! It is a bold program choice and there is a learning curve for her.

TGee · Oct 3, 2018

vorravorra said:
So, now Zhenya goes out on the ice and is asked to "produce something jazzy" instead of getting an actual choreographed program where you are told what to do with your arms, body etc.? I find this confusing.

Choreography in terms of arms and steps are one thing, but a facial expression or apparent mood can come from the outside or inside.

Like the difference between classical theatre and North American natural acting.

One still has a script, direction and marks to hit, but one 'gets into character' so the performance comes out more naturally.

Either way one is still acting or performing, but how one gets to the expression is not the same.

el henry · Oct 3, 2018

How in the world can anyone say as a fact that Zhenya is getting no dance training?:hopelessness:

If a poster here has a magic camera hidden at TCC, Japanese media will probably pay you a pretty penny for it :laugh:

Otherwise, it is all just opinions. Which is fine: I don’t like this program, I think it looks like she needs more training in x y and z, that’s an opinion. I would disagree with it in some part, but opinions are opinions.

Not facts:confused2:

samkrut@mail.ru · Oct 3, 2018

el henry said:
How in the world can anyone say as a fact that Zhenya is getting no dance training?:hopelessness:

If a poster here has a magic camera hidden at TCC, Japanese media will probably pay you a pretty penny for it

Otherwise, it is all just opinions. Which is fine: I don’t like this program, I think it looks like she needs more training in x y and z, that’s an opinion. I would disagree with it in some part, but opinions are opinions.

Not facts:confused2:

Fact is that she received 204 in her first outing while her main competitor received 238. And her team has to do a lot of work because of this fact.

Lester · Oct 3, 2018

[email protected] said:
Fact is that she received 204 in her first outing while her main competitor received 238. And her team has to do a lot of work because of this fact.

Right now they are not exactly in competition. One is aiming at continuing her domination, another is completely rebuilding her skating.

Honestly, you need to calm down with that Zhenya hysteria. Not enough time has passed to seriously consider her career in trouble. I am sure her camp are very aware and even have a plan of all the work they intend to do.

TGee · Oct 3, 2018

[email protected] said:
Fact is that she received 204 in her first outing while her main competitor received 238. And her team has to do a lot of work because of this fact.

And a few days back we reviewed the arguments why caution should be used in comparing scores from different events with different panels..

...especially in this early Challenger Series season wherein judges are getting there first experiences with the revised IJS.

No question that Alina is further along in her preparation, but also most would note that ACI in particular and Canadian events in general are known for relatively tough tech panels.

el henry · Oct 3, 2018

[email protected] said:
Fact is that she received 204 in her first outing while her main competitor received 238. And her team has to do a lot of work because of this fact.

The fact is that comparing scores against different events is, I'm sorry to say, completely irrelevant, and I won't do it.

And I don't know what this has to do with my original comment with whether we *know* that Zhenya is taking dance lessons?:scratch3: I don't know exactly what Zhenya's training day consists of, and unless someone can point me to articles, quotes, etc., neither does anyone else.

andromache · Oct 3, 2018

Lester said:
Honestly, you need to calm down with that Zhenya hysteria. Not enough time has passed to seriously consider her career in trouble. I am sure her camp are very aware and even have a plan of all the work they intend to do.

It's pretty clear that some people think Eteri is god's gift to skating and that Alina is a GOAT. Don't even try to talk about a lady in search of a long-term career.

Tolstoj · Oct 3, 2018

NymphyNymphy said:
Do you know why Russian Skating Federation does not want to hire Russian Ballet Choreographers? We went to a ballet performance the last time I was in Russia and it was the most glorious thing I've ever seen. If we could combine the genius of Russian Ballet Choreographers with the athleticism of Russian skater it would be heaven.

What? You should follow more the Russian mens in juniors skating: Iakovlev, Gumennik, Efimchuk, Vetlugin, Danielan are ballet trained for sure.

Russian coaches send their skaters to different courses, most of the russian skaters do ballet training, the problem is more how committed is the athlete to those side activities, and how interested is the coach to work on these things and that means everything: you can have a skater like Lezheev or Kovtun (yes even him tried ballet)

tomc100 · Oct 3, 2018

andromache said:
It's pretty clear that some people think Eteri is god's gift to skating and that Alina is a GOAT. Don't even try to talk about a lady in search of a long-term career.

I don't understand the reference to a goat.

Thoughts on Evgenia Medvedeva's 2018-19 Season

moriel

TGee

moriel

NymphyNymphy

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

melgirl25

moriel

plushyfan

andromache

vorravorra

melgirl25

TGee

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

[email protected]

Medalist

Lester

Piper and Paul are made of magic dust and unicorns

TGee

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

andromache

Tolstoj

tomc100

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