Future of FS competitions?

el henry · Jul 7, 2018

I was looking through one of my old bookcases and found my 28 year old VHS tape of "Magic Memories on Ice". This is a tape of *competitive* programs, not show programs.

From the box, the description of the tape, how *competitive* skating was "sold" in 1990:

"Start with the grace, form and sheer beauty of dancing. Add the skill challenge and excitement of sport. And combine all that with the suspense tension and pressure of international competition. That’s what modern figure skating is all about.
....
The elegantly graceful John Curry, the fluid artistry of Robin Cousins, along with the showmanship of Scott Hamilton, all this capped with the 'Battle of the Brians'.
Relive the incomparable beauty of magic memories on ice."

ETA: I have left some out, but no where, not once, anywhere in any description, does it say "Thrill to the jumps of thus and such" or "Watch the X number triple program of so and so"

I'm not going to convince anyone who feels differently, but that was indeed how figure skating was marketed back in the day, why I became a fan and why I continued watching. And as far as I can tell, when we left this for the sheer boredom of jump da jump jump jump :bed:

, figure skating's popularity diminished.

Agree or disagree, but don't kid yourself as to how it's "always" been.

jenaj · Jul 7, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
Honestly I’m sick and tired of people trying to change the sport all the time.

If people think it’s a good idea that will attract new fans and interest from current athletes then create a new discipline or TV show and watch people flock to it. It’s so annoying seeing people train for many years to master the art form we have today and then people want to go and change that format. Something this drastic is #Ridic

Did you feel that way when the sport was radically changed by the implementation of the IJS?

TontoK · Jul 7, 2018

el henry said:
I was looking through one of my old bookcases and found my 28 year old VHS tape of "Magic Memories on Ice". This is a tape of *competitive* programs, not show programs.

From the box, the description of the tape, how *competitive* skating was "sold" in 1990:

"Start with the grace, form and sheer beauty of dancing. Add the skill challenge and excitement of sport. And combine all that with the suspense tension and pressure of international competition. That’s what modern figure skating is all about.
....
The elegantly graceful John Curry, the fluid artistry of Robin Cousins, along with the showmanship of Scott Hamilton, all this capped with the 'Battle of the Brians'.
Relive the incomparable beauty of magic memories on ice."

ETA: I have left some out, but no where, not once, anywhere in any description, does it say "Thrill to the jumps of thus and such" or "Watch the X number triple program of so and so"

I'm not going to convince anyone who feels differently, but that was indeed how figure skating was marketed back in the day, why I became a fan and why I continued watching. And as far as I can tell, when we left this for the sheer boredom of jump da jump jump jump, figure skating's popularity diminished.

Agree or disagree, but don't kid yourself as to how it's "always" been.

One thing is often forgotten about the glorious olden days of elegant skaters. Those elegant skaters were also on top of things technically. John Curry's magnificent Olympic Free Program included three triple jumps, which was exactly where the top tier of men's skaters were at the time.

Four years later, Robin Cousins matched the top technical skaters. Four years after that, Scott Hamilton did. Four years after that, Brian Boitano did.

Things haven't changed. The best technical skaters make up the short list of potential champions. The one among those who performs the best with the most style wins. I don't remember when a champion was way behind the curve on the technical mark (maybe Lysacek beating Plushenko... but not really, IMO).

There have always been unique and interesting artistic skaters without a competitive technical mark - and they've never won consistently. This isn't a new phenomenon.

el henry · Jul 7, 2018

TontoK said:
One thing is often forgotten about the glorious olden days of elegant skaters. Those elegant skaters were also on top of things technically. John Curry's magnificent Olympic Free Program included three triple jumps, which was exactly where the top tier of men's skaters were at the time.

Four years later, Robin Cousins matched the top technical skaters. Four years after that, Scott Hamilton did. Four years after that, Brian Boitano did.

Things haven't changed. The best technical skaters make up the short list of potential champions. The one among those who performs the best with the most style wins. I don't remember when a champion was way behind the curve on the technical mark (maybe Lysacek beating Plushenko... but not really, IMO).

There have always been unique and interesting artistic skaters without a competitive technical mark - and they've never won consistently. This isn't a new phenomenon.

I don't mind that folks say that skaters like Curry were landing what many of the other skaters were landing. Yes, John Curry landed three triples. But he didn't win because he landed three triples. He won because he skated more elegantly, more effortlessly, and more mesmerizingly than anyone out there, except of course Toller. But we won't go *there* :biggrin:

So I am afraid I cannot agree that he won *because* he had the best technical content. He did not have the equivalent of the five quad program and he did not win because he had the equivalent. No no no no:noshake: on that, my friend, we will simply need to disagree.

And nowhere does the blurb say, "thrill to the triples of John Curry"

ETA: which was actually more the original point. Of course, if five quads make ones heart go pitter patter, who am I to say it shouldn’t? I am not being sarcastic, I mean that. But has the sport, yes, a sport, always been *marketed* that way?

Not according to my VHS tape :laugh:

Sam-Skwantch · Jul 7, 2018

Tulipstar said:
Yes, this.

They can do artistry as an extra event, if they like, but this just sounds boring.

Wouldn't want to go visit competitions like that.

Sometimes I wish they would judge the gala and give medals and even create an extra event for it at WC and GPF. 100% judged on impression. Do your thing...whatever your thing is.

TontoK · Jul 7, 2018

el henry said:
I don't mind that folks say that skaters like Curry were landing what many of the other skaters were landing. Yes, John Curry landed three triples. But he didn't win because he landed three triples. He won because he skated more elegantly, more effortlessly, and more mesmerizingly than anyone out there, except of course Toller. But we won't go *there*

So I am afraid I cannot agree that he won *because* he had the best technical content. He did not have the equivalent of the five quad program and he did not win because he had the equivalent. No no no no:noshake: on that, my friend, we will simply need to disagree.

And nowhere does the blurb say, "thrill to the triples of John Curry"

Of course John Curry did not win because of his triples. That's not what I'm saying at all.

But, had John Curry NOT presented a technically competitive program, his artistry alone would not have won.... of course that can't be proven, but we see it over and over.

The technical mark gets a skater in the running for a title. Combining it with artistry and cleanliness wins championships.

Sam-Skwantch · Jul 7, 2018

jenaj said:
Did you feel that way when the sport was radically changed by the implementation of the IJS?

I was pretty young prior to IJS but there was a lot of booing at the judges in my household. We didn’t even know why we were booing though really now that I think on it :laugh:

I prefer the way things are now compared to anytime in the past. I still wish that PCS would be reduced considerably but I think the scoring is much easier to understand and is more useful for coaches and skaters than it has ever been. I’d also say skaters as a whole are much better and well rounded from the top of the field to the bottom. Not just technically either...there were a lot of great programs and performances to enjoy this last season.

I do complain at times and make suggestions to improve the judging but I have few complaints about the skating.

narcissa · Jul 7, 2018

el henry said:
Honestly I am sick and tired of the way the sport has changed into a complete and total jumpfest.

If folks want to watch “X Games jumping” with a few transitions and steps thrown in, let them start a new sport.

Me, I prefer mastery of spins and steps and skating skills with some jumps thrown in for good measure. That is. And always has been. Figure Skating.

Definitions all depend on when you start.

I...personally don't think it's turned into as much of a jump fest as you're saying. Look at who ended up on the Olympic podium. None of the top 3 were *just* jumpers (heck Hanyu and Fernandez weren't even in the top 3, technically).

Sure, there are skaters who I feel like are mostly jumps, but if they're scoring almost 92 PCS and high 2's in GOEs for their quads just because! it's a quad! then that's not a problem with the scoring system, it's 100% a problem of how it's applied. Judges putting down scores irrespective of what skaters put out on the ice could happen no matter what scoring system is used until something is done about that. But heck the ISU won't even punish judges that deliberately give 10's to performances with major errors when it states clear as day in the rules that it's not allowed.

With this change, the ISU is saying that it has no way of reigning in their judges to accurately apply the scoring system the way it's intended, and the only way to do so is to give up and completely destroy the sport. Not a good look.

Kara · Jul 7, 2018

I watched some of the jump competitions at Broadmoor Open and they were snoozefests.:noshake: An impressive jump is impressive when you're only looking at the jump itself, but the preparation time the skaters use and the kind of skating around they do for almost a minute before going in for another attempt is awful. People complain of long programs feeling like long set ups into jumps, but it's like 10 times worse in the jumping competitions.

My revolutionary input into this artistry argument is to let the audience vote.

People are allowed to vote for 1 minute as soon as a skater finishes whether they liked their performance. Skater gets bonus points to their PCS for achieving a certain percentage of likes, like 5 points for 70% like rate. :laugh:

I'm kidding of course so don't throw rocks please.:scard8:

gkelly · Jul 8, 2018

It might be fun to let audiences vote for favorites either in the freeskate or the exhibition and to award some kind of medal or trophy to the winner.

It would just need to be separate from the sporting results and everyone would be aware that it was a reward for most fan-friendly performance, not for the best technical skating. Sometimes the same performance would win both. If a top skater is really "on" they might impress everyone including judges and sport fans and artistry fans.

narcissa · Jul 8, 2018

Kara said:
I watched some of the jump competitions at Broadmoor Open and they were snoozefests.:noshake: An impressive jump is impressive when you're only looking at the jump itself, but the preparation time the skaters use and the kind of skating around they do for almost a minute before going in for another attempt is awful. People complain of long programs feeling like long set ups into jumps, but it's like 10 times worse in the jumping competitions.

My revolutionary input into this artistry argument is to let the audience vote. People are allowed to vote for 1 minute as soon as a skater finishes whether they liked their performance. Skater gets bonus points to their PCS for achieving a certain percentage of likes, like 5 points for 70% like rate. I'm kidding of course so don't throw rocks please.:scard8:

It could increase engagement :laugh:

fans getting all their friends/family/everyone on social media to "vote" for their skater, thus spreading the word etc. etc.

Shayuki · Jul 8, 2018

Oh, as an additional event(not replacing SP or FS), an Elements-program where there's nothing but technical elements performed would certainly interest me. My favorite would be if every skater had to perform the exact same step sequence - That is, the same steps and turns in the same order, with just the music and performing/artistry being different. It would be sooo interesting to see.

cohen-esque · Jul 8, 2018

Shayuki said:
Oh, as an additional event(not replacing SP or FS), an Elements-program where there's nothing but technical elements performed would certainly interest me. My favorite would be if every skater had to perform the exact same step sequence - That is, the same steps and turns in the same order, with just the music and performing/artistry being different. It would be sooo interesting to see.

Well, but then it wouldn’t be a technical only program, would it?

This proposal maybe would have value: but I’d rather see it incorporated into the SP. It’s not reasonable to expect all competing skaters (esp at all levels) to be able to meet a full Level 4 requirements, so they’d have to be simplified requirements: difficult, but not too much so, and a judging emphasis on execution (which, currently includes GOE bullets relating to musicality and energy/execution). It would be a great way of directly comparing specific technical skills between skaters.

Shayuki · Jul 8, 2018

cohen-esque said:
Well, but then it wouldn’t be a technical only program, would it?

How so? It'd only receive a level and GOE. Remember what sort of things are necessary for high GOE on step sequence, that's where the music comes in.

Also, the step sequence template would obviously be very difficult and lvl 4, but of course, the worse skaters would simply make mistakes on it and get a lower lvl and worse GOE. That's the entire point. If the base template was more difficult than what anyone's doing currently, that'd be an interesting separator.

cohen-esque · Jul 8, 2018

Shayuki said:
How so? It'd only receive a level and GOE. Remember what sort of things are necessary for high GOE on step sequence, that's where the music comes in.

Also, the step sequence template would obviously be very difficult and lvl 4, but of course, the worse skaters would simply make mistakes on it and get a lower lvl and worse GOE. That's the entire point. If the base template was more difficult than what anyone's doing currently, that'd be an interesting separator.

But this isn’t how levels work. Skaters don’t need to make mistakes to lose a level; they can just plan a level 3 deliberately, for instance. And then get a Level 3 and high GOE, perhaps even resulting in a higher score than if they did a Level 4 that they’re capable of. (Although such a thing wouldn’t necessarily be common, it’s more achievable with the new system.)

Also, the current Level 4 temp,age wouldn’t work for your idea; there’s no rule making the order of the steps and turns the same for each skater and they don’t even need to be identical outside of there order.

That their exists a GOE bullet for “matched to the musical structure” or “good energy” at all specifically displays an emphasis on utilizing technical skills in order to achieve an artistic impression. There will be, explicitly, a judging emphasis on executing something with artistic flair.

A non-artistic elements program shouldn’t need any music at all. And the steps would be judged for speed, acceleration and deceleration at specified points or within specified criteria, depth of edges and cleanliness, and other strictly technical aspects of the skating. Or it could use compulsory music, where everyone’s ability to execute the same turns and steps in time with the music and their performance ability is exactly comparable.

Shayuki · Jul 8, 2018

cohen-esque said:
But this isn’t how levels work. Skaters don’t need to make mistakes to lose a level; they can just plan a level 3 deliberately, for instance. And then get a Level 3 and high GOE, perhaps even resulting in a higher score than if they did a Level 4 that they’re capable of. (Although such a thing wouldn’t necessarily be common, it’s more achievable with the new system.)

That their exists a GOE bullet for “matched to the musical structure” or “good energy” at all specifically displays an emphasis on utilizing technical skills in order to achieve an artistic impression. There will be, explicitly, a judging emphasis on executing something with artistic flair.

A non-artistic elements program shouldn’t need any music at all. And the steps would be judged for speed, acceleration and deceleration at specified points or within specified criteria, depth of edges and cleanliness, and other strictly technical aspects of the skating. Or it could use compulsory music, where everyone’s ability to execute the same turns and steps in time with the music and their performance ability is exactly comparable.

I don't really agree, music's quite important for step sequences.

And it'd be a planned lvl 4 step sequence, with mistakes lowering the level received, obviously.

And I'm not proposing something that is completely void of any artistry at all, the artistry just wouldn't be given any PCS. As said, step sequence would only receive a level and GOE. It's not like being artistic would be forbidden, that just seems silly.

cohen-esque · Jul 8, 2018

Shayuki said:
I don't really agree, music's quite important for step sequences.

And it'd be a planned lvl 4 step sequence, with mistakes lowering the level received, obviously.

Would they be required to plan a Level 4? How would we know if they deliberately decided to omit a requirement and sacrifice a Level for the sake of doing a step sequence they can achieve easily? Again, you don’t have to make a mistake to “lose” a level, that isn’t how it works.

Why is music important, if not for artistic emphasis?

And I edited my post to add a point before seeing your response: even a planned Level 4 wouldn’t need to be in the same order or include the same steps and turns. This is the easiest to get around, obviously; just enforce a compulsory order in which to meet requirements.

EDIT: And if your strictly technical program does not actually disregard “artistry,” how would this elements only program be any different from the current SP?

Shayuki · Jul 8, 2018

cohen-esque said:
Would they be required to plan a Level 4?

No, they would just need to attempt to perform the base template, which would be lvl 4(But they don't for instance need to plan doing the upper body involvement, without which it could be a max of lvl 3). I really don't get what's so complicated. It's a simple, self-explanatory idea.

You think that a step sequence without music would be better than one with?

cohen-esque said:
EDIT: And if your strictly technical program does not actually disregard “artistry,” how would this elements only program be any different from the current SP?

It wouldn't have PCS?

cohen-esque · Jul 8, 2018

Shayuki said:
No, they would just need to attempt to perform the base template, which would be lvl 4(But they don't for instance need to plan doing the upper body motions, without which it could be a max of lvl 3). I really don't get what's so complicated. It's a simple, self-explanatory idea.

It’s complicated because you don’t seem to understand how Levels are assigned and it’s directly opposed to your own post in which you stated the following:

My favorite would be if every skater had to perform the exact same step sequence - That is, the same steps and turns in the same order,

And

Mistakes lowering the level

Shayuki · Jul 8, 2018

cohen-esque said:
It’s complicated because you don’t seem to understand how Levels are assigned and it’s directly opposed to your own post in which you stated the following:

How? The same steps and turns in the same order. What's directly opposed to what?

If you don't perform the required number of clean choctaw steps(AKA you make a mistake on them) for lvl 4, obviously you get a lower lvl than lvl 4. What's wrong?

Future of FS competitions?

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

jenaj

TontoK

Hot Tonto

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

TontoK

Hot Tonto

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

narcissa

Kara

gkelly

narcissa

Shayuki

cohen-esque

Shayuki

cohen-esque

Shayuki

cohen-esque

Shayuki

cohen-esque

Shayuki

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