Future of FS competitions?

Sam-Skwantch said:

Honestly I’m sick and tired of people trying to change the sport all the time.

If people think it’s a good idea that will attract new fans and interest from current athletes then create a new discipline or TV show and watch people flock to it. It’s so annoying seeing people train for many years to master the art form we have today and then people want to go and change that format. Something this drastic is #Ridic

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Honestly I am sick and tired of the way the sport has changed into a complete and total jumpfest.

If folks want to watch “X Games jumping” with a few transitions and steps thrown in, let them start a new sport.

Me, I prefer mastery of spins and steps and skating skills with some jumps thrown in for good measure. That is. And always has been. Figure Skating.

Definitions all depend on when you start.

el henry said:

Me, I prefer mastery of spins and steps and skating skills with some jumps thrown in for good measure. That is. And always has been. Figure Skating.

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No, no it hasn't. It has always been about bringing together all aspects and celebrating all of them. The technical and the artistic.

Mrs. P said:

2022 is four years from now. There's time to debate the concept. I don't think it's a bad thing to explore different ways to evaluate skaters. My personal viewpoint at the moment is to add an artistic program as a separate event rather than supersede the existing structure.

I like that Broadmoor had the traditional competition structure, the Peggy Fleming trophy (artistic) and the Aerial Challenge (technical). I think that's actually a pretty good approach.

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I don't know Mrs P. The aerial challenge has always been sort of a novelty competition. In my eyes, anyway.

So, fun and lighthearted, to engage audiences? Sure. A real change to the structure of the sport? Not so much onboard with that.

With the World Cup on, I'll make an analogy. Penalty shoot-outs to settle ties are wild. Love 'em. But I wouldn't want soccer to evolve to where that's all the sport is.

I hope they do something like this. The sport right now is too skewed towards tech. And artistic moves like spirals held for more than a few seconds, scratch spins, classic laybacks have basically been eliminated from competition because they have no point value. Right now, there is no difference between the short and long program other than length. The long program is no longer a "free" skate because the system demands that skaters include as many point-garnering elements as possible.

chopinskate said:

No, no it hasn't. It has always been about bringing together all aspects and celebrating all of them. The technical and the artistic.

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I was indulging in a tad of hyperbole. . But for me, the skill involved in steps and spins *is* technical.

Toller was not a revolutionary because he was spinning more times in the air, or jumping more than anyone else. To me, concentrating only on number of revolutions in air or number of jumps is “x games”.

But I don’t think I’m going to convince anyone, I just wanted to put out there that “how the sport has always been” depends on how you look at it.

saphire said:

I am not in favor of it. If they want to turn it into gymnastics then I will just stop watching again.

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It already has been turned into gymnastics, with ubiquitous Biellmanns and bendy and twirly moves. The second mark is driven mainly by the number of transitions, whether they are meaningful elements or not. There is no score for artistry. This past Olympics said it all about the sad state of ladies skating, when the OGM was awarded to a skater whose program was blatantly constructed to maximize points, with no thought to whether cramming all of the jumps into the second half was effective choreographically. Thankfully, the ISU has tried to remedy that situation, though it remains to be seen if it will result in any more artistry. I have my doubts.

el henry said:

I was indulging in a tad of hyperbole. . But for me, the skill involved in steps and spins *is* technical.

Toller was not a revolutionary because he was spinning more times in the air, or jumping more than anyone else. To me, concentrating only on number of revolutions in air or number of jumps is “x games”.

But I don’t think I’m going to convince anyone, I just wanted to put out there that “how the sport has always been” depends on how you look at it.

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But wasn't Toller regularly beat by guys with better tech and/or compulsory figures (the tech of olden days)? He was a revolutionary, but what he did was undervalued then just as it would be now. In that sense, "the sport has always been this way."

jenaj said:

This past Olympics said it all about the sad state of ladies skating, when the OGM was awarded to a skater whose program was blatantly constructed to maximize points, with no thought to whether cramming all of the jumps into the second half was effective choreographically. Thankfully, the ISU has tried to remedy that situation, though it remains to be seen if it will result in any more artistry. I have my doubts.

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I'm no Alina fan, but this is ridiculous. The second half of her LP was, I would argue, extremely effective choreographically when she was able to execute the jumps in time with the music (which she did at the Olympics). While her program was constructed to maximize points, but there was definite thought and intention in choosing music that this made sense with and choreographing it accordingly.

I'll admit I miss the golden days of 6.0, Michelle Kwan, Yagudin, artistry, etc., but I can at least understand WHY the ISU would be motivated to overvalue "tech" and undervalue "artistry" given that this is an Olympic sport and thus needs to be quantifiable in some way.

jenaj said:

It already has been turned into gymnastics, with ubiquitous Biellmanns and bendy and twirly moves. The second mark is driven mainly by the number of transitions, whether they are meaningful elements or not. There is no score for artistry. This past Olympics said it all about the sad state of ladies skating, when the OGM was awarded to a skater whose program was blatantly constructed to maximize points, with no thought to whether cramming all of the jumps into the second half was effective choreographically. Thankfully, the ISU has tried to remedy that situation, though it remains to be seen if it will result in any more artistry. I have my doubts.

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that was not the point that I was making. I don't want fs to be like gymnastics with each element a separate competition, like balance beam, vault, uneven bars, and floor exercise. I really don't want to watch competition where only thing is a jumping contest, like high jump in track and field.

andromache said:

I'm no Alina fan, but this is ridiculous. The second half of her LP was, I would argue, extremely effective choreographically when she was able to execute the jumps in time with the music (which she did at the Olympics). While her program was constructed to maximize points, but there was definite thought and intention in choosing music that this made sense with and choreographing it accordingly.

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Disagree. Even the music cuts were manipulated to go with the point-maximizing program construction and not because it was the most effective use of the music independent of the goal of cramming everything in at the end.

Sam-Skwantch said:

Honestly I’m sick and tired of people trying to change the sport all the time.

... It’s so annoying seeing people train for many years to master the art form we have today and then people want to go and change that format. Something this drastic is #Ridic

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el henry said:

… . I just wanted to put out there that “how the sport has always been” depends on how you look at it.

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Thoughts:

saphire said:

that was not the point that I was making. I don't want fs to be like gymnastics with each element a separate competition, like balance beam, vault, uneven balance beam and floor exercise. I really don't want to watch competition where only thing is a jumping contest, like high jump in track and field.

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I don't think that is what is being suggested. Under the old system, there was a technical program (the short) and the free skate, which gave more weight to the second mark. Now both programs are essentially technical. The suggestion is that one should be weighted more towards artistry and the other towards tech. Both would still have both technical and artistic elements.

jenaj said:

Disapgree. Even the music cuts were manipulated to go with the point-maximizing program construction and not because it was the most effective use of the music independent of the goal of cramming everything in at the end.

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Music cuts are manipulated all the time in skating to achieve different ends. If the end point is to make the music go with the jumps, who cares? As long as the final product makes the music fits the layout, I'm happy. The process by which it is arrived at doesn't and shouldn't matter for purposes of scoring. The second half of Alina's Don Quixote LP is exciting and goes fantastically with the music when executed well.

Colonel Green said:

3. I think this format could lead to some interesting stuff on the artistic side, but what would the “technical” programs look like? Are we talking about just doing jumps, spins, etc. without much concern for the more artistic elements? It seems like that portion of the competition would be less interesting to watch.

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It would be like this. Pro and pro-am competitions like Landover often had a "technical program" and and "artistic program." Here is a typical example of how these programs were constructed.

World Pro, 1998. Artistic program.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYwAZb14Ags

Technical program.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0bggmmcVTs

Well ... figure skating has "progressed," I suppose. Still, I cannot go along with everyone who is saying that it would be the death of figure skating if we saw performances like these in every competition.

andromache said:

Music cuts are manipulated all the time in skating to achieve different ends. If the end point is to make the music go with the jumps, who cares? As long as the final product makes the music fits the layout, I'm happy. The process by which it is arrived at doesn't and shouldn't matter for purposes of scoring. The second half of Alina's Don Quixote LP is exciting and goes fantastically with the music when executed well.

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But it could have still been exciting, with jumps executed to the beat of the music, without bunching 7 jumping passes together. And the first half of the program suffered greatly from the backloaded construction.

jenaj said:

But it could have still been exciting, with jumps executed to the beat of the music, without bunching 7 jumping passes together. And the first half of the program suffered greatly from the backloaded construction.

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But jumping 7 passes in the second half increased the point value without hurting the artistic merit of the second half. The first half of the program is another issue entirely.

I'm just saying: point-maximizing and backloading are not inherently bad.

jenaj said:

I don't think that is what is being suggested. Under the old system, there was a technical program (the short) and the free skate, which gave more weight to the second mark. Now both programs are essentially technical. The suggestion is that one should be weighted more towards artistry and the other towards tech. Both would still have both technical and artistic elements.

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maybe I misunderstood but weren't they talking about using what was done at Broadmoor as an example? I still don't like the separation. Is this supposed to make it easier for judges, why couldn't they have passed the proposal to split the judging GOE/components?

jenaj said:

But it could have still been exciting, with jumps executed to the beat of the music, without bunching 7 jumping passes together. And the first half of the program suffered greatly from the backloaded construction.

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Sacrificing artistry for technical merits should be a perfectly valid strategy.

The issue, once again, is the judges not judging properly. It'd be better to just monitor the judging rather than have to change the rules completely because you can't keep the judges in check(Very embarrassing honestly).

The problem with calling it an "artistry" competition is that the term is so nebulous. What is artistry? Is it skating skills? Transitions? If there are no jumps or spins, transitions into what? Or the other more "artistic" PCS components like choreography, presentation, interpretation? And who gets to judge that?

Calling it an "artistry" competition just makes it sound so subjective and opens it to a lot of criticism, even if it's unwarranted. Although I have a hard time believing it will be unwarranted.

I can see the ISU going the gymnastics route with a spin competition, a jump competition, and an all-around competition (what it currently is). I mean, they did already add the team event. But imagining skaters just spinning all day or jumping all day makes me cringe at how many injuries that might result in -- thinking of Lucinda Ruh's problems with micro-concussions from spinning too much. And various ankles and knees...

If the issue is wanting to give out more medals, maybe they could have a short program segment, a free skate segment, and a combined segment, and give out Olympic medals for each. That way skaters could optimize their programs differently and maybe even only skate one of the segments. And we might see a really really beautiful short program from someone who might not be technically strong enough to compete in the free skate, rather than two mediocre programs.

Shayuki said:

So the problem is, I don't see the appeal in an artistic program with nothing technical - Wouldn't it be better to just watch dance or something? And I also wouldn't be interested at all in watching technical programs with no artistry. What's interesting is the combination and how the skater's able to balance their concentration and focus between the two. Of course, tech content is easier to perform when you don't need to focus on anything else and it's easier to be artistic when you don't ever need to focus or concentrate on anything else.

My prediction is that the rantings would plummet even further, enormously. And it'd be a great shame because currently, while figure skating is quite niche and has low ratings, it still enjoys pretty special privilege with its winter olympic status and I think that that'd become seriously threatened if they were to do something this stupid.

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Same. Ice dance is, by a large margin, my least liked discipline precisely because it lacks the balance I look for between 'wow' technical content and artistry. I wouldn't enjoy divided technical and artistic programs; both would feel empty to me. Such a change would end my interest in the sport.

An artistic competition brings to my mind the old pro comps and current gala performances - two Thanks but no thanks, I'll pass events for me. I realize many others enjoy both, and would also enjoy less emphasis on certain technical elements in today's competitions, but there are also many like me who would wander away if such proposals became new rules. I'm already disappointed by the changes that somewhat devalue quads, especially for Pairs, and it will effect my enjoyment of the coming season.

All that said, I doubt this experiment is going to become the new standard and I can't see the ISU adding additional figure skating disciplines to competitions they're already looking to trim. The IOC might like the possibility of adding extra Olympic events without added additional athletes though, so there's a bit of me that dreads any sudden arrival of split technical and artistic competitions as stand alone events at future winter games; since people complain now about team medals being lesser just imagine what discussions would come from solo ice dancers and pure jumpers receiving equal medals to skaters combining artistry and jumps.

Shayuki said:

Sacrificing artistry for technical merits should be a perfectly valid strategy.

The issue, once again, is the judges not judging properly. It'd be better to just monitor the judging rather than have to change the rules completely because you can't keep the judges in check(Very embarrassing honestly).

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And I agree with this too.

It should be an acceptable strategic choice for a skater to focus on what they do best, but then the judges must award points accordingly for this to work. A skater with little interpretation but heaps of jumps, another with brilliant spins and footwork and yet another with fewer or weaker technical displays but noticeable connections with music and audiences should receive entirely different scores on various components and that just isn't happening. The system is broken at the elite level since there's little room to differentiate, everyone getting high level scores across the board since they are far above the typical club skater even in their weakest skills. Fix that rather than change too much of what makes modern figure skating both entertaining and challenging.

narcissa said:

The problem with calling it an "artistry" competition is that the term is so nebulous. What is artistry? Is it skating skills? Transitions? If there are no jumps or spins, transitions into what? Or the other more "artistic" PCS components like choreography, presentation, interpretation? And who gets to judge that?

Calling it an "artistry" competition just makes it sound so subjective and opens it to a lot of criticism, even if it's unwarranted. Although I have a hard time believing it will be unwarranted.

I can see the ISU going the gymnastics route with a spin competition, a jump competition, and an all-around competition (what it currently is). I mean, they did already add the team event. But imagining skaters just spinning all day or jumping all day just makes me cringe at how many injuries that might result in -- thinking of Lucinda Ruh's problems with micro-concussions from spinning too much. And various ankles and knees...

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Exactly. Choreography and artistic impression can't be completely separated from the technical skills required to handle transitions and the like, much of which are equally challenging, in different ways and for different skaters, as jumps.

Besides, one person's art is another's boring mess and vice versa. There's no way to quantify it in sporting terms, which is why 'artistic score', or nowadays PCS, is such a murky business that brings the drama even years later. Some folks love that about skating, the drama, but I don't. I like seeing podiums decided with minimal controversy. Too much obscurity and It's art! marking feels reality show-ish to me and I hate reality shows.

Okay. So, I‘ll just say that I‘m not in favor of this. Not at all. Because this is and always was what I loved about watching figure skating:

It‘s a sport and it‘s athletic yet it‘s also immensely artistic and beautiful to watch.

I agree that in the last years the focus has shifted too much on technique. And while I personally enjoyed Alina‘s program at the Olympics I can understand why others wouldn‘t. It‘s an intelligently constructed program to maximize the points. Yet it‘s also incredibly difficult to pull of (Worlds 2018 might be an indication on what happens when you fail even one element or are more tired than usually: everything collapses) so yes, I do think the technical side of the judging should reflect that. The PCS? Not quite. Not because the program is unbalanced (it really isn‘t. DQ is a ballett that builds up to the end, the jumps are where they need to be to match the music) but rather because Alina‘s presentation skills aren‘t there yet where her scores suggest they are.

And this is the real problem, the real reason why so many complain. Artistry and technique aren‘t judged differently. Consistency and great technique always gets you good PCS because they‘re partly based on the former. Do we need to change that? Maybe. Do we need to rework the entire system in order to achieve that? No.

I‘m probably one of the few who thinks that the current approach isn‘t totally wrong. PCS are about presentation as well. So, the ability to pull of a clean program should contribute to presentation. What is the use if you‘re an insanely artistic person but fall all over the place on your jumps? Should that get you higher PCS than a clean score by a skater that maybe isn‘t quite there yet in terms of artistry? What is more beautiful to watch? Can we even judge this?

The only problem I see is in giving PCS on reputation. I really don‘t want to use Alina as an example again because it might give the impression that I‘m hating on her or something (I‘m not) but it‘s the first thing that came to my mind. Worlds 2018. Whatever the reasons might have been, she failed. Completely. The skate unfortunately was quite a disaster. Shouldn‘t her PCS reflect this? She fell all over the ice, her smile was forced at the end (very understandably so), in short, her presentation was weak. This can happen to the very best, even to Olympic Champions, yes. Everyone can have a bad day. But should being the Olympic Champion excuse a bad skate? No, it shouldn‘t. Alina‘s PCS were too high and this happened purely on her reputation. Wakaba Higuchi, who usually isn‘t in the position to beat Alina, had one of the best skates in her life. Her FS was full of emotion, full of spirit and fire and technically perfect. Yet she gained only virtually more in PCS than Alina.

And I feel like this isn‘t quite right. We don‘t need to entirely separate technique from artistry, we only need correct judging that isn‘t primarily about reputation. And yes, this is about technique as well. Satoko‘s URs? Call them consistently. Medvedeva‘s flutz? Too. Maybe making the judging public again would put a stop to this. I never understood why it was made anonymous anyway. Doesn‘t make much sense to me in the light of what had caused this change. These are just my two cents, though and I guess it‘s a pretty long read so I‘ll excuse myself in advance. I just felt that I had to add to this topic.