Injury prevention doesn’t seem high priority | Golden Skate

Injury prevention doesn’t seem high priority

VegMom

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
It cut off the title. Should say doesn’t seem like a high priority

I’ve been reading about rule changes in USFSA and IJS and often one of the justifications for a rule change involves some version of “to prevent injuries.”

I think it’s disingenuous. I think the talk about injury prevention is mostly just lip service.

Let’s discuss...
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Interesting topic. Here are two that come to mind.

1. No backflips. In part, the rationale is that they don't want children trying them on their own and breaking their necks.

But for a long time, the official explanation was not safety but rather the objection that a backflip is not a skating move because you don't land on an edge. When Surya Bonaly started landing backflips on an edge and even doing a backflip+triple Salchow combination, they had to drop that objection and just go with the injury thing.

2. Various adagio pairs moves, such as Detroiters and headbangers. The safety issue is, no one wants to get their head banged on the ice. But there was also a figure skating issue. The man is not really doing any figure skating during these moves.

As for the concern that practicing too many quads will cripple you for later in life, I do think that is just lip service. Young skaters will keep on doing as many quads as their young legs can bear, forget the future. Back in the day is was the triple loop for ladies and what it did to your hip joints. Tara Lipinski's career was brought to an abrupt end at 16 from all those 3Lo-3Lo combinations. Her mother had to drag her off the ice to stop her from doing more in practice than the coach recommended.

For a parallel to other sports, it is just now becoming clear what it does to your brain when you get a concussion every day playing football. A few million-dollar law suits later, stricter concussion protocols were put in place. My opinion is that you will never stop athletes from trying to excel any way they can. The answer has to lie in more safety-conscious equipment.
 

FSLover17

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Dec 5, 2017
Another I think of is the age restriction rule and all the people who complained, for example John Nicks (coach of a victim of this rule, Sasha Cohen), that training for a World Championships was no more intense than training for a Grand Prix Final.
 

el henry

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....

For a parallel to other sports, it is just now becoming clear what it does to your brain when you get a concussion every day playing football. A few million-dollar law suits later, stricter concussion protocols were put in place. My opinion is that you will never stop athletes from trying to excel any way they can. The answer has to lie in more safety-conscious equipment.

This.

I'm not certain skating will ever attract that kind of attention, but when and if it does "Oh, it's a sport, oh, you can't stop them, oh no oh no oh no what about progressssssss" wailing will cease and desist. Because skating will enforce safety rules, much like the NFL enforces the concussion protocol (and yes, a few folks will always skirt the rules, but my team followed the protocols. And one of our LBs served as an emergency kicker. Even though that wasn't progressssssss;) )

Until then, I'll keep :bang: for what I perceive as safety. It feels so good when you stop:laugh:
 

Tanager

On the Ice
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Jun 2, 2018
As for the concern that practicing too many quads will cripple you for later in life, I do think that is just lip service. Young skaters will keep on doing as many quads as their young legs can bear, forget the future. Back in the day is was the triple loop for ladies and what it did to your hip joints. Tara Lipinski's career was brought to an abrupt end at 16 from all those 3Lo-3Lo combinations. Her mother had to drag her off the ice to stop her from doing more in practice than the coach recommended.

For a parallel to other sports, it is just now becoming clear what it does to your brain when you get a concussion every day playing football. A few million-dollar law suits later, stricter concussion protocols were put in place. My opinion is that you will never stop athletes from trying to excel any way they can. The answer has to lie in more safety-conscious equipment.

For me, the issue lies in our hyper achievement-oriented culture, with sports being a prime example of this. Too easily an athlete's sense of value and self-worth can become inseparable from their ability to compete and achieve. When that's the case, you're right - athletes will try to excel any way they can, even if they know that down the road the consequences can be devastating (permanent brain injuries in football and hockey, repeated hip and back surgeries in figure skating, heart issues from steroid usage in various sports, etc.). More safety-conscious equipment can only go so far in safeguarding against some of this (better helmets can only do so much; better skates can only do so much).

Unless our culture suddenly does a huge shift away from this hyper achievement orientation (and I don't really see that happening...), I agree with el henry; it's up to the Powers That Be (the ISU, various Feds) to have in place and (more importantly) be serious about protocols to protect skaters health and help prevent injury. Yes, some athletes and/or their teams will choose to ignore this, but fostering a serious safety-oriented mentality at the top levels (ISU, Feds) should help foster a similar mentality at the grassroots levels also.
 

gkelly

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Jul 26, 2003
I'm not certain skating will ever attract that kind of attention, but when and if it does "Oh, it's a sport, oh, you can't stop them, oh no oh no oh no what about progressssssss" wailing will cease and desist. Because skating will enforce safety rules,

What kind of rules could skating implement that would make a difference in repetitive stress injuries, which are the biggest risk? And how could they be enforced?

The problem with enforcement in skating is that often there is no higher authority to keep track of what coaches are actually asking of their students during lessons, and not even the coaches can keep track of everything skaters are doing during independent practice.

It's easy to enforce rules during competitions when there are lots of authority figures around. Not so much on every practice session at every local rink.

There can be clear guidelines as to best practices regarding amount of time per week spent training different kinds of skills, or for how to react to acute injuries especially concussions.

But if coaches or skaters and parents think they will get an advantage by training more hours, training restricted skills above the recommended/allowed limits, returning to training too soon after injury, etc., there are plenty of ways to do so without the knowledge of anyone who would be in a position to stop them.
 

karne

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This.

I'm not certain skating will ever attract that kind of attention, but when and if it does "Oh, it's a sport, oh, you can't stop them, oh no oh no oh no what about progressssssss" wailing will cease and desist. Because skating will enforce safety rules, much like the NFL enforces the concussion protocol (and yes, a few folks will always skirt the rules, but my team followed the protocols. And one of our LBs served as an emergency kicker. Even though that wasn't progressssssss;) )

Until then, I'll keep :bang: for what I perceive as safety. It feels so good when you stop:laugh:

And how are they going to enforce safety rules when it's 7am on a Saturday morning and a young skater is dropped off by mum and dad, their coach isn't there, and they surrender to the temptation to do as many of their hardest jump as they can possibly do? Or they decide that they want to emulate their hero Jason and start pulling themselves into spin positions they're not really flexible enough for?

(Super cute that you always target jumps but refuse to acknowledge the ever-more-contortionist spin positions and the greater demand for ever more difficult footwork, both of which can also be very dangerous.)
 

el henry

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And how are they going to enforce safety rules when it's 7am on a Saturday morning and a young skater is dropped off by mum and dad, their coach isn't there, and they surrender to the temptation to do as many of their hardest jump as they can possibly do? Or they decide that they want to emulate their hero Jason and start pulling themselves into spin positions they're not really flexible enough for?

(Super cute that you always target jumps but refuse to acknowledge the ever-more-contortionist spin positions and the greater demand for ever more difficult footwork, both of which can also be very dangerous.)

I actually agree about spins; they should be done very carefully and with proper training. They are more difficult to quantify than jumps, so I admit I am taking the lazy approach. Also, although I'm not a huge fan of the ladies, I absolutely despise Bielmanns and, are they called I spins, the ones where you yank your ankle up to your ear? simply for esthetic reasons, I think they're ugly.:noshake:

I'm under no illusion anyone can police practices; the NFL can't police every practice either, and players with concussions may indeed practice. But that doesn't mean it should be officially permitted. And, as I pointed out earlier, when the Eagles very early in a game had their only kicker experience concussive symptoms, they pulled him. Leaving them without a kicker for the whole game (I realize that may not mean anything without knowledge of American football, but it was a BFD). The same could happen with whatever rules skating implemented.....

And hey, for common ground and completely OT, the Eagles drafted an Australian rugby player, so that's :cool: right? He looks like an absolute beast, and I mean that in the absolute best way....

:eek:topic:
 

VegMom

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
What kind of rules? Well... I have a few ideas:

* USFSA could at the very least require helmets for Learn to Skate programs. Currently they simply "strongly recommend helmets for beginner skaters."

* Training camps could include plenty of actual education on injury prevention, not merely one discussion, but actual demonstrations, proper warmups, proper recovery etc. (The camps we've been to are scheduled so tightly that proper warmups and recoveries are virtually impossible to do. The camps are also scheduled in a way that fosters overuse injuries.) Proper warmups and recoveries are one of the absolute best things athletes can do to prevent injuries. Kids learn best through modeling - yet how to do proper warmups or recovery is rarely modeled by coaches, either in private lessons or in camps.

* They could invest in more real solid research. I know some universities are doing studies but they are few and far between.

* USFSA could get more serious about enforcing rink rules. For instance, I have been to many rinks that don't use a sash or that allow too many skaters on at a time. But as far as I know there's no way to anonymously report them to USFSA and even if there were, it's unlikely anything would be done to change things. (Whenever I bring these issues up to staff in person, I'm ignored.)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
And how are they going to enforce safety rules when it's 7am on a Saturday morning and a young skater is dropped off by mum and dad, their coach isn't there, and they surrender to the temptation to do as many of their hardest jump as they can possibly do? Or they decide that they want to emulate their hero Jason and start pulling themselves into spin positions they're not really flexible enough for?

Good point about spins. The problem of injury is obvious in the case of high-impact elements (jumps), but somewhat more subtle for spins, I think. For instance. when the CoP first came out as Michelle Kwan was nearing the end of her competing days, she tried to do the change of position spins that the new system encouraged. But she couldn't, and it hurt her back when she tried. So she dropped back to easier spins and tried (mostly unsuccessfully) to make up the difference with quality. Following el henry's maxim, "If it feels so-o-o good when you stop, STOP."

el henry said:
And, as I pointed out earlier, when the Eagles very early in a game had their only kicker experience concussive symptoms, they pulled him. Leaving them without a kicker for the whole game (I realize that may not mean anything without knowledge of American football, but it was a BFD)...

Now that they have the players under control, if they could just get the fans to stop beating each other up.

[Philadelphia Eagles fans are regarded as the most boisterous and rowdy in the NFL. ;) A bad rap, to be sure. They are not the Philadelphia Flyers hockey team fans, after all. :laugh: ]
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
What kind of rules? Well... I have a few ideas:

* USFSA could at the very least require helmets for Learn to Skate programs. Currently they simply "strongly recommend helmets for beginner skaters."

They could require it, for Learn to Skate programs that are affiliated with USFSA (not all are). Who would enforce it?

* Training camps could include plenty of actual education on injury prevention, not merely one discussion, but actual demonstrations, proper warmups, proper recovery etc. (The camps we've been to are scheduled so tightly that proper warmups and recoveries are virtually impossible to do. The camps are also scheduled in a way that fosters overuse injuries.) Proper warmups and recoveries are one of the absolute best things athletes can do to prevent injuries. Kids learn best through modeling - yet how to do proper warmups or recovery is rarely modeled by coaches, either in private lessons or in camps.

* They could invest in more real solid research. I know some universities are doing studies but they are few and far between.

Yes, these are good ideas. Get the knowledge and promulgate it as widely as possible. PSA should be involved as well.

* USFSA could get more serious about enforcing rink rules.

How?

USFSA could require specific rules for specific kinds of club sessions offered by affiliated clubs and require clubs to enforce them. There's no USFS staff to check up on them, but the club officials would accept the responsibility by virtue of their positions, rules for club sessions could be written into the rulebook, and members could report the club to headquarters if they consistently don't comply with enforcement mandates.

But only rules that could and should be universal. "Skaters whose music is playing must wear a sash" or "No more than 25 skaters and 5 coaches may be on the ice at any time" or "Two skaters may never skate in physical contact with each other or skate to the same music at the same time" are rules that might make sense for some club sessions and not for others.

If skaters are practicing on rink-run sessions, there might not be anybody present who has any authority with USFSA to enforce them.

Rinks make their own rules based on their business model and their understanding of safety risks for different kinds of sessions.

Rink staff present on any occasion are mostly not USFSA members -- maybe not even the coaches at rinks whose figure skating programs are more focused on ISI instead. The rink staff in the building during any given session may not knowledgeable about figure skating. There may not be enough staff on hand for any staff to be in the same room as the ice if they're needed

There may be coaches present, and those coaches may be USFSA members. But they will be focused on the skaters they are coaching at the time and can't be expected to keep track of what all the other skaters are practicing.

Sometimes there will be emptier sessions with few skaters and no coaches at all, or only ISI coaches. If skaters want to overtrain, skip warmups, ignore rules or recommendations, etc., they can find sessions to practice on when no is keeping track of how many sessions they skate per week or how many repetitions they do of various elements.

Instead of devoting resources to trying to police that kind of behavior, wouldn't it be more effective to do a better job of educating them about why and how to "train smart"?
 

Sam-Skwantch

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USFSA needs to be careful not to open themselves or ice rinks they operate programs in to lawsuits. If they require helmets and one kid gets on the ice without it and gets hurt it could really spell disaster. Even just for a second when the parents aren’t looking. That’s why most rinks have Skate at your Risk signs and rely on recommendations. I actually don’t mind the recommendations, I think this stuff should be handled by parents and that’s where the responsibility should lay. With the parents.

I’ve never been to a rink that doesn’t offer helmets...most free of charge.
 

Neenah16

On the Ice
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Dec 4, 2016
It is true that enforcing safety rules is not really possible but that doesn't mean we leave it because nothing can be done. The one thing that can and should be done is to spread awareness about the topic of injuries in FS. There should be research on dangers that face skaters in all ages and the results must be shared with the skaters, parents and coaches so that they can make informed decisions. Yes, some of them may ignore it but others will take the risk into consideration. Maybe it will help coaches device better training programs to minimize risks or it may push parents to be more careful and watch their children for any signs of injury (it helps if they knew what to look for).

Feds and the ISU cannot enforce rules but they can certainly make this information available and ensure that all involved parties know what can lead to injury. Other than that, it is the family's responsibility to look after their kids and the coaches second. As for adult skater, they can make their own decisions and deal with the consequences.
 

draqq

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May 10, 2010
True, the whole safety issue is a bit disingenuous when the IJS literally rewards skaters for doing more difficult jumps, spins, and footwork. And gives higher GOE for higher, riskier, faster EVERYTHING. You can even argue that lifting a lady above the head for multiple rotations and positions when one caught edge can send her to the hospital (and has multiple times in figure skating history) is as dangerous as a backflip.

The new rules don't really change much and I would argue will likely make safety tougher. The whole quad type restriction will encourage men to attempt quads of different types that they haven't tried before (loop, flip, lutz, axel). If Hanyu can get injured for half a season on one quad lutz attempt, there's no reason not to suspect many more injuries in the men's field. And that's just acute injuries, not to mention how much wear and tear is put upon a skater's body and hip joints practicing quad after quad.

Maybe the +5/-5 GOE system will make skaters elect to do triples with a higher GOE instead of quads, but then again, it's mandatory for the triple to be high, powerful, and well-landed just to be granted a +4 or +5.

I think that the lowering of the BV for all the quads will mainly have the intended "safety" effect on pairs skating. I don't think we're going to see many quad throw attempts in the future given that getting a consistent +3 or higher throw triple is worth more than attempting a quad throw.
 

VegMom

On the Ice
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Aug 25, 2017
True, the whole safety issue is a bit disingenuous when the IJS literally rewards skaters for doing more difficult jumps, spins, and footwork. And gives higher GOE for higher, riskier, faster EVERYTHING. You can even argue that lifting a lady above the head for multiple rotations and positions when one caught edge can send her to the hospital (and has multiple times in figure skating history) is as dangerous as a backflip.

The new rules don't really change much and I would argue will likely make safety tougher.

Yes, exactly. I see safety being mentioned as rationale for rule changes and sometimes it seems to line up with some logic, but often it's not very logical.

Ultimately, if they were truly concerned with safety then the sport would move a different direction.

At the very least, we'd see skaters wearing protection during competitions the way pretty much all other real sports do.

They could require it, for Learn to Skate programs that are affiliated with USFSA (not all are). Who would enforce it?

They would enforce it the same way they enforce the other aspects of USFSA affiliation. There are systems in place to enforce coach compliance to USFSA standards, those same methods could be used for rinks.

Even if it were purely 'honor code' it would still mean something to put it in print that helmets were required and not merely recommended. The paperwork for parents to complete during the Learn to Skate registration process could say 'USFSA requires helmets but assumes no liability for lack of their use. The enforcement of these rules is entirely upon the parents/guardians.' or something similar in legalease.

Point is, USFSA affiliation should mean something. There should be at least some basic standards you can count on when you visit rinks affiliated with USFSA. And some of those standards should include safety.

How?

USFSA could require specific rules for specific kinds of club sessions offered by affiliated clubs and require clubs to enforce them. There's no USFS staff to check up on them, but the club officials would accept the responsibility by virtue of their positions, rules for club sessions could be written into the rulebook, and members could report the club to headquarters if they consistently don't comply with enforcement mandates.

Well, USFSA could set up a Yelp or BBB type of online registration and review system for rinks perhaps, based purely on safety. Parents, skaters, and coaches could add or subtract to the rink's review system. Maybe they only let registered USFSA members add reviews, but the system anonymizes them. Or maybe it's open to all and not anonymous... there are many options. Perhaps if the rating gets very low after a period of time, USFSA issues a warning of sorts to remove their affiliation. It would take a little money and effort but it's not some ridiculously huge endeavour.

There are many other methods that could be used to help enforce rules or encourage people to follow them. The point is that if they actually desired to make figure skating safer, there are many things they could do to improve safety, and many ideas are practical and inexpensive. If safety were a priority then there would be more done to protect skaters.

And no one said every session has to have the same rules. They can have different rules for different sessions, just like there are different rules for public skate vs freestyle.

I’ve never been to a rink that doesn’t offer helmets...most free of charge.
I've never been to one that offers free helmets to use, at least not obviously. No signs like "ask to borrow a free helmet" or helmets visible at the rental skate counter.
 

concorde

Medalist
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
FWIW - when my skater was little, I was never worried about my skater falling but I was greatly worried about another, much larger skater running into her. I felt the public sessions were way more dangerous than any LTS class.

Not all helmets are created the same. I don't think the typical bike helmet is very effective is preventing I injuries where the skater falls backwards which is typically the type of bad falls I see. Maybe a ski helmet would be better but most families don't have those.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
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Jul 26, 2003
A rating system that allows skaters and parents to share information about which rinks maintain good safety practices appropriate to each kind of session and which allow or encourage unsafe practice would be a great idea.

It could probably be done in a way that lets rink operators know what the evolving standards are at rinks around the country so they can keep up with new thinking, learn what works and what attempted safety measures ended up having unintended negative effects, etc.

Much better than imposing rules that can't be policed -- which is especially true for individual skaters practicing outside their lesson time.
 

concorde

Medalist
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Jul 29, 2013
A rating system that allows skaters and parents to share information about which rinks maintain good safety practices appropriate to each kind of session and which allow or encourage unsafe practice would be a great idea.

It could probably be done in a way that lets rink operators know what the evolving standards are at rinks around the country so they can keep up with new thinking, learn what works and what attempted safety measures ended up having unintended negative effects, etc.

Much better than imposing rules that can't be policed -- which is especially true for individual skaters practicing outside their lesson time.

While the concept of a rating system may be nice, I am not sure who would actually use the rating system. If there is only one rink in an area and the rink's rating are low, that would turn away potential skaters. Maybe it would work if there are multiple rink in close proximity but even then, I am not convinced of it.

I would think that parents of beginner skaters will seek out a rink that is convenient. I doubt they would even know to look for this rating system.

Then you have the more experienced skaters. There the skaters typically want to be with a specific coach and the rink is more a second thought.

I know that USFS has really started to push SafeSport and many rinks have started to adopt that. I think that is worth noting here.
 

MasterB

Final Flight
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Jul 18, 2004
FASTER, HIGHER, STRONGER these are the tenets of all sports. Unfortunately the last man standing wins.

When you are young and strong you have a tremendous sense of invincibility and no matter what adults tell you you won't listen. You can put all the rules in the world place but an athelete will not follow them. There goal is to go beyond what the average human can do.

Darwin would say we are evolving, can you imagine an olympic champion winning with only a double axel (1976). Almost 50 years later and we are now entering the era of quads for the ladies alone.
 
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