The Great Consistency Debate! | Page 4 | Golden Skate

The Great Consistency Debate!

xeyra

Constant state
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Jan 10, 2017
Perhaps the definition of consistency could be "reliable to make fewest mistakes relative to the rest of the field, and hence finish on the podium"?

But you also have men who can make fewer mistakes relative to the rest of the field, with lower BV, and never make a podium; does that mean they're not consistent?
 
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
I wouldn't rate their consistency as highly. Much like it is probably easier to be consistent with cheated technique, it's probably easier to be consistent with easier content. It's probably a reason why the definition of consistency might change with eras -- in order to make the podium with each era, you'd need to up your tech content. So new parameters for consistency.
 

yume

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Mar 11, 2016
Perhaps the definition of consistency could be "reliable to make fewest mistakes relative to the rest of the field, and hence finish on the podium"?

There are also skaters who can make more mistakes relative to the rest of the field but still finish on podium. Are they consistents?
 
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
That doesn't always happen, but also by my definition: no. And they'd probably not be "reliable to finish" in the first place.
 

plushyfan

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I mean Michelle tallied more 6.0s than anyone in skating history under the 6.0 system and wasn’t off the podium for a decade straight.

In fact she was in over a 100 competitions since she turned senior at 12 and was only ever off the podium 7 times her entire career, only one of those happening after the age of 15 (at age 25 where she was 4th). Whether it’s results or performance, I don’t think there’s a more consistent skater or competitor in general in modern skating than Kwan. She’s really in her own league.

YEs, I agree with you she was really consistent. And maybe you are my man!!! Maybe you can help me..how many 6.0s Michelle had? Have you exact number?
 
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
I could take this definition and also theharleyquinn’s proposed definition. The point of departure that generates discussion here anyways is not how we define consistency per se, but who will be the most consistent under different rubrics of how we define consistency. So perhaps the best way here is if we apply different definitions, which skater will most frequently appear in the list? Would a skater, who is considered consistent because of podium placement, be also considered consistent in showing both jump and artistic consistency? Is that skater also consistent in landing jumps throughout their career? I think if we can say, yes, yes, yes on those answer on skater A, and maybe no, yes, no or yes, no, yes, for skater B, I would be inclined to say that skater A is more consistent overall. You can add different variation of how you define consistency and then do the “yes/no” answer. Maybe then we can finally be satisfied with it.

But you also have men who can make fewer mistakes relative to the rest of the field, with lower BV, and never make a podium; does that mean they're not consistent?

I wouldn't rate their consistency as highly. Much like it is probably easier to be consistent with cheated technique, it's probably easier to be consistent with easier content. It's probably a reason why the definition of consistency might change with eras -- in order to make the podium with each era, you'd need to up your tech content. So new parameters for consistency.

And now a zinger, because I for one didn't think about it... Is consistency binary, or on a scale?
 

yume

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Mar 11, 2016
On a scale, i guess. Since the difficulty of programs isn't the same.
 

xeyra

Constant state
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Jan 10, 2017
But rating someone's consistency below others because of a skater's lower BV doesn't mean they're not consistent at their chosen layout. They are still consistent, even if one rates, say, someone who can regularly land 3 quads and mess up on a 4th higher in such consistency scale.
 

yume

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Mar 11, 2016
But rating someone's consistency below others because of a skater's lower BV doesn't mean they're not consistent at their chosen layout.

They are consistent, at their chosen layout, precisely. But maybe they're not most consistent than those who have an harder content (like 3 planned triples program always skated cleanly vs 7 planned triples program with always one error).
 
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
But rating someone's consistency below others because of a skater's lower BV doesn't mean they're not consistent at their chosen layout. They are still consistent, even if one rates, say, someone who can regularly land 3 quads and mess up on a 4th higher in such consistency scale.

In a scale, they would just have a lower rating. So there isn't a concept of consistency, as much of a rating of consistency, using which you'd be able to rank skaters from most to least consistent.
The question of binary/scale isn't that revolutionary in the first place... But in this case consistency is a function of difficulty, for instance.
 
Joined
May 7, 2018
You should check the protocols of these 2 season to see who actually fall the most. As far as I count, Hanyu actually had less falls than most guys during these 2 seasons.

I know, I was counting during his career, I know he is by far the most consistent skater this days
 

yume

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Mar 11, 2016
I will disagree with this. I don't think Kim made a ton of mistakes in any single competition, but more to the point -- the depth of field in the 2007-10 era was probably more, or at least the same. Kim, Asada, Ando, Rochette, and Kostner (!!) were contenders for the podium. This is at the very least no different from now.

2010 worlds maybe, or 2008 GPF . But it depends of the definition of ton of mistakes i guess.

And IMHO that era was weak after 2008. Before 2008, most top girls had 7 triples programs with hard 3-3s. But Kim had no real technical competition after 2008. Not because she progressed but because others regressed and tech panels became harsher. Mao their favourite toy could hardly challenge a Yuna with mistakes on TES.
Six triples FS and 3-2 were common.

The current era is far more competitive. A 3lz-3T is not anymore a rarity and wow factor.
 

Sabrina

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Feb 13, 2013
When Julia Lipniskaya started skating senior level she was amazingly consistent, until the Olympics single event. She came back strong for the worlds where she finished second to great Mao Asada in Japan... Unfortunately she sort of disappeared after that. Of course, Evgenia is an epitome for consistency.
 

plushyfan

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Country
Hungary
I mean Michelle tallied more 6.0s than anyone in skating history under the 6.0 system and wasn’t off the podium for a decade straight.

In fact she was in over a 100 competitions since she turned senior at 12 and was only ever off the podium 7 times her entire career, only one of those happening after the age of 15 (at age 25 where she was 4th). Whether it’s results or performance, I don’t think there’s a more consistent skater or competitor in general in modern skating than Kwan. She’s really in her own league.

YEs, I agree with you she was really consistent. And maybe you are my man!!! Maybe you can help me..how many 6.0s Michelle had? Have you exact number?

Sigh..I was waiting for your answer..I really wanted to know how many 6.0s Michelle had.. :hslap: Thus I checked her Wiki page. Maybe this will be surprise for you but Plushenko had more 6.0s as Michelle..Plushenko 75, cca 70 are artistry marks, Michelle had 57. Both of them are really consistence skaters

( So it's funny the "unartistry skater" :bang: had more 6.0s than anyone in Fs history)
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
For me, consistency has nothing to do with podium finish. For example, the fact that everybody else splats even more on a given competition does not mean that the skater is consistent. A consistent skater may always finish far away from podium because he only does triples while everybody else does quads.

So I would say a consistent skater is the one that can, consistently, hit his/her average BV, or nearly so. No GOE because everybody has the right to do some small mistakes. No PCs because PCs scoring is weird, and for example, PCs sometimes reward consistency, and also tend to be proportional to TES and grow during the season and have all sort of weird behavior.

How it works:

Zagitova FS
Lombardia: 66.01
GP France: 66.01
GP CoC: 64.03
GPF: 66.01
Europeans: 66.01
Worlds: 59.63
Olys: 66.01
Variance: 6.6

Kostner FS
Lombardia: 49.49
Finlandia: 46.64
GP NHK: 52.02
GP CoR: 56.75
GPF: 53.34
Europeans: 46.23
Worlds: 45.98
Olys: 56.04
Variance: 19.1

Osmond FS:
Autumn Classic: 57.42
GP SC: 57.28
GP France: 59.40
GPF: 56.46
Worlds: 62.12
Olys: 62.12
Variance: 6.3

Medvedeva FS 2016-17 (Benchmark):
GP SC: 61.23
GP France: 62.33
GPF: 62.76
Europeans: 62.33
Worlds: 62.33
Variance: 0.3


Medvedeva, in 2016-17 season, is a consistency benchmark. She literally hit her BV most time, with variance of 0.3. I don't think that anyone here can disagree she was consistent.
Osmond and Zagitova in 2017-18 season are not consistent, but not too messy either. Regular skaters with their ups and downs.
Kostner in 2017-18 season is clearly and obviously inconsistent. Again, I don't think anyone here can disagree with this conclusion.


Now that I did the math, it actually makes sense somehow, at least for me.


UPDATE: note that this does not account for planned BV. For example, if a skater has a flutz and still puts it into the program and gets consistently called for it, that is still consistency. If a skater consistently URs, that is still consistency.

Another interesting metric would be the average deviation of the maximum possible BV for that program, that would account for "consistent" built in mistakes such as chronic edge calls or URs.
 

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
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May 19, 2011
I think there are two kinds of consistency: Execution and Results. You can have one and not have the other...

Consistent Execution: This is the skater you can rely on to come out, perform well and execute their program 90% of the time. They get it done and they get it done nearly every time. They land their jumps, they perform...they are the reliable ones.

Consistent Results: These skaters land on podiums. Many if not most of the skaters who execute consistently also have consistent results in terms of medaling. However, there are those who consistently land on podiums but don't always have the best execution. These are the skaters who tend to be called "inconsistent" and usually average a couple of mistakes per competition, yet they do things well enough to make up for it and still maintain a spot on the podium.


Consistent Execution and Results: Michelle Kwan, Irina Slutskaya, Yuna Kim (post-Vancouver), Evgenia Medvedeva, Satoko Miyahara

Consistent Results: Sasha Cohen, Mao Asada (post-Torino, 2012/13-2013/14 seasons), Carolina Kostner (post-Vancouver), Kaetlyn Osmond

I do prefer people who consistently execute but I've learned that results without pristine execution still has its merit.
 

yume

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Mar 11, 2016
There is a third category: Consistent execution but no results.
Mai Mihara, Bradie Tennell, Dabin Choi, Anna Tarusina, etc.

I dont take URs in account, otherwise Satoko would not be in consistent skaters lists.
 

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
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May 19, 2011
There is a third category: Consistent execution but no results.
Mai Mihara, Bradie Tennell, Dabin Choi, Anna Tarusina, etc.

I dont take URs in account, otherwise Satoko would not be in consistent skaters lists.

Very true. Though I wouldn't consider some of these skaters in that list.

Mai had a small slump last year (tiny errors cost her medals) but she still finished top 5 every time out. Bradie Tennell hasn't been around that long but she medaled at the majority of her events last year (senior Bs, SA, nationals). Her's is a case of being new to the scene and not really having a wow factor to propel her into the competitive PCS range. Unfortunately I don't know who Anna Tarusina is...which may be part of the reason.

Dabin Choi is the one I think that applies to. Granted, like Bradie, she doesn't have much of a wow factor. Her skating is pretty but her performance is often bland/dull which hurts her PCS. I find So Youn Park and Eunsoo Lim to be much stronger performers overall.
 

yume

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Mar 11, 2016
Performance and wow factor are not criteria of consistency for me. Since someone with turtle face during the whole program can have great PCS.

But yes, they don't medal because of PCS.
 

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion
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Aug 25, 2017
Very true. Though I wouldn't consider some of these skaters in that list.

Mai had a small slump last year (tiny errors cost her medals) but she still finished top 5 every time out. Bradie Tennell hasn't been around that long but she medaled at the majority of her events last year (senior Bs, SA, nationals). Her's is a case of being new to the scene and not really having a wow factor to propel her into the competitive PCS range. Unfortunately I don't know who Anna Tarusina is...which may be part of the reason.

Dabin Choi is the one I think that applies to. Granted, like Bradie, she doesn't have much of a wow factor. Her skating is pretty but her performance is often bland/dull which hurts her PCS. I find So Youn Park and Eunsoo Lim to be much stronger performers overall.

Anna Tarusina is 15, she'll be senior eligible this year (early 2003). She won Elder Age Nationals in 2016 and 2018 (like advanced novice nationals but also with many juniors) She's the one who was injured in the bus accident at the 2016 JGP St. Gervais and had to take a year off and get a few surgeries done afterwards. She's coached by Sergey Davydov, whose skaters are often pretty consistent. Anna also does two pretty rare combos: 3Lo-3T in both the short and free and 3Lz-1Lo-3F in the free

Anyway, Anna didn't fall at all this season and I'm not sure she even had a single element with negative GOE... maybe one or two. But her only real accomplishment this season was the Elder Age Nationals win (and a bunch of skaters messed up this year, so it's all the more incredible that she didn't really mess up the whole season) Yet she's unlikely to get a GP spot and is hoping for a JGP I guess...
 
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