Rules Made Because of Skaters

cinnamon · Jun 10, 2018

Colonel Green said:
Going way back, arguably the first big reduction of the value of compulsory figures was in response to Trixi Schuba.

I call it Janet Lynn rule, though Schuba was so exact and excellent.

nocturnalis · Jun 10, 2018

4everchan said:
you are mistaken here

flip BV was lowered while the 3T BV was raised during the time they were skating....

so even if it's a small 0.1 value, she is right.... the ISU did not encourage them to land very hard sbs 3lz... in fact, they raised the value of the simplest and most common jump, the 3t..... do i need to elaborate?

Don't the throw triple lutz and the throw triple flip have the same value and are classified as the same jump even though the throw triple lutz is much harder?

draqq · Jun 10, 2018

nocturnalis said:
Don't the throw triple lutz and the throw triple flip have the same value and are classified as the same jump even though the throw triple lutz is much harder?

From what I remember, yes, the throw 3Lz and throw 3F have the same value for some reason. Not sure why since I think it's more difficult to generate momentum going into the entry for the throw lutz in comparison to the throw flip. Either way, that does devalue the 3Lz a bit, and gives an advantage to Sui/Han and Savchenko/Massot who perform stellar throw 3Fs.

cohen-esque · Jun 10, 2018

4everchan said:
you are mistaken here

flip BV was lowered while the 3T BV was raised during the time they were skating....

so even if it's a small 0.1 value, she is right.... the ISU did not encourage them to land very hard sbs 3lz... in fact, they raised the value of the simplest and most common jump, the 3t..... do i need to elaborate?

*Before* they won their first world title, though. The 3F/LzTh and the 3F/3Lz have had the same values over this whole quad and the 3T/3S values had already been raised starting that season.

yume · Jun 10, 2018

Why did spirals sequence become non-compulsory?

Alchamei · Jun 10, 2018

yume said:
Why did spirals sequence become non-compulsory?

My speculations: Many skaters repeated the same pattern (arabesque to catch foot, then Y-spiral or cross-foot), the spirals were of inferior quality in many cases and it took too much time in the actual program.

Alchamei · Jun 10, 2018

anonymoose_au said:
Yes! And to stop programs that ended with the skater "dying" on the ice at the end - which was probably for the best because everybody was doing it!

Torville and Dean only did the kneeling thing to take advantage of a loophole in the rules where the program didn't actually count as having started until the man put his skates on the ice. They felt that they couldn't cut Bolero down any more, so that way they could have the extra thirty seconds in and not get a time deduction.

I for one would like to know when the no-tights for men came in...who was responsible for that one I wonder!

Funnily enough, lying or prolonged sitting on the ice is allowed again :rock:

I actually like that rule. It allows skaters to get more creative with their choreo.

Colonel Green · Jun 10, 2018

It's almost jarring to go back and watch the 2010 competition and see everybody doing all these lengthy spiral sequences, in comparison to today.

Ziotic · Jun 10, 2018

I feel like the spiral sequence should go back into the short and have different requirements that rotate through the years.

I think that would help it be very technical and force good edge work and nice positions.

icetigger · Jun 10, 2018

gkelly said:
SOLO 3A in place of the required 2A.

Tonya Harding did 3A combination in the short program at 1991 Skate America. It was always legal in the combination when the combination allowed at least one triple.

Plus Midori ito 1991 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx0GbYzcWao

One wonder what would have been the case if both these ladies were able to do a solo axel in the short.

The guideline about skaters not being given 10s in pcs for a skate with a serious error is the Virtue and Moir rule.

yume · Jun 10, 2018

Alchamei said:
My speculations: Many skaters repeated the same pattern (arabesque to catch foot, then Y-spiral or cross-foot), the spirals were of inferior quality in many cases and it took too much time in the actual program.

I see. Surely why it seems that speed was more valued than positions.

cohen-esque · Jun 10, 2018

I think it’s unfair to have an element that is based primarily on positions. It will inevitably favor some skaters and some body types over others. I would prefer if spirals emphasized technical aspects more: ice coverage, strength and depth of edges, ability to hold a spiral on inside or outside, front or back edges. And then, poor positions should be penalized more than excellent positions should be rewarded, since what most seem to consider to be the latter may not even be obtainable for some.

But as t was it seemed like pretty much *everyone* bar one or two skaters in an event could get a level 4 on spirals before they were removed (look the 2010 protocols and try to find a Level 2), even if the same skaters could never manage level 4 four spins and steps. Perhaps they were too easy to be of much use in evaluating skaters anymore if everyone could achieve that.

Mathman · Jun 10, 2018

cohen-esque said:
Perhaps they were too easy to be of much use in evaluating skaters anymore if everyone could achieve that.

I think that's right, but I am sad about it even so. The long, glorious, dramatic spiral used to be the absolute highlight of many ladies' programs (along with an iconic layback spin). In my opinion the sport is diminished by downplaying this element. It's a down-right non-Cohenesque shame. :yes:

sweetice · Jun 10, 2018

I just don't get why referring to some rules as something versus or pro only a single skater, not unless we'll see a retroactive rule that change a result.

dorispulaski · Jun 11, 2018

Terry Kubicka did a backflip successfully in competition. The following season, back flips were banned.

Ladskater · Jun 11, 2018

el henry said:
I prefer to think of it in a more positive light: the move toward reduction of the weight accorded to figures resulted from the brilliance of Toller (and Janet Lynn) not being adequately recognized.

I would also add in Karen Magnussen in that sentence as both Karen Magnussen and Janet Lynn competed against Trixi Schuba and were always behind Trixi in the school figures.

Miller · Jun 12, 2018

Mathman said:
I think that's right, but I am sad about it even so. The long, glorious, dramatic spiral used to be the absolute highlight of many ladies' programs (along with an iconic layback spin). In my opinion the sport is diminished by downplaying this element. It's a down-right non-Cohenesque shame. :yes:

The max value of the Choreo Seq has increased from 4.1 points to 5.5 as part of the new rules, the base value has even increased from 2.0 to 3.0, only one AFAIK. Let's hope this will mean a return to what you say, though how you quite reconcile it with programs staying the same length for women, and being reduced for men I don't know - if only all programs were 4 mins 15s +/- 15s, that way you could have still had 4 minute Ladies programs, and 4min 30s men ones, with 1 less jumping pass.

pohatta · Jun 12, 2018

The Candeloro knee spin got banned.

gkelly · Jun 12, 2018

Miller said:
if only all programs were 4 mins 15s +/- 15s, that way you could have still had 4 minute Ladies programs, and 4min 30s men ones, with 1 less jumping pass.

In that case you could also have 4 minute men's programs and 4:30 ladies' programs, all with 7 jumping passes.

yume · Jun 12, 2018

When did tights become mandatory ( I assume they are mandatory)? Surya Bonaly were not always in tights.

Rules Made Because of Skaters

cinnamon

nocturnalis

draqq

FigureSkatingPhenom

cohen-esque

yume

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Alchamei

Alchamei

Colonel Green

Ziotic

icetigger

yume

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cohen-esque

Mathman

sweetice

Praise the Ice God

dorispulaski

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Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~

Miller

pohatta

gkelly

yume

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