The Great Consistency Debate! | Golden Skate

The Great Consistency Debate!

Joined
Dec 9, 2017
How do you define consistency? Which skaters are/were consistent? How do age and technique affect this?
 

cohen-esque

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
Well, reposting myself from the other thread:
Yuna retired at 23 and she never placed off the podium. Osmond has medalled at 13/15 competitions she’s been in in the past two seasons (placing 4th both other times).

Mao was a “maybe”: but she was landing 3As for over a decade straight (compare to Tuktamhsheva) and won a slew of World, 4CC, GPF medals and titles. Between 2011 and 2014 (over 18, and before the time off) she only missed the podium twice, and the same between 2003-2010 (but which includes pre-18 years, obviously).

As for Orser, Hanyu has medalled at literally every single competition he’s been in from 2015... and since the six seasons he’s been with Orser, he’s only missed the podium twice (also placing 4th both times.) Javi has only missed the podium three times since Sochi. Yuna, while she was with him, won 3 GP Finals and a World and Olympic title, aside from setting 11 world record scores.

In what universe are those not consistent results?!

Obviously I fall more on the side of placements and results, ideally over multiple seasons. To me, consistently should be measured first and foremost by the ability to do well enough to earn medals, time and time again, preferably without noticeable periods of lesser results. And I’m more impressed by it at older ages, especially for the women, because by then it’s more likely to be due to primarily to skill, technique, and/or sheer will and determination, but I don’t think we should discount young skaters who go on to do well.

I do recognize skaters who consistently complete their technical elements with relatively few errors, à la Miyahara or Medvedeva, regardless of results... but to me skater who never misses anything but places 4th and 5th (or lower) over and over again is less impressive than the skater who messes up more often but is still able to do enough to step onto the podium. I’d regard the latter’s consistency more highly.

For the women, Medvedeva, by my definition, would take the crown as probably the most consistent skater of recent times, except she would maybe be behind Yuna. I’d also put forward Michelle, Katarina Witt, and among pre-triples era skaters, obviously Sonja Henie and Carol Heiss.

Someone like Mao would be behind them, because of her post-Vancouver slump and her last two seasons after her time off, but between 2003-2009/10 and 2011/12 to 2014, I would include her among the most consistent skaters.

But I realize that obviously many others primarily judge by the number of mistakes, so, maybe there should be a contrast between “consistency” and “consistent results.”
 
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
I, too, think consistency should be defined by results, not by the dubious "lands all jumps" criterion.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Consistency is the ability to give strong technical output on a reliable basis. Especially when they are having an off day, a consistent skater will still find a way to skate well. I'd allow a consistent skater 1 major error (SP + LP collectively), and maybe a few minor errors. Also to be considered is the difficulty, as a skater with much greater difficulty will obviously find it more of a challenge to be consistent.

Good technique means a skater can reliably execute. It seems younger skaters have a knack for consistency because they focus more on technical output, but as they mature and focus on better programs/choreography for higher PCS marks, they may sacrifice some of that consistency.

Obviously a consistent skater will continually win (or be favoured to win), too.

Consistent skaters from past and present:
- Plushenko
- Yagudin
- Kim
- Kwan
- Asada
- Slutskaya
- Medvedeva
- lots of Russian juniors
- Medvedeva
- Zagitova (even with the Worlds FS disaster)

Unfortunately, I can't think of any consistent male skaters today who I would label as consistent. I might be inclined to say Chen, Fernandez, or Hanyu, but they've also had their fair share of disastrous competitions/segments too.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I, too, think consistency should be defined by results, not by the dubious "lands all jumps" criterion.

Agreed. However, there are plenty of skaters who have won competitions or medalled in spite of disastrous programs (with 3+ falls, even), so results don't always tell the whole story.

Not to mention, there are some "consistent" skaters like Ge who don't have the technical game, but often put out more solid performances than those who place higher than him but have harder content.
 

Izabela

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
How do you define consistency? Which skaters are/were consistent? How do age and technique affect this?

While I agree with cohen-esque here regarding consistency, the generational changes in the way we define consistency regarding ladies skaters can just be reduced to the fact that nowadays, and generally speaking, they are more consistent on landing their jumps compared to the skaters during Yuna/Mao era. Yuna, in particular, wasn't considered consistent when she was starting because she couldn't string in both clean SP and LP until Vancouver onward. Ditto with Mao, Ando, Caro and Kimmie around those times (and IIRC, even Zhang). The thing is, and this is why it's problematic to equate how well you can land jumps as a benchmark of consistency, is the difference in the "development of technique" between different eras. While I'm pretty sure back in 2005-2010 there were already great techniques on triples, one have to wonder how developed those techniques are compared to now, particularly since in the 6.0. system, underrotations or right edge take-off weren't a big issue in relation to CoP, so coaches may have been forced to tweak in some of their techniques to get them right. Another adjustments for coaches from 6.0 to CoP, IMO, is the required inclusion of transitions before and after jumps to maximize points. Again, transitions weren't a big thing back in 6.0, so coaches may also have to readjust jump techniques for skaters to land their jumps with those transitions in mind.

TL;DR: The 2007-2010 was a big transition phase for coaches and skaters because of the large overhauling of scoring system, which may have taken away consistency of landing from the skaters.

On the other hand, in 2014-2018 era, jump techniques were already well established, and coaches can easily review Yuna's or Mao's or Caro's jumps as teaching paraphernalia.

For the rest, again, I pretty much agree with cohen-esque, particularly this:

I do recognize skaters who consistently complete their technical elements with relatively few errors, à la Miyahara or Medvedeva, regardless of results... but to me skater who never misses anything but places 4th and 5th (or lower) over and over again is less impressive than the skater who messes up more often but is still able to do enough to step onto the podium. I’d regard the latter’s consistency more highly.

(As a tangent, this is actually what makes the rivalry of Yuna and Mao so interesting during the 2007-2010 quad, because what are the off-chances that we can have two great skaters during the experimental period of CoP.)
 

AshWagsFan

Edges for days.
Final Flight
Joined
Oct 14, 2017
Country
United-States
It depends on who you’re talking about. There’s Yuna, who was never off the podium, or Satoko, who rarely misses jumps (sometimes urs) but isn’t always on the podium...
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
But I realize that obviously many others primarily judge by the number of mistakes, so, maybe there should be a contrast between “consistency” and “consistent results.”

I agree with this. I think too often whether someone is "consistent" in some aspect of the sport is outcomes based. And often in the context of these kinds of discussion getting "the best result."

Also there is a very fine line between "consistency" and "complacency."

Also, I think there's benefit in different aspects of consistency. Kaetlyn Osmond comes in mind. She isn't consistent in getting clean programs, but I think there's one thing that's pretty consistent, which is why I think she scores pretty well in spite of her mistakes -- she generally is levelheaded. Watch her in the K&C. She is rarely visibility upset or angry. She does not let one mistake get to her and maxes out what she does well and lands. That is why she gets consistently good scores and solid results, if not always the "best" result.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
(As a tangent, this is actually what makes the rivalry of Yuna and Mao so interesting during the 2007-2010 quad, because what are the off-chances that we can have two great skaters during the experimental period of CoP.)
I think I would say that the experimental period of the CoP would be 2002-2005. There continue to be little tweaks each year, even now, of course.

Michelle Kwan finished first or second in every event she entered from 1995-96 through 2000-2001, and never missed a podium through 2004.
 

Izabela

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
I think I would say that the experimental period of the CoP would be 2002-2005. There continue to be little tweaks each year, even now, of course.

Michelle Kwan finished first or second in every event she entered from 1995-96 through 2000-2001, and never missed a podium through 2004.

Experimental period in a sense of being the official scoring system throughout a quad period. But experimental may not be the proper term, what I'm getting at is that the 2007-2010 is the first quad in figure skating history where the CoP is the mandated scoring system throughout, unlike 2003-2006; also IIRC, only beginning in 2007 (at least in senior), did we see an increase of focus on underrotaions and wrong edge take of (both from commentators and judges). Whereas before, if you look at the commentaries, it wasn't that big of a deal.

That doesn't take away from the fact that Kwan is a consistent skater. She was on podium 9 consecutive times/years at Worlds if my statistics is right. :laugh:
 

Shayuki

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
I don't think that "results" should be the defining factor at all. Someone with incredibly inflated PCS like Kostner can place high competition after competition due to the power of massively high PCS that most other skaters just cannot hope to compete with, even if she only lands 3 triples. That's not consistency to me. And Osmond was used as an example even though she's only had about 2 clean competitions(And neither of them were entirely clean).

In my opinion, it's clear that what makes a skater consistent is them being able to perform all their elements with high quality time after time, regardless of how they get scored. And a skater who never places within the top 10 can be consistent as well.
 

tothepointe

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 4, 2018
How do you define consistency? Which skaters are/were consistent? How do age and technique affect this?

To me consistency is being able to perform at or near one's maximum ability about 90% of the time. In my mind it doesn't always mean they are winners or the top of their field. But the skaters that do what they can do, the best they can do it most of the time.

In general a lack of meltdowns.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
I don't think that "results" should be the defining factor at all. Someone with incredibly inflated PCS like Kostner can place high competition after competition due to the power of massively high PCS that most other skaters just cannot hope to compete with, even if she only lands 3 triples. That's not consistency to me. And Osmond was used as an example even though she's only had about 2 clean competitions(And neither of them were entirely clean).

In my opinion, it's clear that what makes a skater consistent is them being able to perform all their elements with high quality time after time, regardless of how they get scored. And a skater who never places within the top 10 can be consistent as well.

I use Osmond as an example to show how other forms of consistency (in her case, a consistent cool-head) might be a benefit from a mindset/competition perspective. I think her whole "I'm making progress"/going to keep it cool act even when she didn't do well was incredibly annoying to some, but I think in a way it's helped her through a long and grueling season and she was ultimately rewarded with a OBM/World Championship.
 

cohen-esque

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
I don't think that "results" should be the defining factor at all. Someone with incredibly inflated PCS like Kostner can place high competition after competition due to the power of massively high PCS that most other skaters just cannot hope to compete with, even if she only lands 3 triples. That's not consistency to me. And Osmond was used as an example even though she's only had about 2 clean competitions(And neither of them were entirely clean).

In my opinion, it's clear that what makes a skater consistent is them being able to perform all their elements with high quality time after time, regardless of how they get scored. And a skater who never places within the top 10 can be consistent as well.

Fair enough. I guess to me, without at least some good results to back it up, “consistency” just becomes kind of meaningless.

Like, if you always hit your programs to the best of your ability, and you always place 20th, is that really more impressive than someone like Sasha Cohen or Kaetlyn Osmond (or even Carolina, though much less so), who are almost always skating well enough to win medals even if they could have skated better? Or if you can only do 3 triples, does consistently landing all of those really mean any more than a skater who attempts seven but usually only hits six?

And what if a skater is able to perform all their elements cleanly, but not of a high quality?
 

Izabela

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
I don't think that "results" should be the defining factor at all. Someone with incredibly inflated PCS like Kostner can place high competition after competition due to the power of massively high PCS that most other skaters just cannot hope to compete with, even if she only lands 3 triples. That's not consistency to me. And Osmond was used as an example even though she's only had about 2 clean competitions(And neither of them were entirely clean).

In my opinion, it's clear that what makes a skater consistent is them being able to perform all their elements with high quality time after time, regardless of how they get scored. And a skater who never places within the top 10 can be consistent as well.

But if they could perform all their elements with high quality time after time, theoretically, shouldn't it follow that they would podium or at least be placed above top 10 time after time as well? It's not like judges actually give skaters a medal just by sheer inflation of PCS, without it being justified by their TES. That's why I don't see anyone here saying that Kostner is consistent, because even though her elements could be construed as with high quality, since she tends to have meltdown time after time (particularly on her jumps), and thus don't always perform at her best, she is actually widely known as inconsistent, and that narrative hasn't changed as far as I can tell.
 

hippomoomin

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
I would place Evgenia over Yuna. Evgenia won either gold or silver in her entire senior career, while Yuna was sometimes the 3rd on the podium.
Well, reposting myself from the other thread:


Obviously I fall more on the side of placements and results, ideally over multiple seasons. To me, consistently should be measured first and foremost by the ability to do well enough to earn medals, time and time again, preferably without noticeable periods of lesser results. And I’m more impressed by it at older ages, especially for the women, because by then it’s more likely to be due to primarily to skill, technique, and/or sheer will and determination, but I don’t think we should discount young skaters who go on to do well.

I do recognize skaters who consistently complete their technical elements with relatively few errors, à la Miyahara or Medvedeva, regardless of results... but to me skater who never misses anything but places 4th and 5th (or lower) over and over again is less impressive than the skater who messes up more often but is still able to do enough to step onto the podium. I’d regard the latter’s consistency more highly.

For the women, Medvedeva, by my definition, would take the crown as probably the most consistent skater of recent times, except she would maybe be behind Yuna. I’d also put forward Michelle, Katarina Witt, and among pre-triples era skaters, obviously Sonja Henie and Carol Heiss.

Someone like Mao would be behind them, because of her post-Vancouver slump and her last two seasons after her time off, but between 2003-2009/10 and 2011/12 to 2014, I would include her among the most consistent skaters.

But I realize that obviously many others primarily judge by the number of mistakes, so, maybe there should be a contrast between “consistency” and “consistent results.”
 

Danny T

Medalist
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
I'd define consistency in its most conventional meaning - skaters completing their technical content most of the times. In my book when a skater I consider consistent steps out on the ice, I have no worries that they might fall or pop. Under my consistency criteria, I don't really care about UR, PR, flutz, lip, even some wobbly landings. As long as the skater goes out to land their jumps, say 90% of the time, I consider them consistent. Hence, Medvedeva and Miyahara are at the top of my 'consistent' list.

I sometimes call consistent performers consistent skaters too. My shining example is Daisuke Takahashi - his quad consistency post-injury is a mess but as long as he steps on the ice, I know I would be in for a treat.

That said, I never thought consistency is the hallmark of a great skater. Maybe that's because my first Olys is Torino and singles were always messy to me, I don't know. Regardless, skaters can be consistent, but consistently mediocre. Consistency is merely a bonus for me when considering how good a skater is. If they have it, great; if they dont't, it really doesn't negate anything for me. I'll take occasionally brilliant over consistently mediocre any time.
 

schizoanalyst

Medalist
Joined
Oct 26, 2016
Technically, falling every time would be consistent. But I'll keep the thread friendly.

I sometimes call consistent performers consistent skaters too. My shining example is Daisuke Takahashi - his quad consistency post-injury is a mess but as long as he steps on the ice, I know I would be in for a treat.

I agree that consistent performance quality is important to think about too. Evan Lysacek was a pretty consistent skater (in both results and element success rate) - but (at least to me) he wasn't a consistent performer at all so I wouldn't nominate him for consistency.
 
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