Rescoring past competitions w/ new SOV+rules

Old Cat Lady · Jun 12, 2018

My power of procrastination is extra strong these days so I re-watched the top 5 free skates at the Olympics with the new scoring system
1. rather than giving the bonus to the last 3 jumps I gave it to the 3 highest scoring elements in the 2nd half since that is likely what the skater would do
2. I merely re-scored the tech - didn't eliminate any jumps for quad/jumping pass limitations, change any tech calls, or change PCS
3. I tried to strictly follow the GOE guidelines so the scoring is probably not realistic
4. When I started, I wasn't sure if you were supposed to merely add positive bullets then subtract negative bullets or stick to the "must have bolded" criteria in order to get greater than +3 and then subtract the negatives. I think I waffled between the two methods with Nathan and Shoma but then by the time I got to Hanyu I decided that it didn't make sense to do it the first way so I went strictly by the "3 unless you have the bolded parts" and then subtract. Might redo Nathan and Shoma later.
5. watched on YouTube so most are on high quality fan cams so not the greatest angles

Scoring his programs made me appreciate Nathan's program more. He might not have transitions, but the composition is fantastic. I gave all his elements credit for working with the phrasing of the music.

Speaking of pops, Javi had a beautiful double salchow. Gave it +3

Thought it was interesting how close Hanyu's score is to the originals. Thought the new system would inflate it. I feel like I did something wrong - don't get why the scores are down across the board when I didn't drop any elements even for skaters with good quality jumps. The 10% bonus on 1 jump wouldn't make that much of a difference.

The system isn't as friendly to Boyang as I thought it would be. Never realized how long the setups to his jumps were.

Having some sympathy for the judges. I cheated with replays and I still had a lot of doubts about my marks.

Maybe it's easier to see in real life, but without the benefit of perfect angles it's pretty hard to see Shoma's pre-rotations. The one benefit of watching on fancams is that you get a better idea of what it's like to be a judge since everything is from the same angle. To be honest, I found myself looking for them since I knew they were there and I still had a hard time seeing it.

We really do need a 2nd panel of judges for PCS. Maybe if I study the SoV I would be able to make quicker judgments but I found myself weighing the positives and negatives of the elements so much that I couldn't even see the program as a whole.

Should score Zhou since he was so close but way past my bedtime. Maybe tomorrow.

4everchan · Jun 12, 2018

Old Cat Lady said:
Never understand why people feel a need to say this except some need to have the last say even though they have nothing to add. OBVIOUSLY it's "in my opinion". Just like everything you say is in your opinion. Just like 99% of everything written on these forums is "in someone's opinion".

fair enough... my point i guess is more along these lines : i acknowledged your reply because you took time to write it... however, i cannot really discuss any of it since we are at complete polar opposites... see, I do think that Patrick Chan is more than just a skating skills specialist. He was was a great jumper in his prime, nobody could match him.. and even in 2017 worlds SP, he deserved higher scores, even if he only showed up with one quad. He pushed the sport in both areas of skating, technically and artistically. We have discussed a few times, and every time, we couldn't have a productive conversation because we don't agree on that and other things, and I am not there to convince you nor to preach.... so that was the point of my post... let's agree to disagree... and if I acknowledge your thoughtful answer, I cannot really discuss things in depth with you, since we just plainly have different tastes... that's all I was saying.. it wasn't anything else than that. Simple courtesy.

asiacheetah · Jun 12, 2018

yume said:
I've basically never seen a pretty popped jump. I mean, it's clear that it's not the intended jump and skater stop abruptly the rotation. I don't see how it can be nice.
A neutral 0 GOE would be appropriate i think.

Keiji's popped 3A at the 2018 WC looked so nice I didn't realize he popped it until his low scores came in.

As to pretty popped jumps with positive GOE, look no further than the king of pops himself Yuzuru. I believe his popped single Axel got positive GOE. Just had to laugh about that since sometimes his Yolo Triple Axels didn't get positive GOE.

eaglehelang · Jun 12, 2018

Old Cat Lady;2115256 You actually looked at the protocols at the time? When I say "casual viewer" I mean those people who watch skating because they turned on the TV and it happened to be on not people who actually try to learn about the sport. But yeah said:
Coming from a non skating, No winter country - yes, casual viewers did view Yuzuru's 4T failed combo as a rather serious mistake. Because he squat down upon landing the 2nd 4T. Casual viewers dont know abt the +1L +3S planned combo and REP reduced pts. They saw it as the skater almost sat down on the ice, didnt land standing on 1 foot.

Watching Yuzuru's earlier 4S,4T landing, they know what a good landing looks like, even if they didnt watch the other skaters.

The other mistake - 3 Ltz shaky landing , was also very obvious. The tilt in the air, Yuzuru almost falling cannot be missed.

Of course casual viewers wouldnt have known abt one of spins downgraded to level 3. And how the +1L+3S was added to 3A impromptu.

Casual viewers would have missed Javier's popped 2nd 4S or Vincent Zhou"s underrotated quads at WC 2018 but not obvious near falls

asiacheetah · Jun 12, 2018

karakaka said:
Looked at it way after, when I was starting to get more invested and wanted to learn the scoring system. But yeah, it could be baffling to an extremely casual viewer.

Generally I don't think a fall or pop should be negatively reflect in SS or TR, but for me, it does negatively affect the overall performance. So I don't think a program with those errors should be considered a "10" in performance. But idek if a pop is considered a serious error. :confused2:

I think a pop or fall is punished accordingly in the jump GOEs. It should minimally impact TR if there are meant to be transitions out of the jump that (in a fall) obviously is no longer there. SS doesn't really get impacted by whether a skater popped or fell on a jump so I don't think it should be reduced. Choreo, Interpretation are completely separate and has to do with the composition of the program itself so I don't think they should be negatively impacted by a fall/pop. The one area that should obviously be impacted is performance, BUT only if the skater's level of performance is reduced in any way by a fall/pop.

In the instance of Yuzu's 2017 WC SP, he didn't fall, it was more like a pause between jumps in a combo. He was punished accordingly with his 3T not being factored in to the BV and reduced GOE. Since he didn't fall, he did the same amount of transition out of his jump. As stated before SS, CH, IN shouldn't be impacted by the fall/pop. Now performance, Yuzuru didn't act like anything was wrong. I really do think casual viewers (and I mean casual, not those of us who had his LGC program memorized) wouldn't have known there was a mistake at all. In fact, I thought that was the strongest LGC performance he ever gave. He flirted with the audience, dominated the arena. It was glorious.

For a LGC that was really impacted by pops and falls, look no further than 2017 WTT. I saw that in person and....he tried not to, but he skated that program ANGRY. And when it was over, I'm 100% sure he cursed. In that instance, I think it's totally fair to give him lower PE scores (I think he did receive lower ones, but the scoring in that competition was crazy).

asiacheetah · Jun 12, 2018

eaglehelang said:
Coming from a non skating, No winter country - yes, casual viewers did view Yuzuru's 4T failed combo as a rather serious mistake. Because he squat down upon landing the 2nd 4T. Casual viewers dont know abt the +1L +3S planned combo and REP reduced pts. They saw it as the skater almost sat down on the ice, didnt land standing on 1 foot.

Watching Yuzuru's earlier 4S,4T landing, they know what a good landing looks like, even if they didnt watch the other skaters.

The other mistake - 3 Ltz shaky landing , was also very obvious. The tilt in the air, Yuzuru almost falling cannot be missed.

Of course casual viewers wouldnt have known abt one of spins downgraded to level 3. And how the +1L+3S was added to 3A impromptu.

Casual viewers would have missed Javier's popped 2nd 4S or Vincent Zhou"s underrotated quads at WC 2018 but not obvious near falls

I think you are talking two different program. Old Cat lady was talking about 2017 WC SP. It sounds like you're talking about both 2017 WC and 2018 Olympics. I don't recall a Ltz in his 2017 WC SP. In fact, there ARE no lutz so you have to be talking about Olympics.

Edit: actually you are only talking about Olympics. 2017 WC Yuzuru touched down his back foot, not almost falling down on his 4S 3T combo

yume · Jun 12, 2018

asiacheetah said:
Keiji's popped 3A at the 2018 WC looked so nice I didn't realize he popped it until his low scores came in.

As to pretty popped jumps with positive GOE, look no further than the king of pops himself Yuzuru. I believe his popped single Axel got positive GOE. Just had to laugh about that since sometimes his Yolo Triple Axels didn't get positive GOE.

Laughable indeed. How can judges find his single axel nicer than his yolo 3A?
Though i agree that some pops can seem pretty (mostly quads turned into triples), i think that most of the time pops and planned doubles don't look the same (to respond to gkelly). You can see the difference in the air position, how the skater stop the rotation in the air (that kind of split), sometimes the flow out jump, etc.

xeyra · Jun 12, 2018

My favorite gorgeous popped quad is Patrick's 4T into 3T. That thing is a beauty no matter the number of rotations.

yoloaxel · Jun 12, 2018

Am I the only one who prefers falls to pops? Pops feel like giving up to me :scratch2:

xeyra · Jun 12, 2018

yoloaxel said:
Am I the only one who prefers falls to pops? Pops feel like giving up to me

I wouldn't consider them giving up per se. Most pops happen because of a bad takeoff that didn't allow for the proper rotations and you're either forced to pop or decide to pop instead of underrotating badly and risking hurting yourself on the landing.

I agree some pops can be pretty unaesthetic, though.

yume · Jun 12, 2018

Must not be easy to go for the complete rotation everytime. And in some cases, it's better to pop than to fall. Your program can seem less catastrophic when you have 3 pops than when you have 3 falls.
Some skaters obviously prefer to go for the complete rotation. I don't remember the last time that an Eteri girl popped a jump. Though, it will surely change since falls will be more punished than pops.

yoloaxel · Jun 12, 2018

Of course popping is better than falling and injuring yourself, absolutely! But when I watch a program with 2-3 pops it just feels like not even trying to me, it's just so anti climatic.

eaglehelang · Jun 12, 2018

asiacheetah said:
I think you are talking two different program. Old Cat lady was talking about 2017 WC SP. It sounds like you're talking about both 2017 WC and 2018 Olympics. I don't recall a Ltz in his 2017 WC SP. In fact, there ARE no lutz so you have to be talking about Olympics.

Edit: actually you are only talking about Olympics. 2017 WC Yuzuru touched down his back foot, not almost falling down on his 4S 3T combo

Yes, I was talking abt Yuzuru's 2018 OG LP. Yuzuru's mistake was on the 4T +1L+3S. He didnt manage to do the combo.
And Javier's 2018 OG LP
Casual viewers usually dont watch World Championships. They only watch the Olympics once in 4 years, if they know there's a winter Olympics on.

chopinskate · Jun 12, 2018

People are hardly arguing any relevant things here with Hanyu's W17 SP performance. Disruptive glitch or not, that performance wasn't 10 worthy.

xeyra · Jun 12, 2018

chopinskate said:
People are hardly arguing any relevant things here with Hanyu's W17 SP performance. Disruptive glitch or not, that performance wasn't 10 worthy.

Now the question could be: under the new rules, would his SP be worth under a 9 in IN, CO and PE, because of the 'serious error' that cost him the combo?

chopinskate · Jun 12, 2018

xeyra said:
Now the question could be: under the new rules, would his SP be worth under a 9 in IN, CO and PE, because of the 'serious error' that cost him the combo?

I doubt the judges even know.

asiacheetah · Jun 12, 2018

chopinskate said:
People are hardly arguing any relevant things here with Hanyu's W17 SP performance. Disruptive glitch or not, that performance wasn't 10 worthy.

He...didn't?
He got one 10 for Performance for that program. Results were 9.21 to 9.57 for PCS.

Anyway, sidetracked.

asiacheetah · Jun 12, 2018

xeyra said:
Now the question could be: under the new rules, would his SP be worth under a 9 in IN, CO and PE, because of the 'serious error' that cost him the combo?

I know we're talking about the ISU changes and all, but why would a fall/pop impact IN and CO? Unless they leave parts of their choreography and interpretation, I don't see how a fall would impact it.

I think taking out choreography to fit in long jump set up is much more disruptive and should be reflected in the PCS, but we all see that's not what happens.

chopinskate · Jun 12, 2018

asiacheetah said:
He...didn't?
He got one 10 for Performance for that program. Results were 9.21 to 9.57 for PCS.

Anyway, sidetracked.

Here's what I could have been going off of:

karakaka said:
Not so sure about that. I started watching about a month or two before Worlds 2017, and I audibly gasped while watching when he botched the combo. It was a pretty obvious mistake. I wonder it this would also be considered a "serious error"? He did get a couple of 10s, I remember.

But it was a rhetorical point. People were arguing whether casual viewers would or wouldn't know what a disruptive element in the program was. I say it doesn't matter for that performance -- it was good, not great.

Baron Vladimir · Jun 12, 2018

asiacheetah said:
I know we're talking about the ISU changes and all, but why would a fall/pop impact IN and CO? Unless they leave parts of their choreography and interpretation, I don't see how a fall would impact it.

I think taking out choreography to fit in long jump set up is much more disruptive and should be reflected in the PCS, but we all see that's not what happens.

Jumps are not just rotations in the air. When skaters started to perform single jumps that was also a possible way of changing the skating foot and direction, filling out the space giving by particular ice rink etc In that sense falls and visible stumbles can impact some techical abilities which are part of SS, TR and CO. But its also impact rhythm of the skating (skating to the right music beat) judged in IN, not to say that is not giving the right picture about paricular story or charater of the programme. Maybe if fall is part of the story or stumble is a part of the character (Chaplin) - if its planned part of the programme - it can pass, but there is no other reasons to interpret something with falls and visible stumbles

Now its on the individual judges to decide how that particular moment of mistake is affectable comparing the other moments in skaters programme. Some will merrit it by duration of mistakes, some by 'clearness of mistake', some by impact on the rest of the programme, which was always the case tho. But from the pool of 9 opinion, average should give the right picture. I remember the programme with visible mistake (Papadakis/Cizeron) when after end of the programme i forgot the mistake happened, so i could possibly give 10 for that performance because my mind didn't registered the problem at all. Its a possible human mistake in cognition all judges (as a human) may be prone to..

Rescoring past competitions w/ new SOV+rules

Old Cat Lady

4everchan

asiacheetah

eaglehelang

asiacheetah

asiacheetah

yume

🍉

xeyra

Constant state

yoloaxel

xeyra

Constant state

yume

🍉

yoloaxel

eaglehelang

chopinskate

xeyra

Constant state

chopinskate

asiacheetah

asiacheetah

chopinskate

Baron Vladimir

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