Future of FS competitions?

Shayuki said:

How? The same steps and turns in the same order. What's directly opposed to what?

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The Level 4 requirements do not specify an exact order for turns and steps, or explicitly set out what turns and steps must be included (although the possibilities are incredibly constrained).

Skaters choosing to omit the balance-challenging upper body movements would not be doing the exact same step sequence as those who included them— which to me, seems to ruin the whole point behind having a compulsory sequence in the same order. They’d be doing an easier sequence that could earn them higher GOE than they may be able to get on a Level 4, and so their execution of the element would not be directly comparable to the skaters actually doing a Level 4.

There could be something like Key Points in ice dance patterns. In fact I think it’s the closest thing to what you describe. But that’s building up, not down.

If skaters can have different music, then their execution is not directly comparable, either. The timing and control needed to match the specific sequence to one piece of music may be considerably less demanding than another, and there’s nothing in the GOE or Base Value to make up for that; it only specifies the sequence should match the music.

There would have to be a strictly compulsory sequence of steps and turns (easily set out) and strict requirement for what moves needed to include upper body movements (less easily set out, but doable) and in what directions, and where to alter speed, and so on.

Henni147 said:

Same thought.

Sidenote #1: Perfect technique is a form of artistry, they belong together. Mother Nature came up with the brilliant idea to combine functionality and beauty. They don't contradict each other.

Sidenote #2: Separation won't solve the problem with biased judging in the artistic program

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Yeah I mean, what do we want to see in the non-artistic portion then? Difficult elements performed ugly? What's the point of this? It's not a technical achievement.

gkelly said:

I am not in favor of unfair judging.

What I am opposed to is fans who focus more on calling out judges whose scores don't match their own opinions.

I'm much more interested in analyzing the actual skating and discussing what kinds of scores might be appropriate for those performances based on the guidelines -- and with the recognition that performances always look different live than on video.

My default is to give everyone the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. That includes judges. I'm fascinated by the process of evaluating skating, and that's where I would prefer to steer discussions.

Yes, national bias exists, often unconsciously. Conscious manipulation does exist too. Without reading judges' minds, it's often hard to tell the difference.

We can't identify bad judging until we first have a good idea of what good judging is. But it seems that many fans prefer to skip straight to looking for wrongdoing. Sometimes I just can't stand the negativity any more and offer an alternative interpretation.

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you yourself have once posted that the question is whether one thinks the task of a judge is to judge everyone fairly or to judge their own skaters beneficially and all other skaters fairly, indicating that you think the latter is what judges should do. That is unfair and biased judging.

And if you're not against fair judging, then you're playing the devil's advocate suspiciously often.

It's subjective, it's unconcscious, she didn't place him as no-one can calculate the end placement while judging (as if semantics was the point) are your usual arguments, whenever posters call out really obvious cases of unfair judging.
I'm tired of the same excuses you bring again and again. If you don't favor unfair judging, now you know that your posts indicate otherwise. I do admire your technical knowledge of skating, but I don't agree with your philosophy.

Eclair said:

you yourself have once posted that the question is whether one thinks the task of a judge is to judge everyone fairly or to judge their own skaters beneficially and all other skaters fairly, indicating that you think the latter is what judges should do.

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When did I ever say I thought that was what judges should be doing???

At most, I might have said that is what they're doing. But I don't even believe most of them are, intentionally.

We all have unconscious biases that are influenced by where we come from, what we've experienced in the past. I do, you do, skaters do, judges do. This will have an effect on how judges score skaters that they know or feel an affinity with, for national or other reasons. But most judges make an effort to minimize their biases -- which fans (or coaches, or home country journalists) of specific skaters most certainly do not.

When judges don't make the effort, or when they make an active effort to try to manipulate the results, that is unfair and unethical.

However, except in really egregious cases it's almost impossible to know whether a judge is actively trying to manipulate results, or whether they just honestly thought the home country skater was better. Especially if other judges thought so too.

So if we see an example of a judge scoring their skater "too high" we can speculate about what the reasons might be. Cheating is one possible explanation, but there are other possible explanations as well -- which it is only fair for us to consider before jumping to accusations.

gkelly said:

When did I ever say I thought that was what judges should be doing???

At most, I might have said that is what they're doing. But I don't even believe most of them are, intentionally.

We all have unconscious biases that are influenced by where we come from, what we've experienced in the past. I do, you do, skaters do, judges do. This will have an effect on how judges score skaters that they know or feel an affinity with, for national or other reasons. But most judges make an effort to minimize their biases -- which fans (or coaches, or home country journalists) of specific skaters most certainly do not.

When judges don't make the effort, or when they make an active effort to try to manipulate the results, that is unfair and unethical.

However, except in really egregious cases it's almost impossible to know whether a judge is actively trying to manipulate results, or whether they just honestly thought the home country skater was better. Especially if other judges thought so too.

So if we see an example of a judge scoring their skater "too high" we can speculate about what the reasons might be. Cheating is one possible explanation, but there are other possible explanations as well -- which it is only fair for us to consider before jumping to accusations.

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I have no idea where that post of yours is, but it went something along the line:

what is the task of an international judge? Is it to judge everyone fairly no matter nationality or politics? Or is it to find a balance between favoring your own federation's skaters and trying to be fair to other skaters? Or is it to manipulate the scores in such a way, that your own federations skaters get the most benefit?

then you went on and maybe you remember better where that post of yours is or what exactly you wrote, but my memory tells me either you flat you said, you think it's the middle one or the intonation of what you said following that strongly indicated, that you think the middle one is what is desirable/ possible/ realistic. Leaving the strong impression that you think it's acceptable and OK, that judges favor their home skaters a little more as long as it's not totally out of proportion.

Which is a philosophy I don't agree with and call 'favoring unfair judging'. And it does also goes along with what you now posted, namely that

except in really egregious cases, it's almost impossible to know whether a judge is actively trying to manipulate the results or whether they just honestly thought the home country skater was better.

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I don't believe leaving judges so much leeway is the right way to go as it clearly leads to lots of room for cheated judging.

gkelly said:

So if we see an example of a judge scoring their skater "too high" we can speculate about what the reasons might be. Cheating is one possible explanation, but there are other possible explanations as well -- which it is only fair for us to consider before jumping to accusations.

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yes there are always possible explanations but it doesn't make sense to go the path: only if every other possible explanation is excluded, only then we can assume it's cheating. No, it's if the scores a judge gives strongly indicates cheating, then this should be discouraged early on. Only by communicating that cheating in a smaller scale or slightly favoring your home skaters is not OK, judges will understand that what they are expected to do is to judge everyone fairly, instead of slightly favoring their home skater and trying to judge the other not too unfairly.

Well there is a thread to discuss "good" judging...might be worth reviving:
https://goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?73898-The-Good-Judging-Judging-Theory-Thread

jenaj said:

Did you feel that way when the sport was radically changed by the implementation of the IJS?

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I'm not Sam, but that is an interesting question in general. Did the sport really change in any significant way with the IJS? Already under 6.0 jumps were the biggest "point getters" in the judges scores. The programs we see now are not really much different from what we saw in the past. Skaters jumped as much as they could and then filled out their performances with spins and other skating moves, while trying to present their program with grace and commitment.

Certainly the IJS has not changed the debate about "those cheatin' judges," about bias and politics, about how much to punish a flutz, about whether the first mark should have an influence on the pCS, etc.

jenaj said:

It's the most popular sport at the Winter Olympics. It's not going anywhere no matter how the scoring system is changed.

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are you sure of that?
I am not. Canada did so well this year at the games, yet a lot of the talk in the media was the poor results in hockey and curling which are our strong points too...
In Korea, the national sport is short track. In the Netherlands, it's long track speed skating. In Norway, it's all about cross country. Germans are into gliding sport (bob, luge, skeleton)... I could go on an on... the QUEEN discipline of the winter games is often referred to as : the downhill event

Figure skating used to be the darling of media because it's fit for TV... but now, with spectacular sports coming in from Xgames with simple rules and generally more accepted judging, we see less and less skating on tv... CBC was good to Canadians... we saw the competitions in integrity.. but I saw only a handful of skaters per event on other channels.

What I am saying is that if the format changes once more... and if this time, broadcaster find it duller and less spectacular, they will put more freestyle skiing and snowboarding on tv... it's all about how cool a sport looks... an artistic competition, with less jumping requirements, and more subjective judging is exactly what I personally feel would hinder the sport in terms of marketability ...but hey... it's okay, we can agree to disagree ... though I thought it would be important to clarify that figure skating is NOT the most important sport at winter games... it is for some countries, but definitely not all...

I want every competition to have what the lower-level Russian nationals and qualifiers have now: elements competition. Two chances to perform a jump combination of choice, two for solo jump, a spin, and a step sequence, both leveled. It leads to some really cool things -- like Kanysheva's and Samodelkina's 3Lz-3Lo combinations that we never would have seen otherwise.

If we absolutely must have a technical program, whatever that will mean, I want them to either reintroduce the rotating seasonal spin requirement, or require four spins of different position: an upright/layback/sideways leaning, a sit spin, a camel spin, and a combo spin.

But I’d prefer rotating spin requirements for a flying spin, a change-foot spin, and a one-foot spin between those three positions, to force skaters to show a variety of technical mastery instead of relying on their FCSp4 or FSSp4 year after year. And then additionally, a combo spin.

For a dedicated elements program I think I’d rather see them perform a set— including all those things or whatever other requirements they come up with— twice, and let them use their best of two overall results.

4everchan said:

are you sure of that?
I am not. Canada did so well this year at the games, yet a lot of the talk in the media was the poor results in hockey and curling which are our strong points too...
In Korea, the national sport is short track. In the Netherlands, it's long track speed skating. In Norway, it's all about cross country. Germans are into gliding sport (bob, luge, skeleton)... I could go on an on... the QUEEN discipline of the winter games is often referred to as : the downhill event ......

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Gotta agree with 4everchan on this. It was stated multiple times in this thread that "figure skating is the most popular sport in the Winter Olympics" but without anything to back it up. FS is not the most popular winter sport in my country, as I could tell once again when trying to watch it live on TV (hint: they showed all the speed skating and curling live, but FS was taped more often than not). I do not expect this to change unless the country produces another figure skater who can actually win medals.

As for North America -- Canada did well across the whole spectrum of winter sports despite some disappointments, but in the case of the U.S. they got half of their gold medals from snowboarding alone but none from figure skating. So in the U.S. at least, unless they produce more medal-winning figure skaters soon, I would predict snowboarding to be the bigger event (and if it isn't already, it will be). I don't have it on hand but I recall seeing somewhere that the NBC viewership data showed that the days with snowboarding had bigger audiences.

Btw, this is interesting -- it's ONLY based on one year's worth of YouTube data, but very interesting nonetheless because it gives a global perspective: http://time.com/5134554/winter-olympics-2018-favorite-sports/

Since YouTube can be watched any time you have the urge, unlike televised events in which you're at the mercy of the broadcaster, it may actually be a better indicator of what people like to see.

And if figure skating used to be the #1 sport but isn't anymore, I don't think it's because of the abandonment of 6.0. I would attribute it more to the fact that 1) other sports have caught up, 2) a certain country was unable to dominate in FS for a period of time (this always leads to more casual fans losing interest), and especially 3) X-Games type sports such as aerial skiing and snowboarding are on the menu now.

I think that to a casual viewer who doesn't really follow figure skating, the X-game aerial skiing, snowboarding would be considered cooler. Easier rules, laaarge huge jumps in the air, easy to understand and easier to get into. Especially among the young people.
Figure skating on the other hand, I did get people to look at it, just colleagues in general, what really made them take figure skating seriously were the jumps (the men's quads) and the throw jumps and throw twists from pairs.

On the issue of skating and competition format:
What is wrong with the current format? No one has said frankly, if we minimize bias among judges and have more neutral scoring, what is it about the current format that must be changed?

And for the new ones we're talking about, especially the artistic one...you know, throw in more international skaters, throw in more international judges, and watch the current bias in judging repeat itself-and go even worse. It's not solving the issue. Right now, most of these new formats are kind of a case of ISU saying "Okay we've got nationalistic biased judging, let's see how to dress it up and make it look prettier and more acceptable." Because you know, that's what that artistry competition could become if it goes international with bigger names coming in. It's not a solution, it's just trying to dress it up as something prettier.

^^ just one example...

in other sports... athletes wear... athletic gear... and look like athletes... In figure skating, wear sparkles, ruffles, feathers, wings, sequins, etc... so many of my friends who are casual fans (olympics only... and once in a while if they happen to catch it on tv) have mentioned how horrendous the costumes are, and i am not talking about some we have identified as being horrendous ourselves...

there is a gap with figure skating and the youth : the sport looks old fashioned, anchored in obsolete rules, has weird names for jumps or spins, requires basic education to understand what skaters do on the ice, and much more than that to understand how scoring works... give them figure skating or half pipe snowboard and they all prefer watching halfpipe...

Now, i am not saying that I want skaters to lose costumes and so on... however, making it more and more of a sport with less and less judging subjectivity will allow the sport to get through times... like it has... though the loss of a lot of fans, especially in the USA.... that's why I am saying that i disagree with the proposed 'artistic skating event" ... yes... if it's a separate event, added at worlds... with perhaps different skaters... or whatever... but not in place of what we have.

what I would prefer is to make the short program really about specific elements to perform with rotation every year. Less elements but mandatory ones.

And then, the FP I would keep more or less the same as it is now, but for one spin i would remove levels and make it a choreo spin... and the GOE double feature could be matching the program/music and originality... we could then see spins that don't fit level requirements etc as well as others but are fun and cool to watch...

^^ the costuming isn't a major issue, no one I've chatted with on FS seems that bothered by the costuming. The glitter, feathers, glam whatever, they get that it's part and parcel of the packaging. The rules themselves aren't even that complicated to understand. There was a very good video posted of Italian uncles Max and Angelo explaining elements. That was great, it covered issues like PR and UR and correct take off etc all within 18 minutes. There is nothing saying that this could not be done, become standard practice, and quite a few series of this could help create more fans. It's also not as if FS is fully subjective- there are objective criterias that fans can learn about, like differentiating quads jumps, throw jumps, different spins etc. If we're so worried about bias, just do zoom-ins of feet or use retired skaters or use less controvesial, protocol-confirmed ones.

What I do remember from showing my colleagues clips of figure skating, is that the more they knew, the more they appreciated figure skating as a sport. It wasn't the pretty clothing etc that blew them away, but that everything when explained is so difficult, yet skaters make it all look so easy. As one workmate put it, figures skating is a balance of acrobatics and dance on ice. Without harnesses or safety gear. It is something that can be much more popular and glamorous than now.

What is alarming is that ISU pretty much scoffed at the idea of smaller feds getting more judges, dismissing it along the lines of once you have more skaters you get more judging slots. Yet at the same time, how many smaller fed skaters are we developing? Is there any effort even by the ISU to help with funding of smaller fed skaters? Not even a list of potential sponsors even? Scholarships? None?

Which is another issue about all these new-fangled competition formats with more winners and more prizes. Look, skaters barely earn enough as is through the various standard ISU competitions. How exactly does ISU plan to fund the additional prizes without reducing the amount handed out individually per competition?

Xen said:

Yet at the same time, how many smaller fed skaters are we developing? Is there any effort even by the ISU to help with funding of smaller fed skaters? Not even a list of potential sponsors even? Scholarships? None?

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I'd have to do more research to see what specific programs are available to support smaller federations. More with training than pouring in money.

As to the effect (mostly supported by the volunteer work of the new federations undoubtedly), I did the following count:

In 1991 (after Germany was reunited but before USSR, Czechoslovakia, and Yugoslavia broke up), there were 20 federations represented in at least one discipline at the European Figure Skating Championships. In 2018, there were 16 additional federations represented: most from the breakup of the countries mentioned above, some new ones, one or two who had existed in 1991 but didn't send figure skaters to Euros that year.

In 1999 (first year it existed), there were 12 federations represented at Four Continents. In 2018 there were an additional 4 at Four Continents, plus North Korea and Brazil at the Olympics.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DhoDLJwV4AEm3mi.jpg

Xen said:

^^ the costuming isn't a major issue, no one I've chatted with on FS seems that bothered by the costuming. The glitter, feathers, glam whatever, they get that it's part and parcel of the packaging.

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Hi. We haven't met.

Xen said:

I think that to a casual viewer who doesn't really follow figure skating, the X-game aerial skiing, snowboarding would be considered cooler. Easier rules, laaarge huge jumps in the air, easy to understand and easier to get into. Especially among the young people.
Figure skating on the other hand, I did get people to look at it, just colleagues in general, what really made them take figure skating seriously were the jumps (the men's quads) and the throw jumps and throw twists from pairs.

On the issue of skating and competition format:
What is wrong with the current format? No one has said frankly, if we minimize bias among judges and have more neutral scoring, what is it about the current format that must be changed?

Click to expand...

There isn't anything dramatically wrong with it. Perhaps there should be a clearer distinction - less freedom of choice for elements in the short, total freedom in the long - just because there should be a reason, imo, to have two skates rather than one.

Xen said:

And for the new ones we're talking about, especially the artistic one...you know, throw in more international skaters, throw in more international judges, and watch the current bias in judging repeat itself-and go even worse. It's not solving the issue. Right now, most of these new formats are kind of a case of ISU saying "Okay we've got nationalistic biased judging, let's see how to dress it up and make it look prettier and more acceptable." Because you know, that's what that artistry competition could become if it goes international with bigger names coming in. It's not a solution, it's just trying to dress it up as something prettier.

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It often feels as if they've thrown up their hands and said, Well, we can't fix this bias problem and we can't police block judging or backroom deals so ... yeah, let's change something else and maybe folks won't notice.

4everchan said:

^^ just one example...

in other sports... athletes wear... athletic gear... and look like athletes... In figure skating, wear sparkles, ruffles, feathers, wings, sequins, etc... so many of my friends who are casual fans (olympics only... and once in a while if they happen to catch it on tv) have mentioned how horrendous the costumes are, and i am not talking about some we have identified as being horrendous ourselves...

there is a gap with figure skating and the youth : the sport looks old fashioned, anchored in obsolete rules, has weird names for jumps or spins, requires basic education to understand what skaters do on the ice, and much more than that to understand how scoring works... give them figure skating or half pipe snowboard and they all prefer watching halfpipe...

Now, i am not saying that I want skaters to lose costumes and so on... however, making it more and more of a sport with less and less judging subjectivity will allow the sport to get through times... like it has... though the loss of a lot of fans, especially in the USA.... that's why I am saying that i disagree with the proposed 'artistic skating event" ... yes... if it's a separate event, added at worlds... with perhaps different skaters... or whatever... but not in place of what we have.

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I'll say it then - I'd like them to lose the costumes. Yes, that's selfish since I realize a lot of skating fans are dance/theatre fans more than sports fans and adore the costumes but ...

4everchan said:

what I would prefer is to make the short program really about specific elements to perform with rotation every year. Less elements but mandatory ones.

And then, the FP I would keep more or less the same as it is now, but for one spin i would remove levels and make it a choreo spin... and the GOE double feature could be matching the program/music and originality... we could then see spins that don't fit level requirements etc as well as others but are fun and cool to watch...

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I'd support something along such lines. Two different programs measuring different qualities but not destroying the overall unity.

Xen said:

^^ the costuming isn't a major issue, no one I've chatted with on FS seems that bothered by the costuming. The glitter, feathers, glam whatever, they get that it's part and parcel of the packaging.

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The costuming is a common complaint in Canada, at least among those I've talked to, and with guys especially in other countries as well. A lot of people are turned off by sequins and ruffles. Compare how the skaters, in their dresses and bling, are outfitted compared to the snowboarders, for example. The latter are wearing fun, 'cool', youth-appealing gear folks would wear themselves. Canada went heavy in the plaid shirt look for our snow sports. The Americans had spacesuit-inspired looks. I know people don't like hearing it, but figure skating is out of step with modern culture in many parts of the world. Not to say skaters should now all wear simple costumes, like Nathan seems to favour, but those who want to shouldn't be discouraged from it. Me, I'd prefer skaters wearing team athletic gear just like most other sports do but that's a step too far for many in the skating fandom world.

I think the ISU is trying to recapture past audience levels but they're not sure how. They tried to 'modernize' by introducing lyrics and contemporary music. While it's a nice change, it hasn't solved the problem. It hasn't even been fully embraced by all the federations; there's still only a small sampling of music used and we're already getting modern warhorses. So music didn't bring in the younger crowds, hence we get shorter, faster competitions proposed.

The next straw grasping was how to bring back the heyday. Up the art? Alter the technical rules to bring them more in line with what's considered 'beautiful skating' for certain powerhouse federations with sagging viewership numbers? That's where the splitting of artistic and technical programs comes from, I think. As an added benefit, that could enable the ISU to pitch multiple medal events to the IOC - an artistic medal, a technical medal and an all-around medal without increasing the number of times skaters have to perform. I can see where the appeal lies, but I don't think it's a sound idea. It's just going to create controversy - which perhaps the ISU sees as eyeball-grabbing, like in the Tonya/Nancy fiasco - and give us overall champions people complain were unfairly crowned overall champion based on only artistic or technical merits like in the figures days.

Judge the skating fairly, set required elements for the short program, allow more freedom for skaters to gain points by doing what they individually do best (jump, spin, emote, glide, whatever) in the long and leave the rest of it alone. If skaters are allowed to evolve their sport to suit themselves and their generations, now and yet to come, it will draw fans in or it won't based on its merits.

I'm not saying that they should skate in sweatpants, but, aside from looking ridiculous most of the time, those Ice Capade getups are so dated.