Backloading Bonus Limited By ISU | Page 18 | Golden Skate

Backloading Bonus Limited By ISU

narcissa

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 1, 2014
So true, and so sad. Under the current scoring system no skater will lift a finger unless he gets a tenth of a point for doing so. :(

When Dick Button was skating he took great pride in upping the ante in terms of difficulty every season, even though he was going to win anyway.

1948 1st double Axel. (Also first flying camel spin.)
1949 First 2L0+2Lo combination.
1950 First 2Lo+2Lo+2Lo combo. (He did not get 1.70 points for each one, he just thought it was cool.)
1951 First 2A+2Lo combination and first 2A+2A sequence.
1952 First triple jump.

OT -- Speaking of 1948, was this the first 'Tano (aka, the Rada)? :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46bHRVndot0&t=1m35s

I beg to differ ;)

In Let's Go Crazy, both Yuzu's sit spin and camel spin had extremely difficult entries that would normally qualify as a feature that would earn a level on the spin, but he was only allowed to use the feature once, so his second difficult entry received no points. AKA he was doing it for purely artistic value, and IMO the entry matched the music perfectly. This tumblr post gives better detail on the entries (and is also where I learned this information) as well as gifs :)

Many would say that Yuzu's 3 quad layout could win any competition and certainly his score from 2015 with 2+3 quads has not been broken yet. Seems like judges are saying that if he's consistent, he would win against the current field. He could've worked on consistency, but he upgraded his jumps instead, which destabilized his jumps, leading to inconsistency, loss of titles, no consistency PCS boost, etc. Why? Because he wants to push himself and the sport.

So I do heartily disagree that not one single skater nowadays values artistry and upping the ante unless it was for winning's sake :agree:
 
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
I beg to differ ;)

In Let's Go Crazy, both Yuzu's sit spin and camel spin had extremely difficult entries that would normally qualify as a feature that would earn a level on the spin, but he was only allowed to use the feature once, so his second difficult entry received no points. AKA he was doing it for purely artistic value, and IMO the entry matched the music perfectly. This tumblr post gives better detail on the entries (and is also where I learned this information) as well as gifs :)

Many would say that Yuzu's 3 quad layout could win any competition and certainly his score from 2015 with 2+3 quads has not been broken yet. Seems like judges are saying that if he's consistent, he would win against the current field. He could've worked on consistency, but he added jumps instead, which destabilized his jumps, leading to inconsistency, loss of titles, no consistency PCS boost, etc. Why? Because he wants to push himself and the sport.

So I do heartily disagree that not one single skater nowadays values artistry and upping the ante unless it was for winning's sake :agree:

I think the point Mathman is trying to make is that very few would want to. I think the current men's field tries to push itself pretty well. The top ones all have difficult combos all through their programs, for instance. But this can't really be expected. It's what has the trend unfortunately been for this long.

I do think Hanyu will do the 4A now. There might be attempts at it in the future. But how many else will do it because of there being so little incentive? It's merely the nature of a sport. And history isn't on the side of wishful thinking. And the posters here are pretty much pointing that out.
 

narcissa

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 1, 2014
I think the point Mathman is trying to make is that very few would want to. I think the current men's field tries to push itself pretty well. The top ones all have difficult combos all through their programs, for instance. But this can't really be expected. It's what has the trend unfortunately been for this long.

I do think Hanyu will do the 4A now. There might be attempts at it in the future. But how many else will do it because of there being so little incentive? It's merely the nature of a sport. And history isn't on the side of wishful thinking. And the posters here are pretty much pointing that out.

Point taken. But maybe Dick Button was a unicorn back in the 40's and 50's as well? I'm not very familiar with past eras, so I'm not sure how many skaters upped their ante without any incentive to do so. But I do get the impression from people who prefer the 6.0 system that somehow that was more encouraged than it is nowadays.
 
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
Point taken. But maybe Dick Button was a unicorn back in the 40's and 50's as well? I'm not very familiar with past eras, so I'm not sure how many skaters upped their ante without any incentive to do so. But I do get the impression from people who prefer the 6.0 system that somehow that was more encouraged than it is nowadays.

I'm not all too familiar either. But this is still technically present in the men's field. When Boyang Jin appeared with his 4Lz-3T, that did spur an "Ah, we can do it!" movement within the men's field. Here was a skater who, if he could've matched the rest of his skating to his jumping ability, who would have become a huge threat for the OGM this year. That's an incentive. A rivalry. There were also points associated with it, though, so other skaters would need to match such a combo, too. But now if someone does do something like a 4A, what's stopping the rest of the field from going "sure, that's great", and just moving on? This will technically spur an "Ah, we can do it!" movement, too, but will it be so widespread?

Not too sure. Athletes do want to push themselves, but incentives are incentives. I hope they do push themselves anyway, but the judging and the rules make it very difficult.

We might see 4-4s, though!

ETA: I do think this bonus being nerfed affects the men's field a little less, because they do try to spread difficult combos throughout their programs. But that was also under the previous. Goodness knows...
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Point taken. But maybe Dick Button was a unicorn back in the 40's and 50's as well? I'm not very familiar with past eras, so I'm not sure how many skaters upped their ante without any incentive to do so. ....

They had an incentive to do so. The incentive was that the judges gave higher ordinals to the skaters that presented the most challenging technical content and delivered the most satisfying presentation.

I think the difference now is that what constitutes the "most challenging technical content" is micro-managed too much by the constant fiddling with tenths of a point for this and that, while lots of good stuff (like Hanyu's spin entrances or 1-foot Axels) are ignored and disincentivized by the official scoring system.

For instance, the change in the backloading bonus will no doubt result in 18.6423% fewer jumps in the second half, over all skaters. The CoP mentality is that this is wonderful -- or would it be better if it were 19.5481%?

Off topic, but here is something crazy. The U.S. State of Maine is voting today as to whether they will change the statewide electoral system from plurality-takes-all to ranked ordinals. Interesting experiment. :)
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I beg to differ ;)

In Let's Go Crazy, both Yuzu's sit spin and camel spin had extremely difficult entries that would normally qualify as a feature that would earn a level on the spin, but he was only allowed to use the feature once, so his second difficult entry received no points. AKA he was doing it for purely artistic value, and IMO the entry matched the music perfectly.

It received no TES points, but it could contribute the the program earning higher PCS. For Composition and Interpretation if the movement matches the music well, and for Transitions by contributing to the difficulty and variety thereof (and quality and continuity of movement if the judges thought he did it well).

For that matter, "Element matched to musical structure" is a GOE bullet point, so if the entry and also the rest of the spin fit the music especially well, there could be a slight benefit to the TES in the GOE for that element.
 

Miller

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 29, 2016
Some quick figures.

Alina's 1st 3 jumping passes in her Don Quixote program took 48 seconds from the end of the step sequence to the start of the layback spin.

The last 4 jumping passes took 40 seconds from the end of the layback spin to the start of the final combo spin.

Wakaba Higuchi's 3/4 Bond program takes 2 minutes and 50 seconds to do all jumps, starting from the start.

Given these sort of figures won't every single SP and LP for both men and women consist of all jumps done in the SP by the 1 minute 30s mark, and all in the LP by say the 2 minute 50 second mark? Won't the final 1 minute 10 or 20 seconds just consist of spins and steps/choreo seq?

Of course if they're all as brilliant as Wakaba's program then fantastic, but somehow I feel they won't, it's going to drive everyone nuts, I predict.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
It doesnt give some special artistic purpose to Zagitova program itself, but it adds articism to the competition as a whole, by encouraging exploring of different possibilities. Thats the point!

That is an interesting point and a valid one, I think. Certainly there was an extra buzz at the Olympics over whether Alina would be able to pull it off.

However, I do believe that the ISU wants all programs to be the same. If they didn't, the rules would not be so restrictive as far as what elements are required, what is forbidden, and which skills receive higher point values than others. I think the guiding philosophy is. "It's a sport." In a sport everyone does the same thing and whoever does it best wins. If you do something different from someone else, "that's not sporting" because subjective judging can creep in.
 

ramurphy2005

Unabashed Mainer
On the Ice
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Country
United-States
Off topic, but here is something crazy. The U.S. State of Maine is voting today as to whether they will change the statewide electoral system from plurality-takes-all to ranked ordinals. Interesting experiment. :)

Continuing the OT, we'll see how it works, since I'm off to go vote. :)


As for back loading, I've always thought that having it in the SP was a bad idea, but we'll see how the changes work in the LP now.
 
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
That is an interesting point and a valid one, I think. Certainly there was an extra buzz at the Olympics over whether Alina would be able to pull it off.

However, I do believe that the ISU wants all programs to be the same. If they didn't, the rules would not be so restrictive as far as what elements are required, what is forbidden, and which skills receive higher point values than others. I think the guiding philosophy is. "It's a sport." In a sport everyone does the same thing and whoever does it best wins. If you do something different from someone else, "that's not sporting" because subjective judging can creep in.

Unfortunately, I think you're right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLryZGvXJNU

:shrug:
 

narcissa

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 1, 2014
That is an interesting point and a valid one, I think. Certainly there was an extra buzz at the Olympics over whether Alina would be able to pull it off.

However, I do believe that the ISU wants all programs to be the same. If they didn't, the rules would not be so restrictive as far as what elements are required, what is forbidden, and which skills receive higher point values than others. I think the guiding philosophy is. "It's a sport." In a sport everyone does the same thing and whoever does it best wins. If you do something different from someone else, "that's not sporting" because subjective judging can creep in.

I know, many fans were very sad when these glorious back crossrolls had to be taken out of Seimei because it no longer met the requirements for the step sequence :(
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
However, I do believe that the ISU wants all programs to be the same. If they didn't, the rules would not be so restrictive as far as what elements are required, what is forbidden, and which skills receive higher point values than others. I think the guiding philosophy is. "It's a sport." In a sport everyone does the same thing and whoever does it best wins. If you do something different from someone else, "that's not sporting" because subjective judging can creep in.

I dont think so. CD was a thing were everybody did literally the same thing and now is not a part of the competition. Figures too. Variety as a concept is rewarded through many GOE and PCS. Originality of the element is even double GOE feature in ice dance according to changed rules. Music with lyrics. Zayak rule. No repetition of two quads etc etc etc... They just didnt look at backloading in that broader sense...
 

figurefan0726

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 21, 2016
I have a question. It says only one jump in the second half of the SP will receive a bonus. 1. Can a combo is counted as “one jump?” 2. Can the judges give higher GOE for the jumps in the second half that won’t receive the bonus?
 

Harriet

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Country
Australia
I have a question. It says only one jump in the second half of the SP will receive a bonus. 1. Can a combo is counted as “one jump?” 2. Can the judges give higher GOE for the jumps in the second half that won’t receive the bonus?

Yes, it means the final jumping pass in the second half of the SP receives the bonus, whether it's a solo jump or a combination.

If the skater does other jumping passes in the second half that warrant high GOE, the judges are allowed to give them high GOE, but there's no bullet point for 'done in the second half of the program' so they can't get them automatically. :)
 

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset
Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 12, 2014
Country
United-States
As an Alina fan I’m ok with they naming it after her, it shows that she’s powerful enough to make a whole sport changes its rules just because they can’t compete with her.

To me, that's a rather cynical view of why the rule is changing. I'd rather think that the change is because those in the sport really do find the idea of encouraging balance in programs a value that should be rewarded.

I always thought that Alina's fully backloaded SP was effective and well matched to the music. But for me, it didn't fulfill the aesthetic qualities that I want to see in all figure skating programs, and the backloading was part of that, along with so many transitions that some of the beautiful movements and positions didn't receive enough attention. I think that holding positions and stretching out the moves is a big part of the emotional resonance that figure skating, at its best, wants to create. YMMV.
 

madmax

Rinkside
Joined
Sep 6, 2017
I'm already missing challenging and high-risk programs like DQ.
Oh well, I think I'll have to wait for the senior debut of the "quad generation".
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
That is an interesting point and a valid one, I think. Certainly there was an extra buzz at the Olympics over whether Alina would be able to pull it off.

However, I do believe that the ISU wants all programs to be the same. If they didn't, the rules would not be so restrictive as far as what elements are required, what is forbidden, and which skills receive higher point values than others. I think the guiding philosophy is. "It's a sport." In a sport everyone does the same thing and whoever does it best wins. If you do something different from someone else, "that's not sporting" because subjective judging can creep in.

I kinda disagree with this view.
It may work for men, but for ladies... Currently, under new rules, most top ladies can do literally the same layout. The differences in TES alone will be minor, so it will be all up to GOE and PCs. A skater won't be able to win based on the athletic skills, but it will be quite easy for judges to award GOEs and PCs subjectively (as they already do).
Imho, "it is sporting" when, while doing the same thing, the skaters have room to show their athletic skills. For example, if you say "do a jump", a skater can do a single, a double, a triple. They are all doing the same element, a jump. Whoever does the harder element, wins. But now, in ladies, we have a situation where all the girls will do a triple, and then it will be exclusively up to judges to decide who was the best.
 

Miller

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 29, 2016
That is an interesting point and a valid one, I think. Certainly there was an extra buzz at the Olympics over whether Alina would be able to pull it off.

However, I do believe that the ISU wants all programs to be the same. If they didn't, the rules would not be so restrictive as far as what elements are required, what is forbidden, and which skills receive higher point values than others. I think the guiding philosophy is. "It's a sport." In a sport everyone does the same thing and whoever does it best wins. If you do something different from someone else, "that's not sporting" because subjective judging can creep in.

The ISU may get its wish.

According to the comments of Tom Zakrajsek in this Phil Hersh article about the rule changes http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/06/14/281232048 skaters are already ditching 1/2 and 3/4 layouts in favour of 2/1 and 4/3 ones even though it's costing them time and money. It's difficult to see anyone doing harder ones than these if they're not even prepared to do 1/2 and and 3/4 ones that were already planned and paid for.
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
The ISU may get its wish.

According to the comments of Tom Zakrajsek in this Phil Hersh article about the rule changes http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/06/14/281232048 skaters are already ditching 1/2 and 3/4 layouts in favour of 2/1 and 4/3 ones even though it's costing them time and money. It's difficult to see anyone doing harder ones than these if they're not even prepared to do 1/2 and and 3/4 ones that were already planned and paid for.

The combo isu did is a killer.
They limit the number of rewarded jumps + increase value for big jumps and punish harsher the falls.
This means it is ENTIRELY not worth to do a 4th jump in second half, because you not only don't get a bonus for it, but also risk falling or messing up and getting a bad GOE on it.
 
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