Random thoughts about music choices

Speaking of idols and making FS popular again

I remember watching a major competition, Olympics i think, on the youtube stream. It was dance, the early warmups. You know, 100-200 people watching, chat dead all this.
Then, there is suddenly 100500 people watching and talking in the chat. Guess what, it was Miu Suzaki & Ryuichi Kihara with their Yuri on Ice program. AFter their skate, most of those people left.

So, a thought here - don't beat me too hard. FS is really conservative in music choices. And, lets be honest, most people don't really care about classical music and operas. I kinda wish that there was more encouragement for the skaters to get out of the classical music + musicals sandbox, and get programs with more "popular" themes and music. By popular, I mean
1. using music from stuff that has major fandoms
2. actually doing something easy to identify (like, if doing a star wars program, dress up as a character, not just some generic barely inspired dress).

Medvedeva's Sailor Moon ex is a great example. I am pretty sure that most of the millions of people who watched it on youtube are not FS fans, but Sailor Moon fans.

But this sort of stuff seem to be not very welcome in competitive programs.


I know I will be bashed hard here, but i really think that this sort of programs would bring much more visibility (and not in a bad way) to figure skating.

I'd also love to see more modern and popular music being used, but I do think it's pretty unlikely.

I think the reason so many skaters choose classical music is because those kinds of pieces usually are supposed to convey a very specific set of emotions, so it's easy to create a specific mood during the skate.

I actually think that we are on the right track. I mean it seems to me that more skaters choose modern music and uncoventional music, just like in your examples compared to years ago. Especially since they have been allowed to use music with vocals.

And I would't want/like for classical music to disappear completely from fs as I enjoy it although I used to get very bored by it when I was a teen. Taste really changes.

What I don't really like is the overuse of some of the music.
We'll see next season if the music choices will be more original. But since it is not an olympic season my bet is that they will be.

I think the old warhorses (Vivaldi, Carmen, Aranguez, every tango in the world) are used because (1) coaches and choreographers are lazy - especially with the younger skaters; (2) it's easier to get the music; and (3) they probably already have the cut of music timed for the discipline. But I disagree that most people don't care about classical music and operas. When right, there are beautiful pieces that lend themselves to figure skating far more than some of the raucous stuff we heard this year. It was almost like "okay, you can use lyrics now" and some of the worst stuff came out that did NOT lend itself to figure skating. I do applaud people like Adam Rippon with his bird program and loved anything by ColdPlay. I believe you have to acquire the rights to use most music pieces and maybe it's just easier to use something you already have. BUT - I'm tired of watching junior, novice and intermediate skaters skate to heavy pieces. A little sprite of a girl skating to Aranguez is just ridiculous.

Allowing lyrics is one step in that direction. There have been high visibility programs (in terms of international exposure) to the Beatles, Queen, Moulin Rouge, James Bond, Michael Jackson, which, while not modern, are popular, well known pieces of music. If Ed Sheeran, Despacito & La La Land don't qualify as modern and popular, I'm not sure what does.

I think in terms of costumes, it needs to be something that is "skateable". The OP gave the example of Star Wars; for a female skater, there are only so many characters you can dress up as, and you can't have floor length skirts. And it's not like guys can exactly dress up as Darth Vader, complete with a mask and cape.

I'm all for fun EX programs. I wish more skaters would try to have fun with their EX (because most of them will play safe with competitive programs, so I'll have EX).

I think Yuzuru is going on the right track here, using Gundam SEED Destiny song. I think we'll be seeing some more Gundam > FS fans conversion now I was shocked when I found out, I was happy that I could talk about Yuzuru with non FS fans.

A few of my thoughts on why a lot of the times the same pieces of music are used:

1. Tried-and-true: Previous skaters have used the piece of music and have obtained good results with it. The piece of music is 'judge-friendly' and choreographers know how to work with these pieces.

2. Classical music in particular provides a nice backdrop to a program. On the other end of the spectrum, heavy metal rock and rap music could be quite distracting and could easily overshadow the skaters.

3. Lyrics were not allowed in all disciplines except ice dance until these past few years and that limited the overall number of music choices (unless the skaters skate to the instrumentals from the Vitamin String Quartet or similar instrumental cover bands).

Similar to the posters above me, I am liking the incorporation of lyrics in all FS disciplines and the increasing variety of programs we are seeing. I also like how the 2016/17 short dance allowed Hip-hop as one of the music choices, and we got to see some innovative programs like V/M's Prince SD. Broadway is going to be one of the themes for 2019/20, so we are seeing Ice Dance further branch out from the more traditional styles of its ballroom routes.

As for skaters' costumes, there are considerations like how to show off the skater's lines, posture, and not be obstructive to their skating in general.

I completely see your point. I was drawn into figure skating by Zhenya's Sailor Moon performance (hence avatar).

Although I see why warhorses are 'efficient', I wish more skaters would try to bring in more pop culture or, at least, more different/original music. This would be also a way of widen the appeal and advance the sport.

iorii said:

I'm all for fun EX programs. I wish more skaters would try to have fun with their EX (because most of them will play safe with competitive programs, so I'll have EX).

I think Yuzuru is going on the right track here, using Gundam SEED Destiny song. I think we'll be seeing some more Gundam > FS fans conversion now I was shocked when I found out, I was happy that I could talk about Yuzuru with non FS fans.

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Yes, I sort of forgave him for the costume when I got the reference

Video game soundtracks too - some of them are fabulous in their own right (Journey, Elder Scrolls/Morrowind, Legend of Zelda.... I would, to coin a phrase, kill to see Shoma do Assassin's Creed 3)

Off the top of my head, two programs from this past season that used popular music and drew in non-FS fans was Jimmy Ma's "Turn Down For What" SP and Jason Brown's "Hamilton" SP. Jason's program in particular definitely drew in a lot of people because Hamilton has such a huge following and even Lin-Manuel Miranda (the creator of the show!) was excited about it, and his costume closely resembled the costumes that the characters wear in the show

The way I see it, there's no "encouragement" for skaters to do these types of programs in competiton (although sometimes they still do) because they run the risk of catering too specifically to certain fandoms, thus alienating FS viewers who are not familiar with the source material. Sure, I think certain programs can transcend fandom and appeal to everyone, if they are derived from an amazing soundtrack in the first place, and are done exceptionally well. For example, you don't have to have watched any James Bond movies (and actually I never have) in order to appreciate how great Kim Yuna's Olympic SP was; the program was carried by her performance, as well as the soundtrack. I have never watched Schindler's List, but I could immediately grasp the character that Yulia was playing on ice. Same with Sasha Cohen's Romeo and Juliet. Great music, great choreography, and great presentation will make for a memorable program regardless of the source material that inspired it. The fact that the music or characters come from popular media is just the icing on the cake for those familiar with the inspiration, but that should never be the main selling point.

That's why I have such a problem with the recent incorporation of vocals in competitive programs. It feels like the skaters are dependent on the singers and their interpretation of the music. The artistry of the programs feel derived from, and secondary to the artistry of the vocalists. In some cases, it has been done well, but for the most part, I just find them incredibly distracting. There have been more bad programs with lyrics than good ones. The ones that I don't absolutely hate are either incredibly well done like Rippon's Coldplay program, or in a language I don't understand and can therefore pretend like the lyrics aren't there (like Katelyn Osmond's SP lol). There's a reason why a lot of skaters do programs to classical music, and there's a reason why it's called classical music in the first place. These pieces are timeless, and evoke emotions just as effectively, if not more so than any "popular" song of the current day. If you were a skater who's entire career has led up to the Olympics, would you really want the performance of your life, your magnum opus, to be remembered as that time you twerked on ice to "Despacito?" Especially years after the fact and once the song is no longer relevant? There are already established places for fun, whimsical, one off programs like that. One of them is called the Exhibition/Gala, and imo, that's really where most of these "popular" music programs need to stay. The other one is called Disney on Ice.

Your idea of what makes FS popular, or who watches FS, is a bit misinformed imo. Figure skating has never been a conventionally "popular" sport, and it will never be on the level of say football, or basketball in terms of viewership. It has always been a more "conservative" sport that caters to a somewhat elite, snooty (no offense) type of crowd. There's a reason why it's so expensive to raise a competitive skater and to buy figure skating tickets. When you say "most people don't really care about classical music and operas," I agree with you. Sure, but the people who watch FS are not "most people," and furthermore, these people do tend to care about classical music and operas. Of course, this is all a generalization. I myself am not a part of that crowd. I am a nerd who happened to get caught up in FS fandom during the Sochi Olympics. I think people around here might refer to those as...casuals? Nonetheless, I did like classical music long before I became a FS fan, and I am sure there are those out there who are the same way. If all that mattered was "popularity" in terms of attracting the most views, then heck, maybe all skaters should just skate programs to Rihanna songs all the time, or in scandalous outfits that make political statements and will draw front-page attention.

Anime (since it is the example you used in your opening post) would be particularly problematic for skating. First of all, a lot a lot of anime theme songs are very generic sounding and not that memorable. Your Yuri on Ice example is actually not that bad, as the piano (and thank god for no vocals) was quite suitable for the pair that used it (I did remember seeing it during the Olympics on TV). However, only fans of the anime (and I am not one of them) will find the program remotely memorable, and let's be honest, apart from using music from said popular anime, nothing about that program was exceptional. It didn't wow anyone, and certainly not the judges. Using music from super popular media like this is a cute stunt that might be able to get skaters a brief 5 minutes of fame (like a Buzzfeed article or something), but that's really it. It certainly does nothing for the popularity of the sport overall. The fact is that weebs will not suddenly morph into actual, longterm FS fans. As a nerd, I make YouTube videos where I replace original program music with those from popular media (games, anime, movies, etc.), thus catering to this exact crowd. I'd say that 90% of the time, the people who watch the videos are only there because of the music, and don't really care about the skaters (unless it's Hanyu but that's like a totally separate case lol) or the sport. All of the cringey comments are like, "came here for the song," or "omg Yuri On Ice saiko kawaiiiiiiii!" or "zomg Victorinkov Plushenkosexii-sama NEEDS to skate to this song lyke born to make history!!!!" and "Yaaaas GPF! I know wat that is and also sow cows!" Being a fan of both anime/games and figure skating, I can say that these fanbases don't cross over very well.

In general, most of the actual FS fanbase will not be attracted to anime because it is a very polarizing medium by nature. Even in Japan where anime originates from, I don't think FS fans would appreciate seeing more programs done to anime. They are still different fanbases. Of course, there are exceptions like the Ghibli films which are universally loved and have wonderful soundtracks that tbh, I would have expected to see utilized more in skating. Yuri on Ice is an anomaly because figure skating happens to be its subject matter. Thus fans of skating might want to watch it, and fans of the anime might want to learn more about skating. But on a larger scale, the anime and skating fanbases could not be more detached from one another. Sailor Moon fans will go crazy for Evgenia's EX because it was an instance of recognition for the thing they all like. They don't care about this Russian girl, her triple jumps, the fact that she's a two-time world champion, and they most likely won't care until the next time she does a similar program. Regardless of how many "millions" of them watch the video, very few will become actual fans of the sport because of it. You said it yourself. Most of them are just Sailor Moon fans. On the flip side of that, nobody who didn't care about Sailor Moon is going to suddenly watch through the entire anime just because Evgenia skated to it. We came for her jumps and her skating. That she is an anime geek is a just a cool trivia fact, nothing more. If she did it in competition, it would totally come off as bizarre, tacky, and confusing for people who don't care for Sailor Moon...such as most of the actual FS viewership for example.

So back to what you said about increasing the "visibility" or the sport, how will having more of these programs actually make FS more "popular?" Those who would actually care about these "popular" programs aren't going to necessarily care about FS after the fact, and those who are FS fans will be alienated. Sure, I think such media as big films with memorable soundtracks and actual universal appeal can make great programs, but as for more niche sources like anime and video games? Yeah, I don't see it happening. Of course, I would like for that to become a trend since I love anime and video game soundtracks (a lot of which have huge potential as FS programs), but I just don't see it appealing to most skating fans.

Imagine said:

If you were a skater who's entire career has led up to the Olympics, would you really want the performance of your life, your magnum opus, to be remembered as that time you twerked on ice to "Despacito?"

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The Olympics is a platform that gives the sport and the athlete an incredible amount of exposure. To reach more of the not-typically-figure-skating audience, I think a popular, well known piece of music is better than a classical piece. For example, a Moulin Rouge program is more effective than a Mahler program.

And I don't think rumba/samba counts as twerking. Having a SD and FD gives a skater the opportunity to show some versatility (subject to the rhythm required for the SD). Save the magnum opus for the free dance.

I have no deep thoughts on this matter. I just want to say:

HOW has no one done an exhibition skate to One Winged Angel yet!? It defies logic!

Imagine said:

I have never watched Schindler's List, but I could immediately grasp the character that Yulia was playing on ice.

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Ooof, not a great example if you want to decry gimmicks.

As for the anime comparison, I think there's anime and there's anime. You're probably going to get a good bite with something like Sailor Moon or Dragon Ball Z, since those were very much childhood staples for a lot of people in Western countries and sort of transcended the whole "anime is for geeks" thing. A more niche anime, perhaps one that didn't receive an English translation or never made it very big, is always going to be self-limiting.

But great music is great music and I don't think it matters the source if the music and the program are brilliant.

I hope to see the day when hip-hop music becomes warhorses

hanyuufan5 said:

HOW has no one done an exhibition skate to One Winged Angel yet!? It defies logic!

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And the award for best post of the year goes to....

karne said:

Ooof, not a great example if you want to decry gimmicks.

As for the anime comparison, I think there's anime and there's anime. You're probably going to get a good bite with something like Sailor Moon or Dragon Ball Z, since those were very much childhood staples for a lot of people in Western countries and sort of transcended the whole "anime is for geeks" thing. A more niche anime, perhaps one that didn't receive an English translation or never made it very big, is always going to be self-limiting.

But great music is great music and I don't think it matters the source if the music and the program are brilliant.

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I seriously would love to see the program to Death Note 2nd season intro music

On a serious note, I totally agree. If skater finds the music appealing, feels it and understands it, the judges will feel it and understand it as well.

I feel like skaters should be encouraged more to pick music that THEY like. They should be a part of the creative process too. Or maybe ask fans for suggestions. I have found so many songs that could work for figure skating. Some songs that you wouldn't expect. One of these include "Knock Knock" by Mac Miller. Another one includes the opening monologue for the 87th annual Academy Awards (Which I could totally see Kaetlyn Osmond skate to).

As for classical music, I'm one of those that would be totally fine if there was a competition with no classical music programs. When I hear them, it does make me wonder if it was the coaching staff or choreographer that chose the music.

The main thing I dislike about fs music, the horrible godawful quiet covers. Every time I see a new program and see the music title I get excited, and every time inevitably disappointed because it's a ukelele cover of Bohemian Rhapsody, or Michael Buble cover of Queen or something... it's like come on. There's instances where this works of course, for example James/Cipres Sound of Silence program worked good with the cover version, but 99 percent of the time it sucks. It ends up being even more distracting than if they were using the original, because I keep thinking about how much better it would have been had they used that instead. Imagine if Yuzuru used a slowed down acoustic cover of Let's go crazy!

Honestly I think the warhorses are the biggest problem. Even classical music I feel is going underappreciated in FS, Tchaikovsky has more than one ballet, Chopin has more than two nocturnes, there's TONS of amazing classical music for skating that no one has ever used... I feel like introducing lyrics was supposed to solve the problem and broaden the musical appeal of FS, but all it's done is mostly just introduce more boring warhorses plus the occasional weird stuff like Bolero with lyrics. Everybody has to play it safe, which I get, but at this point when I see "It's a man's world" or any similar song in the announcement card I just gotta hit mute. Sorry, Julian...

Then again, it is a competition, so maybe it's just inevitable that the most interesting music choices will be saved for the gala.

PinkElephants said:

Honestly I think the warhorses are the biggest problem. Even classical music I feel is going underappreciated in FS, Tchaikovsky has more than one ballet, Chopin has more than two nocturnes, there's TONS of amazing classical music for skating that no one has ever used...

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THIS!

I LOVE classical music, especially opera and even I go :curse: every time I see those warhorses listed as the skater's music choice, because you just know they are going to skate to exactly the same sections as everybody else. As you say, there are tons of classical pieces that have never been skated to, but even if one cannot think of any other opera besides say Carmen, how about skating to something other than Habanera or Intermezzo for a change? The piece is over 2 hours long and it's not like these are the only good parts in it.

Likewise, Carmina Burana is not just O Fortuna but there are 23 other movements to choose from, if one still wanted to play it safe by using a well known classical piece but perhaps be a little original at the same time? Even this feels like asking for too much though, so I'm not even holding my breath to see a program to e.g. a Beethoven piano sonata other than Moonlight or to some of his symphonies (and no I don't mean the 1st mov of 5th or the 4th mov of 9th despite those being far from overused in FS) any time soon.

In this context, Carolina Kostner's Shostakovich program, Marin Honda's Spring Sonata or Yuna Shiraiwa's Mussorgsky seem almost like revolutionary music choices!

Regarding modern popular music...err...I struggle to find the right words to express that I find most of the current pop hits utter trash that is already painful enough to listen to while e.g. shopping at the big markets etc., but that at the same time, I admit there is some good contemporary music that might be a good fit for skating; that people have different musical tastes and everybody has the right to enjoy even the kind of music I personally consider trash, and that btw I'm not snobbish by any means!