Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 21 to 39 of 39

Thread: Injury prevention doesn’t seem high priority

  1. #21
    GS Supporter
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    260

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by concorde View Post

    Not all helmets are created the same. I don't think the typical bike helmet is very effective is preventing I injuries where the skater falls backwards which is typically the type of bad falls I see. Maybe a ski helmet would be better but most families don't have those.
    The helmets that are recommended are those designed for use for hockey, skiing, skateboarding, scootering...
    Then as the children progress the next step is often a Crashe, Ice Halo, or RibCap padded hat/padded headband.

    The USFSA does recommend specific types of helmets for Learn to Skate and to their credit their brochures about Learn to Skate programs show many photos of kids wearing helmets. It would be good if ALL the photos of beginner skaters were in helmets. And it would be good to see young figure skaters wearing padded head protection too.
    https://www.learntoskateusa.com/

  2. #22
    GS Supporter
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,216
    Country: United States of America

    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by VegMom View Post
    The helmets that are recommended are those designed for use for hockey, skiing, skateboarding, scootering...
    Then as the children progress the next step is often a Crashe, Ice Halo, or RibCap padded hat/padded headband.

    The USFSA does recommend specific types of helmets for Learn to Skate and to their credit their brochures about Learn to Skate programs show many photos of kids wearing helmets. It would be good if ALL the photos of beginner skaters were in helmets. And it would be good to see young figure skaters wearing padded head protection too.
    https://www.learntoskateusa.com/
    I know that you are really pro helmets but I am not so except for beginner skaters.

    Most injuries on freestyle session I see are from collisions (where 1 skater gets cut from the other skater's blade) and ankle injuries from bad landings. A couple times I have seen an injury where a helmet may have been beneficial but those cases have been with higher level skaters (doubles + ), not newbies.

    Where I see a huge issue in lack of protection is in the hip / butt area. The options are extremely limited and what is offered is pretty worthless for the skaters doing the bigger jumps. Let's not forget that most skaters doing the big jumps are pretty skinny so it is not like they have alot of fat to cushion the jumps.

  3. #23
    Tripping on the Podium
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    709

    2 Not allowed!
    I actually did my masters thesis on injuries in synchronized skating, with both injury history and jumping testing. I think concussions are the silent issue, as it is in many sports.

  4. #24
    On the Ice Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    37,161
    Country: United States of America

    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    That’s why most rinks have Skate at your Risk signs and rely on recommendations.
    If you are a rink owner, ask your attorneys what the legal force is of signs that say "Skate at Your Risk" and "Management will not be responsible for ..." signs.

    Here is a spin rule that I would like to see. In a side-by-side pairs camel spin, it always looks like someone is going to get hit in the head with his/her partner's skate. Elena Berezhnaya was injured so badly in such an accident that there was a question if she would ever talk again, much less skate. Yet the ISU judging recommendations give more credit for spins that are close together than for the same spin when the partners are farther apart. There could be a rule that says pairs camel spins have to be done 20 feet apart. (Plus, it would be cool to see more innovative genuine pairs spins in hold. )

  5. #25
    All Hail Empress Eteri Spirals for Miles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    5,746
    Country: United States of America

    2 Not allowed!
    If that passed, we’d get complaints on here of things like “they were only 19 feet apart, that should’ve been invalidated!”

  6. #26
    Medalist
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,630
    Country: Canada

    0 Not allowed!
    While helmets are promoted for figure skating, I would say they are recommended for beginners, where there is no risk of bad injury. Yes, you may break wrists, mostly in old beginners, but the low speed and body position of kids, they fall without banging anything. The problem starts when speed increase and you add jumps. But even there, most injuries involve arms, legs, hips and back. Concussions happen, but are quite rare in FS. The big problem is in pairs. It was pairs that brought the scariest accidents ever in FS. Neither dance, nor single skating are very dangerous. When I use dangerous, I mean potential life altering injuries.
    And if we leave FS, what about those flying ski/snowboard competitions? Even downhill ski. That is life threatening.

  7. #27
    GS Supporter
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,216
    Country: United States of America

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
    Yes, you may break wrists, mostly in old beginners, but the low speed and body position of kids, they fall without banging anything. The problem starts when speed increase and you add jumps. But even there, most injuries involve arms, legs, hips and back.
    Agree 100%.

    Also another issue that is not talked about is the asthma that alot of high level skaters (hockey and speed too) develop from being in the cold, dry atmosphere of a skating rink. Fyi - it is also common in down hill skiers too.

  8. #28
    ~
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    3,949

    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    There could be a rule that says pairs camel spins have to be done 20 feet apart. (Plus, it would be cool to see more innovative genuine pairs spins in hold. )
    They could just remove SBS spins.

  9. #29
    in Emergency Backup Mode karne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    14,166
    Country: Australia

    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by el henry View Post

    And hey, for common ground and completely OT, the Eagles drafted an Australian rugby player, so that's right? He looks like an absolute beast, and I mean that in the absolute best way....

    Your Eagles won't know what to do with him. He's used to playing a game where he has to be both an offensive and defensive player, play almost all the game (none of this stop every twenty seconds to change teams and re-set the lines), and doing everything without pads or helmets...

  10. #30
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    256

    2 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by concorde View Post
    Agree 100%.

    Also another issue that is not talked about is the asthma that alot of high level skaters (hockey and speed too) develop from being in the cold, dry atmosphere of a skating rink. Fyi - it is also common in down hill skiers too.
    I had no idea about this, and I have asthma that’s aggravated in certain types of cold weather! Never even occurred to me.
    Sounds like the immune system suppression common in swimmers, accepted as normal amongst the swimming community but not really known of outside of it.

    This is exactly who I don’t really see how injury prevention can be a realistic aim (past a certain extent, at least) of any governing body.
    There are just too many effects caused by too many factors in whatever activity takes place.
    And the less obvious ones are really just as bad or even worse that the ones that spring to mind.
    Take swimming for example - how many people, doctors, physical therapists, will recommend it as a “safe” sport? I mean, you can’t fall out of a pool and hurt your back.
    Yet the postural changes and muscular imbalances one develops in order to swim correctly (even if not competitively) can result in such SI joint problems, neck/spine problems etc etc that someone can wind up spending their entire adult life needing medical treatments, even surgery. This from a “non impact” sport! Such a scary example of how there is no such thing as a safe sport.

    Only way to help prevent injuries would probably be a large focus on providing medical care (screenings, blood tests) and exercise physiologists, and the technology they’d need, to ensure the skater is using their body to jump, spin, move in the safest way possible FOR THEM.

    Ultimately It’s really not the job of a federation is it, though? I’m with Meghan Duhamel here with the whole “if you can safely do a quad, then you should be allowed to and rewarded” viewpoint.

    Now, those rent-a-skates at public ice rinks, THEY are another matter entirely - how they’re allowed to still even be produced is beyond me! Talk about bone breakers!!

  11. #31
    GS Supporter
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    260

    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by twirlingblades View Post
    I actually did my masters thesis on injuries in synchronized skating, with both injury history and jumping testing. I think concussions are the silent issue, as it is in many sports.
    Concussions are, by definition, unseen. So it's funny how many people say things like "I don't ever see concussions on the ice. I think the issue is XYZ"
    There are opinions and then there's science. And the science says that concussions are an issue in figure skating.

    As a skate mom, there's no way I'm going to unreasonably risk my skater's chances of having a fulfilling life after skating by ignoring the practical and reasonable advice of experts. I am raising a human, not an Olympic athlete. If he goes to the Olympics, he's STILL going to do MORE with his life than just that.

    (As a sidenote, some skate parents are raising bullies. That's a whole other issue regarding injury prevention and unseen injuries, but maybe something we should talk about too.)

    Quote Originally Posted by GrandmaCC View Post

    Ultimately It’s really not the job of a federation is it, though? I’m with Meghan Duhamel here with the whole “if you can safely do a quad, then you should be allowed to and rewarded” viewpoint.
    I understand and mostly agree. My own skater has aspirations to do a quad axel and I'm not going to try to prevent him from trying when he's ready.
    I am acutely aware of the difficulty in getting a passionate skater to stop practicing and thus to prevent overuse injury. I literally often schedule skating sessions deliberately so that he's forced off the ice by the zamboni because sometimes he just. won't. stop. jumping. So... I know it's a challenge to try to 'enforce' safety guidelines all the time.

    But I also am a pragmatic optimist and I can easily find ways that things can be improved.

    My main reason for starting this thread is that I see proposed or accepted rule changes to competitions and the justification given is about safety, but it just seems like it's lip service. It seems like they just want to change a rule for whatever reason and the 'safety issue' is a convenient and accepted rationale but isn't the REAL reason for a change.

  12. #32
    On the Ice Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    37,161
    Country: United States of America

    0 Not allowed!
    About helmets, I just noticed that there is a discussion going on in the Lutz Corner about padded headbands. Maybe that would be a step worth considering.

    https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...added-headband

  13. #33
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    256

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by VegMom View Post
    Concussions are, by definition, unseen. So it's funny how many people say things like "I don't ever see concussions on the ice. I think the issue is XYZ"
    There are opinions and then there's science. And the science says that concussions are an issue in figure skating.

    As a skate mom, there's no way I'm going to unreasonably risk my skater's chances of having a fulfilling life after skating by ignoring the practical and reasonable advice of experts. I am raising a human, not an Olympic athlete. If he goes to the Olympics, he's STILL going to do MORE with his life than just that.

    (As a sidenote, some skate parents are raising bullies. That's a whole other issue regarding injury prevention and unseen injuries, but maybe something we should talk about too.)


    I understand and mostly agree. My own skater has aspirations to do a quad axel and I'm not going to try to prevent him from trying when he's ready.
    I am acutely aware of the difficulty in getting a passionate skater to stop practicing and thus to prevent overuse injury. I literally often schedule skating sessions deliberately so that he's forced off the ice by the zamboni because sometimes he just. won't. stop. jumping. So... I know it's a challenge to try to 'enforce' safety guidelines all the time.

    But I also am a pragmatic optimist and I can easily find ways that things can be improved.

    My main reason for starting this thread is that I see proposed or accepted rule changes to competitions and the justification given is about safety, but it just seems like it's lip service. It seems like they just want to change a rule for whatever reason and the 'safety issue' is a convenient and accepted rationale but isn't the REAL reason for a change.
    Ahhh, one of those “let’s come up with a way to change things to our liking, and make it sound as though we’re being responsible instead of self serving” things...got it. My bad
    politics...how I’ve made it to adult life without recognising these things instantly makes me wonder about my mental acuity.

    Are coaches, parents, athletes all consulted when instituting these changes? Or are there athlete reps or anything? Is the athlete rep required to consult with other skaters or just elected and given the role of *voice*?

    It seems weird to me how many top skaters genuinely have no idea as to why something has been instituted, what impact it will have, so on...

    Love the Zamboni scheduling, by the way!

  14. #34
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    321

    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    But for a long time, the official explanation was not safety but rather the objection that a backflip is not a skating move because you don't land on an edge. When Surya Bonaly started landing backflips on an edge and even doing a backflip+triple Salchow combination, they had to drop that objection and just go with the injury thing.
    I thought the objection was that the takeoff isn't on an edge, not the landing. After all, jumps are differentiated by the takeoff not by the landing.

  15. #35
    Bona Fide Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,137

    1 Not allowed!
    I've been watching the seminar they were streaming this spring I guess where one of the medics presented results of his work with Savchenko- Massot, discussing this and that of the injuries and there was a part where viewers could ask the questions. One of those was related to lots of injuries top quad jumpers had during the Olympic season and what could be done to prevent that.
    The answers were: 1) they need to train their body before going into quads jumps, they need to develop their skills gradually- first your muscles are ready, then you do the jump. Also- develop the body in such a way that every muscle has the same workload. Is it possible? When most skaters actually have injuries and health issues due to the rules and technique that prevent from building muscles form both sides or your body equally? No answer to that. They don't have any methodical basis developed on the level of ISU to be taught to the coaches. Coaches learn by themselves, creating a large amount of injuried students who were not lucky enough to learn the right technique or have a coach and qualified medical assistance to prevent injuries and injuries aggravation. 2) they still can't reach the common opinion on how the boots industry should react to the change of technique and requirements that come with figure skating talent and rules development. What they actually do (coaches and skaters) is trying what boot industry provides and not vice versa. Boot industry doesn't collaborate with skaters, coaches, nobody from ISU (because they apparently have more important issues to deal with) on a large scale which could lead to creation of the boots models tat would serve certain issues and prevent injuries. And not all the skaters can afford to have their boots done on a personal order.
    At the end of the seminar some said- why on earth no one from those who set the rules in ISU come to our seminars to learn what health issue we medical staff have to deal with? It is crucial that they realize what their creativeness might cause on a short and long run. Sure sport is not a way to stay top healthy. But it shouldn't create younger invalids as well.
    It was largely disappointing for me to learn that ISU doesn't really plan to take medical issue into a serious account, wouldn't study injuries and their causes, wouldn't produce set or recommendation to the coaches, sort of how-to, wouldn't collaborate with boots and blades productions. It was sort of a sad picnic on a side of a skating rink.
    What they think they did was change of the 1.1 reward for jumps in a second part of a program and lessen the time for LP for Men and Pairs, cutting one of the elements. Shame. That is not what should be done in order to prevent the injuries. It's much more complicated that this.

  16. #36
    Tripping on the Podium
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    597
    Country: Australia

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrento View Post
    It was largely disappointing for me to learn that ISU doesn't really plan to take medical issue into a serious account, wouldn't study injuries and their causes
    To be fair, it would take millions of dollars and long-term collaboration with at least one major research hospital and university, and preferably several around the world, in order to do such a study - not to mention many, many years. The ISU simply doesn't have the money or the academic relationships necessary to fund it. The impetus for such a study could still come from them, but the money would have to come from elsewhere, and I can't think of a likely source off the top of my head.

  17. #37
    Bona Fide Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,137

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Harriet View Post
    To be fair, it would take millions of dollars and long-term collaboration with at least one major research hospital and university, and preferably several around the world, in order to do such a study - not to mention many, many years. The ISU simply doesn't have the money or the academic relationships necessary to fund it. The impetus for such a study could still come from them, but the money would have to come from elsewhere, and I can't think of a likely source off the top of my head.
    Money, right. I don't think there's no medical institution around the entire globe that is not fundamentally interested in such studies. I think ISU is just not interested in researching of the matter. There are many funds and trusts that could invest in such studies- it's just that ISU don't know how to find the investors. What they do is diminish the interest to the sport by having biased judging which they are trying to improve by change in the rules and not judges proper education and control.

  18. #38
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    214

    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Amei View Post
    I'm always reminded of this clip whenever this conversation comes up (1:45) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CILS...&t=0s&index=97
    Oh god no, I was there. I still can't watch a lasso lift without cringing. Peter Carruthers in the announcers booth with his head in his hands... Her just LYING THERE for what seemed like minutes until their coach shuffles out on the ice to get to her. Sorry, didn't mean to hijack.

  19. #39
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    214

    0 Not allowed!
    As long as the emphasis is on more, more, more quads and triple/triples, I don't think there is an emphasis on injury. Same with ugly tricks and lifts in Pairs that only have danger going for them.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •