Backloading Bonus Limited By ISU | Page 19 | Golden Skate

Backloading Bonus Limited By ISU

lesnar001

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
The ISU may get its wish.

According to the comments of Tom Zakrajsek in this Phil Hersh article about the rule changes http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/06/14/281232048 skaters are already ditching 1/2 and 3/4 layouts in favour of 2/1 and 4/3 ones even though it's costing them time and money. It's difficult to see anyone doing harder ones than these if they're not even prepared to do 1/2 and and 3/4 ones that were already planned and paid for.

well if they were looking for balance - nothing could be more "balanced" than 30 or so programs all set up the same way.
 

IceBallerina

On the Ice
Joined
May 11, 2018
The combo isu did is a killer.
They limit the number of rewarded jumps + increase value for big jumps and punish harsher the falls.
This means it is ENTIRELY not worth to do a 4th jump in second half, because you not only don't get a bonus for it, but also risk falling or messing up and getting a bad GOE on it.

I have heard some people stating they want to remove the second half bonus all-together, and I don't think I agree with that. But I do think you're right about doing a 4th jump in the second half, many skaters will see it as unnecessary. I also think we will see the same layouts, but if they are brilliant programs I wouldn't mind.
 

StitchMonkey

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
The ISU may get its wish.

According to the comments of Tom Zakrajsek in this Phil Hersh article about the rule changes http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/06/14/281232048 skaters are already ditching 1/2 and 3/4 layouts in favour of 2/1 and 4/3 ones even though it's costing them time and money. It's difficult to see anyone doing harder ones than these if they're not even prepared to do 1/2 and and 3/4 ones that were already planned and paid for.

Well for some it might be more of a need. If they planned to end with a 2A for instances thinking that would be harmless, it probably feels like too much of a point hit now and I am sure that messes up some skaters and their programs more than others.

... and on that note! I am going to miss last minute 2As But with a 4/3 layout, i just don't think many will see it as worth it.
 

[email protected]

Medalist
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
I thought again and again and I am even more confident than before that the rule is stupid especially for the free skate. Alina and Evgeniya do not need it. If they are clean they are going to compete just with each other before the new quad generation grows up, backload or not backload. In fact, they would only look at each other: if Alina kept on backloading Zhenya would have to push herself.

With backloading we had a variety of program layouts. Even in Alina's fully backloaded DQ, the choice of jumps was strategic and it paid out when it was needed most - during the OG when she missed the first combo. Now all layouts will be similar: start with the hardest combo, place the opening combo single jump in the "backloading section" to have a back-up which may even bring more points. One easier combo like 2A-2T-2T will open the "backloading section". Depending on the appetite for risk the third combo might be or not be among the last 3 jumping passes. I don't think anyone will put it there including Zagitova and Medvedeva - the risk is too high for too little a reward, hence, the second combo will immediately follow the first.

In the second half we shall see spins and step sequences. It all reverts to where it was years ago.
 

Ziotic

Medalist
Joined
Dec 23, 2016
I thought again and again and I am even more confident than before that the rule is stupid especially for the free skate. Alina and Evgeniya do not need it. If they are clean they are going to compete just with each other before the new quad generation grows up, backload or not backload. In fact, they would only look at each other: if Alina kept on backloading Zhenya would have to push herself.

With backloading we had a variety of program layouts. Even in Alina's fully backloaded DQ, the choice of jumps was strategic and it paid out when it was needed most - during the OG when she missed the first combo. Now all layouts will be similar: start with the hardest combo, place the opening combo single jump in the "backloading section" to have a back-up which may even bring more points. One easier combo like 2A-2T-2T will open the "backloading section". Depending on the appetite for risk the third combo might be or not be among the last 3 jumping passes. I don't think anyone will put it there including Zagitova and Medvedeva - the risk is too high for too little a reward, hence, the second combo will immediately follow the first.

In the second half we shall see spins and step sequences. It all reverts to where it was years ago.

I tend to disagree about Alina v Med, the new rules favour Osmond significantly. Or even Tsurkaya with the larger jumps with better flow.

Also I expect we see someone like Alina have her last 3 jumping passes as 3F3T then 3F and 3S or 2A.

That way a big combo is still back half but she has a second chance to do it if she misses the first.

It really depends on if skaters have the stamina to do a big 3-3 after doing 4 other jumping passes, something that was not being done before. Even Alina started her jumping passes with the big combos upfront.
 

[email protected]

Medalist
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
I tend to disagree about Alina v Med, the new rules favour Osmond significantly. Or even Tsurkaya with the larger jumps with better flow.

It may favor Osmond but 7-8 points of difference (OG) is too big a gap to overcome when the Russians are clean, backload or not backload. Now, Zagitova is OGM winner - Medvedeva never lost to Osmond before. I just do not see any scenario when Kaetlyn shows up after the GP and suddenly will have a massive GOE/pcs boost over the top Russians.

The rest are way behind.


Also I expect we see someone like Alina have her last 3 jumping passes as 3F3T then 3F and 3S or 2A.

That way a big combo is still back half but she has a second chance to do it if she misses the first.

I see it differently. Alina said that she does not plan to change much overall. Hence, she will start with 3Lz-3Lo and will have 3Lz as a backup in the backloading part. Then she does not do 3F-3T - it's Medvedeva's combo. Alina will start the backloading part with 3F-2T-2Lo combo and also will have a 3F there. With such a layout she will lose about 2.5 backloading points but will have a much safer layout. All in all, it will be something like that:

3Lz-3Lo
2A-3T
3S
2A
Backloading starts
3F-2T-2Lo
3Lz
3F


By the way, thank you, Spirals for Miles for my 5555 thumbs up :)
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
I tend to disagree about Alina v Med, the new rules favour Osmond significantly. Or even Tsurkaya with the larger jumps with better flow.

Also I expect we see someone like Alina have her last 3 jumping passes as 3F3T then 3F and 3S or 2A.

That way a big combo is still back half but she has a second chance to do it if she misses the first.

It really depends on if skaters have the stamina to do a big 3-3 after doing 4 other jumping passes, something that was not being done before. Even Alina started her jumping passes with the big combos upfront.

I would say that the backloading rule makes no major difference. Alina and Zhenya will still have a decent margin over Osmond.
What favours Osmond a lot are the new GOEs.
 

skatenewbie

Medalist
Joined
Mar 16, 2017
I tend to disagree about Alina v Med, the new rules favour Osmond significantly. Or even Tsurkaya with the larger jumps with better flow.

Also I expect we see someone like Alina have her last 3 jumping passes as 3F3T then 3F and 3S or 2A.

That way a big combo is still back half but she has a second chance to do it if she misses the first.

It really depends on if skaters have the stamina to do a big 3-3 after doing 4 other jumping passes, something that was not being done before. Even Alina started her jumping passes with the big combos upfront.
i think Eteri girls will do 3-3 in 2nd half definitely. Maybe 2 combos in 2nd half at least. I wont be surprised if they do all 3 combos in 2nd half. Many skater do combo in 2nd half... Like -1Lo-3S/2A+3T are done in 2nd half after 2~3 jump passes in 1st half. If they do it right after 1st half it wont be that hard? Even Mirai Nagasu done 2A+3T+2T in 2nd half and Wakaba Higuchi done 3Lz+3T in 2nd half and both are 4th jumping pass, Mai Mihara done 2A+3T and 3Lz+2T+2Lo in 2nd half being the 4th and 5th jumping pass. Satoko done 2 2A+3T in 15/16 season being 5th and 7th jumping pass, in the new system both will get bonus. So its not that uncommon to do 2 big combo in 2nd half. I think most skater will open with 3-3 and solo jump. After that well get 2 combo and 1 solo jump as the last 3 jump pass in 2nd half.
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
It may favor Osmond but 7-8 points of difference (OG) is too big a gap to overcome when the Russians are clean, backload or not backload. Now, Zagitova is OGM winner - Medvedeva never lost to Osmond before. I just do not see any scenario when Kaetlyn shows up after the GP and suddenly will have a massive GOE/pcs boost over the top Russians.

The rest are way behind.




I see it differently. Alina said that she does not plan to change much overall. Hence, she will start with 3Lz-3Lo and will have 3Lz as a backup in the backloading part. Then she does not do 3F-3T - it's Medvedeva's combo. Alina will start the backloading part with 3F-2T-2Lo combo and also will have a 3F there. With such a layout she will lose about 2.5 backloading points but will have a much safer layout. All in all, it will be something like that:

3Lz-3Lo
2A-3T
3S
2A
Backloading starts
3F-2T-2Lo
3Lz
3F


By the way, thank you, Spirals for Miles for my 5555 thumbs up :)

Overall, I see Alina doing 2 combos in second half.
I mean, her current layout was tailored to have her do all the combos first. But if you look at Zhenya's layout, her 3 last jumping passes are combo, combo and then a solo jump.
Considering Alina had the stamina to fully backload, I see her doing the same. Specially that now she will have just 3 jumps in second half, which means enough time to rest between jumps.

2A-3T or 3F-2T-2Lo
3F
3S
2A
Backloading starts
3Lz-3Lo
2A-3T or 3F-2T-2Lo *whatever is more consistent for her
3Lz

If she misses 3Lz-3Lo, she still can add a 3Lo to the second 3Lz.
This way, she loses around 2 points, and it is still a fairly safe / doable layout for her.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
I thought again and again and I am even more confident than before that the rule is stupid especially for the free skate. Alina and Evgeniya do not need it. If they are clean they are going to compete just with each other before the new quad generation grows up, backload or not backload. In fact, they would only look at each other: if Alina kept on backloading Zhenya would have to push herself.

With backloading we had a variety of program layouts. Even in Alina's fully backloaded DQ, the choice of jumps was strategic and it paid out when it was needed most - during the OG when she missed the first combo. Now all layouts will be similar: start with the hardest combo, place the opening combo single jump in the "backloading section" to have a back-up which may even bring more points. One easier combo like 2A-2T-2T will open the "backloading section". Depending on the appetite for risk the third combo might be or not be among the last 3 jumping passes. I don't think anyone will put it there including Zagitova and Medvedeva - the risk is too high for too little a reward, hence, the second combo will immediately follow the first.

In the second half we shall see spins and step sequences. It all reverts to where it was years ago.

This is an argument for not having a backloading bonus at all, IMO. There was more variety under 6.0 and difficult elements were done in the second half. Some examples are Michelle's 3T at the end of her Salome program at 1996 Worlds, Tara's 3-half loop-3 near the end of her program at Nagano, Midori Ito's 3T -3T in the second half of her long program at 1989 NHK and her 3A thrown in near the end of her long program at the Olympics (can't remember which one).
ETA: Also, Michelle almost always did a 3L as her final jump in her long program.
 

lesnar001

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
This is an argument for not having a backloading bonus at all, IMO. There was more variety under 6.0 and difficult elements were done in the second half. Some examples are Michelle's 3T at the end of her Salome program at 1996 Worlds, Tara's 3-half loop-3 near the end of her program at Nagano, Midori Ito's 3T -3T in the second half of her long program at 1989 NHK and her 3A thrown in near the end of her long program at the Olympics (can't remember which one).
ETA: Also, Michelle almost always did a 3L as her final jump in her long program.

I agree with the sentiment that there was more variety under 6.0. But I think that the "sameness" in programs was a result of COP itself - not just the backloading bonus. Thus - some of the stunning moves we used to see - like a blurring scratch spin, or long spiral sequences - went the way of the dinosaur. The emphasis will be on what will get the most points. If we are lucky - we may get to see these in some exhibition programs.

One of the many reasons I liked Alina's DQ so much was that it was, for me, so different than any other programs. Yes - the elements were the same, but the layout and the build up of the music and the jumps was very exciting. I also thought the ending spin was a big highlight - especially the way it stopped suddenly with the end of the music.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
Anyone else think this rule had a sort of negative effect on the SP’s we saw on the JGP today. I’m hoping the FS goes a bit better. IMO the diversity and excitement we saw last season was replaced with a bit of predictability and sameness from program to program :yawn:
 

BillNeal

You Know I'm a FS Fan...
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
Before it was so predictable which of the same skaters would backload. I can now actually appreciate their programs with the better distribution of elements. The pairs discipline had gotten rid of the 2nd half bonus that applied to jumps, throws, and lifts and look how that discipline has thrived today. Choreographers can now tailor their programs to the music rather than exploit music to tailor to backloading.
 

Ziotic

Medalist
Joined
Dec 23, 2016
From what I saw today, the programs were all different.

Some chose to do the combo last (which I've never seen before), some chose the flip and some chose the axel.

Some programs started with spins some with jumps.

Some had two jumps in a row, some had a jump and then two spins.

Really with 7 elements there are only so many different layouts for a short, plus juniors are limited as top level skaters will do 2A/3A, 3Lz+combo, and 3F.

I'm really confused as to how you though every program was the same :think::scratch3:
 

Ziotic

Medalist
Joined
Dec 23, 2016
Absolutely.

I mean really, if having all three jumping passes as the last elements was the right move choreographically...then wouldn't people do it regardless of if they get more points.

I feel like people want it both ways.

"Backloading is a show of athleticism NOT a point grab of the system"
"Backloaded programs are well balanced and fit the music"

So if those WERE true, why didn't we see any today??

Furthermore, wouldn't judges reward those programs with high GOE for the sheer athleticism of it all?
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Anyone else think this rule had a sort of negative effect on the SP’s we saw on the JGP today. I’m hoping the FS goes a bit better. IMO the diversity and excitement we saw last season was replaced with a bit of predictability and sameness from program to program :yawn:

I think the negative impact that I noticed was not due to LACK of backloading, but seeing everyone "front-load" two passes. IMO, ISU messed up by not offering two jumping passes in the bonus.
 

Ziotic

Medalist
Joined
Dec 23, 2016
I think for the short program there shouldn't have been any bonus.

Really its a 2.5 min program, why would there be a stamina bonus for that.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
I think the negative impact that I noticed was not due to LACK of backloading, but seeing everyone "front-load" two passes. IMO, ISU messed up by not offering two jumping passes in the bonus.

Yup...that’s the way it felt for me. Not sure yet how to react. I’ll have to put in a few more events before I can make an honest conclusion but for me ..... I’m gonna give it a bit of a :handw:
 
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