Thoughts on U.S. skating talent | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Thoughts on U.S. skating talent

macy

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
A noble idea. :bow:
For it to work, there would need to be agreement as to how to determine which few skaters would be recipients of funding.
If a small committee were to be empowered to select recipients, there would need to be agreement as to who would be on the committee.

Not trying to rain on your parade. If you can bring your idea to fruition, good for you.
Just sayin' that the devil would be in the details.

i absolutely agree there's a lot of gray area that would come with this and could be potentially really difficult to handle. i do think it would be smart to have a small committee that would follow an up and coming skater's progress and results over the span of a year, and maybe have a list of boxes a skater would have to check in order to qualify for a share of the funding. what those boxes would be i'm really not sure lol, maybe a comparison of their results from the season before and similar factors? but i think the reward and benefit would outweigh the cons...being able to become closer to a skater's career and having the opportunity to be a potentially very important piece of the puzzle in a potentially successful elite career would be so awesome.
 

VegMom

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
That's where the offering of scholarships and other help comes in. The USFS has to step up.

I'm curious about this. In general I think it's a good idea to offer some scholarships and assistance, but I'm not sure it would be enough.
The clubs in my area have scholarships but they are small. They require writing an essay, which just didn't make sense to us for our young skater (who has basically only ever written two essays in his life). There are rumors about another scholarship program based on skating, but still the amounts barely put a dent in the overall cost of skating.

What kind of scholarship program would make sense?

There are a lot of kids who have a lot of talent and drive but not a lot of money who get helped out with ice time by their skating club, or get coaching for free or heavily discounted by coaches who really believe in them.

Lots? Really? I know of a few skaters who get some discounts due to a sort of bartering the parents do (example: a parent is a photographer and does pro photos for the rink in exchange for ice time) but the vast majority of us parents just pay everything out of pocket and try to make it work. And the skaters who go far? They all have parents with money.

This is exactly my point. Not many people would do that. Even if we did do that, there is no way I could afford to support an elite skater. For starters, I have another child, and making us all suffer for one kid doesn't sit well with me. My SO and I have already discussed it. There is no way we're putting ourselves in financial peril over one child in figure skating. Not only is it an expensive sport, but it's not a sport that really invests in your child. Going all in on a team sport, for one is cheaper, and for another could set your child up financially for life. Even if it's a simple college scholarship, which is not an option for figure skating. The US just can't compete with countries who financially assist figure skaters.

We only have the one child, in large part because it became apparent relatively early on that this one was going to cost us a lot of money one way or another. And now with skating it just seems impossible to take on another child. I would LOVE another child and have always wanted 2-3 kids, but practically speaking it's not in the cards for us if we really want to give this first child the best chance at going far in this sport. I don't want to make it seem like we chose between skating and a sibling for our child, but I do want to agree that the very high cost of skating factors into our family planning decisions.

And now, as a member of the sandwich generation, I can't imagine putting the burden of financing my retirement and elderly care onto my child and thus, like you, I would not 'put ourselves in financial peril over figure skating.' My skater wants to go to the Olympics, sure. And he has quite a bit of talent so it's not completely out of the question. But if the costs of skating require sacrificing HIS future financial security by BEING a financial burden on him during my retirement and beyond, then I will not do it. I think it's highly irresponsible for parents to do such a thing. It's one thing to mortgage the house to pay for expensive healthcare but it's quite another to do so in order to pursue an Olympic dream.

In poorer areas there aren't even RINKS. And like el henry said, the fact that you even have a house you can mortgage, or extra cars to sell a la Johnny Weir, means you are privileged. No one is saying that all skaters have to come from the Kennedy or the Gates families, lol, but it's just weird to not admit that even living in an area with well-maintained rinks and real skating coaches means you're probably more well off than 50% of American families...

Agreed.

Also, the racial disparity is related to weather. Just look at the populations in climates that have naturally occurring frozen ponds to skate on during winter. Are they light skinned or dark skinned?

Both my husband and I grew up in areas without rinks. Figure skating, hockey, speed skating is all totally foreign to us. We grew up middle class in warm climates. Neither of us ever even considered any sort of ice sport as an option for our child. We stumbled upon it and kiddo fell in love. But we still live in a warm climate. There is no 'free ice' to ever practice on. That 'frozen cornfield' story that Johnny Weir tells... it's for people in cold climates. We could move to a cold climate... but the ability to move freely about the country is also a privilege, usually related to wealth.

that just sparked an idea...what if WE began a fund for these skaters? there are more than enough members here and many who i'm very sure would donate regularly. it could be done yearly (or every 6 months even) and then we could split the funds between a few skaters? if there are any other big skating forums out there we could ask them if they'd want to jump in as well. just brainstorming! :)

I LOVE this idea!
But yes there are practical concerns. How about this?
I have contributed to Starr Andrew's GoFundMe page in the past because I want to support skaters of color. What if we just have a thread with links to skater's GoFundMe pages? That's a start.
 

Garry12

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Another aspect of figure skating in US vs Russia (or Japan) is how respected and loved these athletes are. In Russia they become national heroes. They are supported during their transition into life after sport. In US it is a very different story. Girls may benefit from exposure during celebratory events and some publicity. For boys it is a different story, they absolutely have to have a good education to survive after sport which is often not possible with Olympic training. Only boys from rich families can continue for a log time in this sport.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
… I LOVE this idea!
But yes there are practical concerns. How about this?
I have contributed to Starr Andrew's GoFundMe page in the past because I want to support skaters of color. What if we just have a thread with links to skater's GoFundMe pages? That's a start.

AFAIK: The management of GS would need to give approval for such a thread. If it does give approval, great. :)

Over recent years, GS management has had an evolving policy re GoFundMe/crowdfunding links.

IIRC (not claiming that my memory is 100% accurate):
The earliest thing I remember is that people started posting crowdfunding links here and there in The Edge. Sometimes a brand-new thread was started for the sole purpose of drawing attention to a new crowdfunding link for a particular skater. [ETA: And I think there once was a thread in The Edge designed as a home for collecting crowdfunding links for any skater.]
Then GS management made a policy that crowdfunding links would be allowed only in "Share It!" and not in The Edge.
The policy later was revised to be that crowdfunding links would be allowed only in Fan Fest threads. I think, but am not sure, that this policy is currently in effect?​


.... There are rumors about another scholarship program based on skating, but still the amounts barely put a dent in the overall cost of skating. …

IIRC, it was mentioned in the new Governing Council report, I think?

ETA:

What I was thinking of:

APRIL 17, 2018

56. APPROVED requesting of the United States Figure Skating Foundation, beginning with the 2018-2019 season, the establishment of an Athlete High Performance Development Fund program within the Foundation, as well as funding for programs to take place at a new figure skating training center in Irvine, California.


http://www.usfsa.org/content/2017-18 Combined Report of Action.pdf (see p. 9 of ginormous PDF)​

Don't know whether it is the same thing that you had in mind?​


.... Also, the racial disparity is related to weather. Just look at the populations in climates that have naturally occurring frozen ponds to skate on during winter. Are they light skinned or dark skinned?

Both my husband and I grew up in areas without rinks. Figure skating, hockey, speed skating is all totally foreign to us. We grew up middle class in warm climates. Neither of us ever even considered any sort of ice sport as an option for our child. We stumbled upon it and kiddo fell in love. But we still live in a warm climate. There is no 'free ice' to ever practice on. That 'frozen cornfield' story that Johnny Weir tells... it's for people in cold climates. We could move to a cold climate... but the ability to move freely about the country is also a privilege, usually related to wealth. ...

Semi-rhetorical question: In 2018, how many Americans have their first skating experience on a frozen pond???

My guess is that the percentage would be very low??

My two cents: No question that there is a racial disparity, but lack of access to frozen ponds in 2018 does not strike me as a reason.

(Lest anyone wonder: I myself belong to a racial minority.)
 

mrrice

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
I'm curious about this. In general I think it's a good idea to offer some scholarships and assistance, but I'm not sure it would be enough.
The clubs in my area have scholarships but they are small. They require writing an essay, which just didn't make sense to us for our young skater (who has basically only ever written two essays in his life). There are rumors about another scholarship program based on skating, but still the amounts barely put a dent in the overall cost of skating.

What kind of scholarship program would make sense?



Lots? Really? I know of a few skaters who get some discounts due to a sort of bartering the parents do (example: a parent is a photographer and does pro photos for the rink in exchange for ice time) but the vast majority of us parents just pay everything out of pocket and try to make it work. And the skaters who go far? They all have parents with money.



We only have the one child, in large part because it became apparent relatively early on that this one was going to cost us a lot of money one way or another. And now with skating it just seems impossible to take on another child. I would LOVE another child and have always wanted 2-3 kids, but practically speaking it's not in the cards for us if we really want to give this first child the best chance at going far in this sport. I don't want to make it seem like we chose between skating and a sibling for our child, but I do want to agree that the very high cost of skating factors into our family planning decisions.

And now, as a member of the sandwich generation, I can't imagine putting the burden of financing my retirement and elderly care onto my child and thus, like you, I would not 'put ourselves in financial peril over figure skating.' My skater wants to go to the Olympics, sure. And he has quite a bit of talent so it's not completely out of the question. But if the costs of skating require sacrificing HIS future financial security by BEING a financial burden on him during my retirement and beyond, then I will not do it. I think it's highly irresponsible for parents to do such a thing. It's one thing to mortgage the house to pay for expensive healthcare but it's quite another to do so in order to pursue an Olympic dream.



Agreed.

Also, the racial disparity is related to weather. Just look at the populations in climates that have naturally occurring frozen ponds to skate on during winter. Are they light skinned or dark skinned?

Both my husband and I grew up in areas without rinks. Figure skating, hockey, speed skating is all totally foreign to us. We grew up middle class in warm climates. Neither of us ever even considered any sort of ice sport as an option for our child. We stumbled upon it and kiddo fell in love. But we still live in a warm climate. There is no 'free ice' to ever practice on. That 'frozen cornfield' story that Johnny Weir tells... it's for people in cold climates. We could move to a cold climate... but the ability to move freely about the country is also a privilege, usually related to wealth.



I LOVE this idea!
But yes there are practical concerns. How about this?
I have contributed to Starr Andrew's GoFundMe page in the past because I want to support skaters of color. What if we just have a thread with links to skater's GoFundMe pages? That's a start.




I think this is an excellent idea. I think causal fans see the pretty costumes and smiles and think these skaters are all rich and carefree. I would never have guessed that Ashley had to work in a coffee shop to make ends meet, or that some skaters have mortgaged their houses to pay for training.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Semi-rhetorical question: In 2018, how many Americans have their first skating experience on a frozen pond???

My guess is that the percentage would be very low??

My two cents: No question that there is a racial disparity, but lack of access to frozen ponds in 2018 does not strike me as a reason.

Places that have frozen ponds are also more likely to have ice rinks, because ice sports are more likely historically to have been part of the local culture. Of course climate isn't the only factor; you also need to keep in mind total population and land area and average income.

From a quick search through the USFS directory, it seems that the states with the most figure skating clubs are
New York 58
Michigan 51
Minnesota 48
Massachusetts 38
Wisconsin 31
Pennsylvania 27
California 25
Ohio 21
Colorado 20
Florida 17
Connecticut 16
New Jersey 16
Illinois 15
Washington 14
Texas 12

There does seem to be a trend favoring the colder, more densely populated states.
 

tothepointe

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 4, 2018
Go read about people like Jeremy Abbott, Adam Rippon, and so many other skaters that their parents (just as mine did) have to take out several mortgages on homes and work multiple jobs to keep their skater going.
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I will have to point out that even having a home now to take a mortgage on is starting to become a luxury in the US.

How do you make skating become more affordable at the lower levels to build enough talent to choose from is the real hat trick.

I'm not an expert and certainly don't play one on tv but I wonder if supervised practice sessions at the lower level would be workable since I see a lot of fluffing around on the ice amongst lower level skaters. Perhaps something to replicate that focus that ballet has. Like a coffee club session for kids. Something between just an open session and an actual class.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I'm not an expert and certainly don't play one on tv but I wonder if supervised practice sessions at the lower level would be workable since I see a lot of fluffing around on the ice amongst lower level skaters. Perhaps something to replicate that focus that ballet has. Like a coffee club session for kids. Something between just an open session and an actual class.

That would probably be useful.

But there needs to be some actual instruction as well, so they know what to practice and have the skills to do so.
 

mrrice

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
I'm interested to see if having Med training in the US will push our skaters to improve their tech skills. When I was dancing, just being around the Russian dancers made me push even harder to match them. They were very nice to all of us. After a while, we were no longer rivals but training mates. I hope that happens for Med and that she enjoys her time here.
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
I'm interested to see if having Med training in the US will push our skaters to improve their tech skills. When I was dancing, just being around the Russian dancers made me push even harder to match them. They were very nice to all of us. After a while, we were no longer rivals but training mates. I hope that happens for Med and that she enjoys her time here.

Uh, last I knew, Med was going to be training in Canada.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Places that have frozen ponds are also more likely to have ice rinks, because ice sports are more likely historically to have been part of the local culture. Of course climate isn't the only factor; you also need to keep in mind total population and land area and average income.

From a quick search through the USFS directory, it seems that the states with the most figure skating clubs are
New York 58
Michigan 51
Minnesota 48
Massachusetts 38
Wisconsin 31
Pennsylvania 27
California 25
Ohio 21
Colorado 20
Florida 17
Connecticut 16
New Jersey 16
Illinois 15
Washington 14
Texas 12

There does seem to be a trend favoring the colder, more densely populated states.

New York (58 clubs) has a black population of 2,773,800 (4th in state ranking); "Asian" population of 1,847,500 (2nd in state ranking).

Michigan (51 clubs): black 1,343,600 (13th); "Asian" 341,100 (13th).

Minnesota (48 clubs): black 348,600 (23rd); "Asian" 208,100 (20th).

Massachusetts (38 clubs): black 463,600 (21st); "Asian" 507,400 (10th).

Wisconsin (31 clubs): black 321,700 (26th); "Asian" 174,300 (21st).

Pennsylvania (27 clubs): black 1,354,700 (12th); "Asian" 504,200 (11th).

California (25 clubs): black 2,115,300 (6th); "Asian" 5,787,500 (1st).

Ohio (21 clubs): black 1,373,700 (11th); "Asian" 241,900 (16th).

Colorado (20 clubs): black 210,000 (32nd); "Asian" 215,900 (19th).

Florida (17 clubs): black 3,074,900 (3rd); "Asian" 559,000 (7th).

Connecticut (16 clubs): black 348,500 (24th); "Asian" 166,800 (22nd).

New Jersey (16 clubs): black 1,135,100 (16th); "Asian" 953,700 (4th).

Illinois (15 clubs): black 1,800,200 (7th); "Asian" 739,100 (5th).

Washington (14 clubs): black 245,200 (31st); "Asian" 728,800 (6th).

Texas (12 clubs): black 3,346,600 (1st); "Asian" 1,318,300 (4th).

[Per 2017 stats here: https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/distribution-by-raceethnicity/]

It would seem to me that the reasons for racial disparity go far beyond climate and club/rink density. YMMV.

ETA:
I have added "Asian" stats above.
And now have added all states in gkelly's post.​
 

tothepointe

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 4, 2018
That would probably be useful.

But there needs to be some actual instruction as well, so they know what to practice and have the skills to do so.

Of course. I guess what I was suggesting was supervised practice to supplement their private lessons and classes. Nothing high pressure for the younger student but something that helps them develop a workmanlike attitude. Learning how to practice is a skill and ice is expensive. A more formal version of a pushy mom but with the addition of a resource person who can step in and help if necessary or validate when someone is doing something right.
 

tars

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Places that have frozen ponds are also more likely to have ice rinks, because ice sports are more likely historically to have been part of the local culture. Of course climate isn't the only factor; you also need to keep in mind total population and land area and average income.

From a quick search through the USFS directory, it seems that the states with the most figure skating clubs are
New York 58
Michigan 51
Minnesota 48
Massachusetts 38
Wisconsin 31
Pennsylvania 27
California 25
Ohio 21
Colorado 20
Florida 17
Connecticut 16
New Jersey 16
Illinois 15
Washington 14
Texas 12

There does seem to be a trend favoring the colder, more densely populated states.
Wow, I don't think Russia has half as many figure skating clubs. :shocked:

Something must be wrong with the system there, if your women take 9-11 at Olympics. :scratch2:
 

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion
Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Well if only the richer / more privileged kids can skate, then yeah, there's less talents that can make a big name for themselves...it really sucks :cry:...
 

mrrice

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Well if only the richer / more privileged kids can skate, then yeah, there's less talents that can make a big name for themselves...it really sucks :cry:...

I've said this before and I'll say it again. In California, you can play football, baseball, soccer, tennis, volley ball, and any other outdoor sport such as swimming and diving for free. You can experiment with several sports without it costing more than the price of a ball. Skating is an expensive sport and I think some parents (Mine included) were/are not willing to pay for skates, lessons, and ice time when there's so little chance they'll see a return on their investment. Think about it. We know several mid-tier "Internationally" skaters that are not rich. Chartrand living in her motorhome was a good example of this. I think it could be fun if you don't have other children who need you but, the sacrifices these skaters make are unbelievable......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpnDPWhz19k
 
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