How common would triples be if...? | Golden Skate

How common would triples be if...?

Arwen17

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 20, 2017
How common would double axel and triple jumps be if:
1. everyone started training at age 5 with knowledgeable coaching the entire time
2. able to afford 5-6 days a week of ice time with off-ice training (ballet, yoga, pilates, lifting weights, etc)
3. Stayed committed the entire time with no loss of passion and no family interruptions or injury interruptions
AKA the PERFECT environment has be laid out for every single skater. How many would achieve a double axel and some triples? And they don't have to be "gorgeous" triples either. They can be the lowest, ugliest triples ever.

I do think quads actually push the boundaries of what is humanely possible, and therefore even in a perfect environment, most skaters cannot do them. But is this also the case with triples? I can't help but think that in a perfect environment, most skaters would be able to do triples? That most of what stops triples from being more common is environmental variables.

What do you think?
 

ladyjane

Medalist
Joined
Jun 26, 2012
Country
Netherlands
Although I think you're right to a certain extent, I'm not so sure I think the environment you're picturing is a healthy environment for a 5-year-old or even a 6 or 7-year old, even if it might be a perfect one to nurse the development of triple jumps. Children at that age do need a bit of play too, and not just be involved in a militaristic disciplined environment, and what about schooling? If you can do a triple but not read and write, I think we have a problem.

What about late bloomers? Thinking of a nephew of mine who went for the lowest kind of secondary education, but made it to university in the end because his mental development grew along the way. It took him quite a few years longer to get there than someone who can start off at grammar school, but the end result was the same: a Master's degree. I expect this can occur with skating and jumps too - all those years in such a demanding environment while the triples won't come until the skater in question is 13 or 14, or even older. What a waste of childhood.

But yes, such an environment could be conducive to learn triples, if not quads, but maybe even those. Look at the young girls at Eteri's school (by the way: I'm not saying these girls have been in such an environment since their 5th!) who are now even doing quads.

Sorry, getting off topic. I've got nothing against starting young, but the environment you're picturing makes me feel sorry for the kids who would have to suffer under the regime. The approach should be a little bit more attuned to the needs of children. That would perhaps be wiser. And most would in the end still get the triples.
 

Seren

Wakabond Forever
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
While you would certainly have more skaters doing triples I don’t think it would suddenly make them commonplace. I have never, nor will I ever do a triple jump so take this with a grain of salt but there is more to it than that. So many skaters with great resources stall at the double axel while others with less resources reach higher jumps.

I think it’s probably more reasonable to say that with all these things most skaters could achieve doubles, I wouldn’t say triples.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Ideal would probably be to start around age 5 with an age-appropriate amount of training that increases each year so that by age 12 or so the skater would be putting in 3 or more hours of on-ice plus off-ice training 5 or 6 days a week, not starting out at that volume from age 5.

Even if the training remains fun and motivating for the skaters and money is no object in getting them to stick with it, if you started with all able-bodied children in the population you're still going to have a significant proportion who will end up with body types that, at peak fitness are naturally much taller or longer limbed or heavier boned or larger breasted, etc., than average, plus people who are average sized or smaller but are not naturally well coordinated or do not have the right natural muscle composition to be able to jump high or rotate quickly.

Good training will be able to help all these kids maximize their own potential, but for many their own maximal potential will be 2 revolutions in the air. Some of them might be able to start landing some triples at 10-11-12-13, but as their bodies finish maturing they might lose that ability. So are you asking how common would it be to land at least one triple at least once, or how common to be able to sustain a repertoire of triples into late adolescence and early adulthood?

And others might be temperamentally afraid of skating fast or jumping high and falling often. Others might enjoy it be their bodies might be naturally prone to injury to be able to keep training regularly, including potentially career-ending injuries while still working through single or double jumps.

And is the baseline population everyone in the world, or in a hypothetical city or region, including those who would prefer to give up after the first few weeks or months or years of skating lessons because they don't enjoy skating or are too frustrated at the fact that they don't have the natural athletic talent to keep up with their peers? Or only those who show promise and/or high interest as beginners?
 

Arwen17

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 20, 2017
I'm trying to boil it down to just the physical attributes. That's why I listed stuff like "they remain passionate about the sport" etc, so that nothing "mental" or "social" gets in the way.


if you started with all able-bodied children in the population you're still going to have a significant proportion who will end up with body types that, at peak fitness are naturally much taller or longer limbed or heavier boned or larger breasted, etc., than average, plus people who are average sized or smaller but are not naturally well coordinated or do not have the right natural muscle composition to be able to jump high or rotate quickly.

But how much of that "natural" muscle composition is just having the right training since age 5 etc? Even if someone isn't the "ideal" body type (aka curvier instead of a stick), I included in my OP that they don't have to have the prettiest/most-correct/highest triple, it can be the ugliest triple ever. As long as they are in SHAPE (low body fat, high muscle) from those years of training since age 5, I think they would be able to do it.
And the training can be modified to help them in whatever way they need. I wasn't suggesting there was some method out there that is perfect for the entire human race.

At the pro level, we have had many shapes of skaters, from Lucinda Ruh (5'9) all the way to super short and curvy/thick japanese skaters. They all do triples. I'm sure some of them had to work A LOT harder than others gifted with natural talent or a better body shape, but they were still able to do it. Triple axel (women) and quads is the realm that seems rather impossible for most people, even for those with the optimal body shape and training time. Because pro skaters have been trying to climb "quad mountain" for quite some time and are barely making any headway. Triples are common and required in pro levels, quads are still not common.

It would be rather interesting to see a girl 6'ft or taller doing some jumps. I think they could do it, they would just have to be mega-strong.
The only people I think would struggle to do it would be people with really bad body proportions (giantism and dwarfism etc) because they struggle with all kinds of physical activities, let alone figure skating.
 

jf12

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 8, 2016

But how much of that "natural" muscle composition is just having the right training since age 5 etc? Even if someone isn't the "ideal" body type (aka curvier instead of a stick), I included in my OP that they don't have to have the prettiest/most-correct/highest triple, it can be the ugliest triple ever. As long as they are in SHAPE (low body fat, high muscle) from those years of training since age 5, I think they would be able to do it.
And the training can be modified to help them in whatever way they need. I wasn't suggesting there was some method out there that is perfect for the entire human race.


To elaborate on what I think gkelly was saying, I think it matters a lot for jumps whether someone has mostly fast-twitch or slow twitch muscles. Fast twitch gives you better explosive, quick movements, and slow twitch gives you better endurance. Recent research shows that with training, you can only affect this ratio a relatively small amount. People with a certain ratio slow twitch muscles, no matter how much training they get, will never get triples. Potentially never doubles.

Some kids who you can tell have fast-twitch muscles, are just natural rotators - the types who are new skaters on preliminary moves and barely even skate on edges, who are overrotating their axel/doubles already. Other skaters, you see them skating for 10 years, gold medalists in MIF, who might have great strength, body type, and nice, big singles, and have trouble even keeping an axel.

If you're talking about giving theoretically infinite resources to a population of skaters who would be able to do them safely and with ease, I would say it still would be less than 5-10%. If you're talking about extensive training to try to force people who don't have the right muscle composition to be able to do these jumps, just to be able to land a couple bad ones, it might be more but I would say the injury risk would make it extremely inadvisable.
 

concorde

Medalist
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
At our rink, we have ~10 girls that have been training hard since they were 3-4. All 10 are between 11 and 13 now and the tallest is under 5 ft 3 in. All would be considered thin but only about three are super thin. Of those 10, 9 have landed a double axel and I would say 7 have a consistent 2A. The youngest is the only one without a 2A and we all expect she will get one this summer.

Of those 7 that have a consistent 2A, 6 have "landed" a triple in some form but that does not say it is pretty. Four have at least one consistent, fully rotated triple and all of those 4 can "do" other triples depending on which way the wind is blowing that day. Only 1 has 2 consistent, fully rotated triples.

There are other girls that skate at our rink but they have not been following a crazy training regiment for ~10 years. What pushes this group? The crazy training schedule, the competitive nature at the rink, and/or a combination of the two?
 

leafygreens

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
I don't think you can NOT include the mental aspect. A skater may benefit from all the training you describe from an early age, have passion, but still have fear or a mental block keeping them from a 2A or higher. Everyone is different.
 

concorde

Medalist
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
I think that those that are afraid of jumping will seek out another sport well before they hit the hurdle of the 2A.

Slow twitch vs. Fast twitch muscles. We see that with the 10 girls I mentioned above. The fast switch girls have the smaller jumps but rotate very fast. The slow twitch girls have the big jumps with the delayed rotations.

Mental issues do not come out in practice but they become obvious in competitions. Some consistently step up and do well. Others run hot vs cold and with those, they can win or come in towards the bottom of the pack.
 

VegMom

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
I think that it would be possible that we'd see more triples in the scenario the OP suggested, however I do want to point out that there are MANY little factors involved besides the ones listed. For instance, growing pains are inevitable for many kids. This can impact training. They are not technically overuse injuries but should often be treated the same as an injury. There are also growth-related conditions such as Osgood-Schlatter disease and Sinding-Larsen-Johansson syndrome, which are very common and viewed as fairly inevitable for many active kids - but they can derail training a bit just like a traditional injury.
 

VegMom

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Regarding fast and slow twitch muscle fibers...

1. We all have both types
2. Genetics plays a role in how easily we can develop more fast or slow twitch muscle fibers
3. Training also plays a role
4. It's far more complicated than just fast vs slow twitch muscle fibers
 

jf12

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Regarding fast and slow twitch muscle fibers...

1. We all have both types
2. Genetics plays a role in how easily we can develop more fast or slow twitch muscle fibers
3. Training also plays a role
4. It's far more complicated than just fast vs slow twitch muscle fibers

Ha, yes it is more complicated than either yours or my short summary. But it does matter when it comes to extreme performances in sports. Are you arguing that it doesn't matter?
 

Arwen17

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 20, 2017
To elaborate on what I think gkelly was saying, I think it matters a lot for jumps whether someone has mostly fast-twitch or slow twitch muscles. Fast twitch gives you better explosive, quick movements, and slow twitch gives you better endurance. Recent research shows that with training, you can only affect this ratio a relatively small amount. People with a certain ratio slow twitch muscles, no matter how much training they get, will never get triples. Potentially never doubles.

Some kids who you can tell have fast-twitch muscles, are just natural rotators - the types who are new skaters on preliminary moves and barely even skate on edges, who are overrotating their axel/doubles already. Other skaters, you see them skating for 10 years, gold medalists in MIF, who might have great strength, body type, and nice, big singles, and have trouble even keeping an axel.

If you're talking about giving theoretically infinite resources to a population of skaters who would be able to do them safely and with ease, I would say it still would be less than 5-10%. If you're talking about extensive training to try to force people who don't have the right muscle composition to be able to do these jumps, just to be able to land a couple bad ones, it might be more but I would say the injury risk would make it extremely inadvisable.

I just cannot see why someone with "nice, big singles" would have trouble keeping an axel. I have an easier time believing fast-twitch vs slow-twitch muscle "genes" rule your fate at 2A and above. But I can't believe that about anything below 2A if someone is in good shape, young, and has enough training under their belt. Lack of youth, lack of training, and lack of fitness (low fat, high muscle) is what stops most people from having single or double jumps (from a physical-only perspective). But I think this is true for triples as well, but to a more extreme, strict requirement: starting very young and not having any training interruptions of any serious kind. I feel like most of the girls in my rink or at Regionals don't have 2A or triples because they didn't start training seriously until they were like 11 or older, or had serious training interruptions at some point. Plenty of kids who start training earlier than 11, later quit the sport before they have time to achieve anything. Plenty who start at age 11 or later, stick with the sport, but they didn't start young enough.

Like maybe not everyone can get a triple, but 5-10% seems waaay too low if we are just looking at physical body factors and not environmental/mental/social factors.

Slow twitch vs. Fast twitch muscles. We see that with the 10 girls I mentioned above. The fast switch girls have the smaller jumps but rotate very fast. The slow twitch girls have the big jumps with the delayed rotations.

This is more what I think happens. Not everyone will have the same quality or kind of triple, but they can still get the triple.
 

jf12

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
I just cannot see why someone with "nice, big singles" would have trouble keeping an axel. I have an easier time believing fast-twitch vs slow-twitch muscle "genes" rule your fate at 2A and above. But I can't believe that about anything below 2A if someone is in good shape, young, and has enough training under their belt. Lack of youth, lack of training, and lack of fitness (low fat, high muscle) is what stops most people from having single or double jumps (from a physical-only perspective).

Like maybe not everyone can get a triple, but 5-10% seems waaay too low if we are just looking at physical body factors and not environmental/mental/social factors.

I meant that I thought that 5-10% of people could get triples safely. Training triples is really hard on your body, and very dangerous. Plenty of people for whom jumps DO come easily to get crazy injuries, and its even more likely if you go into it without a very natural aptitude for jumping and rotation (muscle composition, body awareness).

It is kind of a feedback loop, that if the jumps don't come easily and naturally to you, based on any of these trained or innate factors, it's honestly pretty logical to not kill yourself to get a crappy triple, no matter how much money and time you throw at it. I guess I'm not sure if your thought experiment was the equivalent of taking kids on a forced-triple gulag, or on the other hand making the money and time available and letting them try and possible give up. :laugh:
 

Arwen17

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 20, 2017
I guess I'm not sure if your thought experiment was the equivalent of taking kids on a forced-triple gulag, or on the other hand making the money and time available and letting them try and possible give up. :laugh:

lol russia is that you? No, I just wanted to contemplate how "impossible" triples really are. If we lived in a world where learning to figure skate was as required as normal school, what kind of results would we see? when the entire population is on board and trained correctly. It just feels like that there's so many other hurtles that are external to the physical ability to do it: funding support, training time, starting young enough, mentally/emotionally involved, lack of injuries, etc. That when someone says "you can't do triples", it's more like "you can't do triples because the 'perfect scenario' for learning triples is so rare."
I'll just conclude that those doing triples are indeed aliens from Mars no matter what age they started skating at. And those with quads are the Martian leaders of royal blood.
 

VegMom

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
From an authority on genetics, the newsletter for Genetic Literacy Project:

“Although genes circumscribe athletic possibility in all sports, training and opportunity are key for the most talented athletes to develop their genetic gifts. A range of sports require such a series of progressive skills that early training is arguably as important as innate athletic ability. Look at gymnastics, skiing, diving and figure skating–for these and some other sports that require training, facilities and advanced equipment, the learning curve is so long and the progression of skills so systematic to reach high competition levels that nurture is key. At high levels, everybody is a top “natural” athlete, but in these sports, often getting trained by a particular coach is what puts the athlete at the very top. “

The entire article is well worth a read

https://geneticliteracyproject.org/...determine-which-sports-are-best-for-our-kids/


The idea that you can look at skaters’ jumps and guess their muscle fiber composition and genetic makeup is absurd.

---
Added later:
If one were to extrapolate according to 23andMe genetic testing, the VAST majority of people have the muscle composition that allows growth of more fast twitch muscle fibers. Depending on ancestry, about 60-90% of people have the genetic markers that indicate their muscle composition is of the sort that is common in elite power athletes. About 80% of people with European or East Asian ancestry have it, about 90% of people with African ancestry have it, about 70% of people with Latino ancestry have it, and about 60% of people with South Asian ancestry have it.

It's not 50/50 and muscle composition alone cannot account for the lack of triples in figure skating. "The right type" of muscle composition is likely present in MOST skaters.

Also worth a read:
https://www.23andme.com/gen101/variation/speed/
 

concorde

Medalist
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Body characteristics do play a factor.

Look at female gymnasts. In order to be an elite athlete on the balance beam, one has to do three handsprings. If the gymnasts is over x in height, they physically run out of real estate after two on the beam. Similar issue with the uneven parallel bars. Over x in height, the gymnast has to bend when they swing down to clear the floor and that bending the body is a deduction. I don't care how great the athlete's talent or coaching is, you will not see an elite female 6 foot tall gymnast.
 

sk8chis

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 4, 2018
I feel like most of the girls in my rink or at Regionals don't have 2A or triples because they didn't start training seriously until they were like 11 or older, or had serious training interruptions at some point. Plenty of kids who start training earlier than 11, later quit the sport before they have time to achieve anything. Plenty who start at age 11 or later, stick with the sport, but they didn't start young enough.

This is more what I think happens. Not everyone will have the same quality or kind of triple, but they can still get the triple.

This is what i’ve always wondered. When people talk about being able to make it to the high-level comps they talk about starting very young. I always wondering let’s say someone is a later starter like not 3 or 4 but 9 or 10, and can follow these rigorous training scenarios, who’s to say they can’t get triples and qualify?

There are a few girls I follow on instagram and 1 is 14 and she says she is training to reach Olympics, that is if she doesn’t lose interest by then. She has all her doubles but is close to landing her 3lz, from what I’ve seen (she posts her falls). She’s only been skating for five years though. I believe she skates every day if not almost every day. She has 3 coaches as of now. And seems to be very serious.

I can’t imagine an 11 year who can train uninterrupted not be able to catch up with the relatively low percentage of skaters who started very young and continued with the sport. Or am i just naive and want everyone to reach success lol.
 
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