Future of FS competitions? | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Future of FS competitions?

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I'd be happy to see skaters -- women as well as men -- wearing athletic-looking, practice gear-style outfits for competition.

Now that there is no requirement for women to wear skirts or restriction against men wearing tights, there's no reason individual skaters can't make those kinds of choices for competition clothing, especially when their music choice goes better with a rougher/less formal aesthetic.

Of course individual skaters may prefer to wear some bling or may believe that judges expect it and they would lose points if they took that approach. The ISU could offer some guidance to allay the latter concern but still leave the clothing choices up to the skaters.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I believe that Scott Hamilton was among the first to rebel against men wearing sequins and feathers. He went with a speed skating-inspired athletic look.

https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/5a8328ae2000003900eaec01.jpeg?ops=scalefit_600_noupscale

Before that, it was slacks and a sweater or the tuxedo-dinner jacket look. (Dick Button)

https://www.sciencesource.com/Doc/SCS/Media/TR1_WATERMARKED/8/e/5/d/SS291728.jpg?d63641124669

I think that Michelle Kwan was the first lady to compete in a sleeveless dress.

http://www.geocities.ws/marvelousmkwan/photos/lyra/olympic4.jpg
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
I'm not Sam, but that is an interesting question in general. Did the sport really change in any significant way with the IJS? Already under 6.0 jumps were the biggest "point getters" in the judges scores. The programs we see now are not really much different from what we saw in the past. Skaters jumped as much as they could and then filled out their performances with spins and other skating moves, while trying to present their program with grace and commitment.

Certainly the IJS has not changed the debate about "those cheatin' judges," about bias and politics, about how much to punish a flutz, about whether the first mark should have an influence on the pCS, etc.

I think it has changed a lot, especially with the ladies. No more beautiful, held-out spirals, classic laybacks, scratch spins, Ina Bauers or spread eagles done for artistic reasons rather than as point-getting transitions. And lots of things that I call junk moves or pure point-getters--laybacks into Biellmans every time, "multi-directional" twisting and turning, footwork all on one foot (we get the point after the first few seconds ). Oh, and how could I have forgotten backloading? And 'Tanos?
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
What is about those who ignore history, doomed to repeat it, etc?

Didn’t Elvis Stojko once say in order to have “masculine” guys watch figure skating, they needed to “butch it up”? Wasn’t there a USFS or Canadian Fed president waaaaaay back in the day who said, oh we need more manly skaters, less costumed skaters?

You know why we don’t do the old “highlight the sporting manly arts, downplay the costumes, accen-tu-ate athleticism” with figure skating? Because...

It’s been done.
It doesn’t work.

Now, Eagles fans are a special breed, as @Mathman has pointed out. But I have tried with friends and family who love football (and even hockey) but could care less about skating. Look at Nathan Chen, I said, in the running for gold, I said, look at all the incredible skill and force and stamina needed to throw yourself in the air, I said, and he wears black for good measure, I said.

Cousin Richie looked at me and said, “Girl, someone put loco weed in your onion dip?”:unsure: And then we went back to talking about why Nelly Agholor couldn’t catch a hand delivered Fed Ex package last year and this year was one of the go-to receivers....

If everyone thinks trying to emphasize ye olde sports aspect will work on the 86th try, have at it. Me, I just can’t see it:confused2:
 

Tanager

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 2, 2018
Most sports have a clear identity; a clear purpose.

Hockey: Get the puck into the opposing net. The team with the most pucks in the net wins.
Football: Get the football into the opposing end zone. The team that does this the most wins.
Tennis: Get the ball over the net and within the lines. The person who does this the most wins.
Speed Skating: Skate laps as fast as you can. The person who does this the fastest wins.

Other sports can market and sell themselves with these clear identities/purposes as their foundation. They know what they're about and can build from that.

Figure skating doesn't have a clear identity or purpose. There's little to build on in marketing and selling figure skating because there's no real foundation of what it even is. Is it art or is it sport? Should PCS matter more or TES? Do we emphasise the beauty or the tech skill?

Until figure skating can commit to an identity - a clear and wholehearted commitment to whatever balance between art and tech - it will continue to be a tough sell to the broader public. How can we effectively sell something when we're not entirely clear what that something even is?
 

Xen

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Hi. We haven't met.

Hi TontoK. I meant this in the vein of casual coworkers I've shown FS to. There are costumes that make you cringe in general, but it's not necessarily due to the glitter, feathers, ruffles, sequins. What I'm trying to get with this is- at least among my coworkers, they don't view figure skating as a soft, delicate, feminine sport. Once they get a good view of the throw jumps, the throw twists, the crazy spins of the ladies, the quad jumps of the men, they do not for a second believe figure skating to be a light, easy, "soft" thing that is art only.

The issue of identity for figure skating is an odd one. Figure skating marries artistry/musicality with athleticism/technical mastery. Without the latter, you are constrained in the former. If we must view everything in the traditional "masculine" and "feminine" poles, then the technical/athleticism is the masculine end, while the artistry and such is on the traditional feminine end. So figure skating, having to balance both, is akin to walking in the middle of the road, with incoming traffic both ways, and being potentially hit by cars coming either way. >_<

So if figure skating is viewed as overly feminine, it's not really figure skating itself or the skaters at fault. Rather, as my original post wanted to point out, the issue is that the athletic side is not conveyed enough by commentators. And frankly I'm not sure why. =/ I mean, if I can get 10 or so male coworkers to look past the spirals, the glitter, feathers and glam and appreciate the difficult athletic side of figure skating so they're screaming "OMFG, what is that?! Omg, that's so hard! OMG that's so dangerous!" shaking their head in appreciation within 15 mins, what's stopping FS community?
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
^^ for the records... my friends couldn't care less about gender or orientation... we are a whole bunch of gays : yet they hate the costuming.. "it is tacky and 1990s" is what i hear from them the most... "give them high performance gear".... is what i hear from others...
 

Kara

Final Flight
Joined
Jun 13, 2017
While some might be turned off by the frills, you also have people getting interested because of them. It gives more potential topics other than shoddy judging for people to talk about. Getting attention through trending tags on social media platforms and easy accessibility is almost a must for any show to be successful with a younger crowd. People want to talk about the things they like and find people to talk about it with them. Costumes are things like jumps that are easy for non-viewers to see and understand and get interested in. There is a twitter account comparing Shoma in his various costumes, even some of the tragic ones, to birds and a post by a different user giving attention to it has gotten tens of thousands of retweets/likes which then caught the attention of the Japanese media.

I'd be interested in seeing a competition format with elimination brackets with only short programs. You start off with 16 skaters with 2 skaters each facing off against each other. Both are given a set piece of music or a couple of songs from the same composer or movie/game/musical (no warhorses) and they have to get choreography and have a skate off. Judges choose which was better and that skater advances into top 8. Top 8 then keeps that program and face off with only 4 advancing. Rinse and repeat till you have only one remaining. This sounded better in my head, but I basically want to see a competition with elimination brackets for fun.:p
 

Xen

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
^^ for the records... my friends couldn't care less about gender or orientation... we are a whole bunch of gays : yet they hate the costuming.. "it is tacky and 1990s" is what i hear from them the most... "give them high performance gear".... is what i hear from others...

Uh, having watched skating in the 1990's, I think most of the top skaters costuming has evolved significantly so. So long as the costume fits the theme of the program, and the music, I'm fine. If a skater were skating to a piece of music with the idea of flight as the theme, and they opt for really long ruffles etc that hang out and flutter when the skater picks up speed. So long as the skater has the skills to do it, I think that's a wonderful visual experience that I won't trade in for UA uniforms.

But I think this costuming talk is getting past the point- that is, how to ensure people can appreciate the difficulty and athletic aspects of FS, no matter what skaters wear. And that is where the real issue is, and it's not something that changing formats (artistic, technical) will really change significantly. If anything, I would say that changing the formats to be 1 artistic (without technical requirements or differentiation for technicals), and a technical that doesn't really appreciate the artistic, exacerbates the identity crisis that people mentioned. Other than just being a cover-up for the real judging issues aside....
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
Uh, having watched skating in the 1990's, I think most of the top skaters costuming has evolved significantly so. So long as the costume fits the theme of the program, and the music, I'm fine. If a skater were skating to a piece of music with the idea of flight as the theme, and they opt for really long ruffles etc that hang out and flutter when the skater picks up speed. So long as the skater has the skills to do it, I think that's a wonderful visual experience that I won't trade in for UA uniforms.

But I think this costuming talk is getting past the point- that is, how to ensure people can appreciate the difficulty and athletic aspects of FS, no matter what skaters wear. And that is where the real issue is, and it's not something that changing formats (artistic, technical) will really change significantly. If anything, I would say that changing the formats to be 1 artistic (without technical requirements or differentiation for technicals), and a technical that doesn't really appreciate the artistic, exacerbates the identity crisis that people mentioned. Other than just being a cover-up for the real judging issues aside....

well we agree on one thing... costuming is not the biggest factor.. though it does contribute... look what tennis sponsors do : they release new lines of clothing for their stars when there are big tournaments... kids who play tennis or are fans of the sports run to the store to buy the Roger or Rafa shoes or shirt...

Figure skating could get more mainstream if skaters wear athletic gear that transcends the programs and is wearable in other training/sporting events... people would go crazy and queue up to buy yuzuru's outfits... sponsors would make money, invest in publicity... sport is a big business nowadays and figure skating, mostly due to judging scandals i believe + some old fashioned traditions, is just not getting its share of the pie... how can a new sport like curling become so quickly popular in some countries??? I am guessing that the issue with figure skating, outside of extreme fans, is that it's hard to relate to the sport when there is such a culture about it that is not mainstream...

fans who don't watch often do not know who are the favourites and why thy are faves.. they don't know which jump is harder and worth more points... let alone the number of revolution in a spin... yet they get curling instantly...

people are more and more seeking personal experiences, events and sports they can relate to. Not sure we are headed in that direction. From my circle of friends, the comments I get with fans who watch it every 4 years : "we don't understand why so and so is winning or why they are dressed like this and why they are still playing moonlight sonata or chopin or whatever... we feel like there is a whole subculture and we are not initiated enough to care and develop interest... we will still watch with you at the olympics though... but we would rather watch something else.. "

maybe i need to change friends? i doubt i will :)
 

narcissa

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 1, 2014
Hmm, my gut impression says that if the skaters like what they wear, then they're the ones working hard every day and should be allowed to wear it. I know other sports have uniforms and the athletes adjust just fine but I see so many skaters excited to design and debut their costumes, that it seems to be a big part of your identity as a skater. So I want to say that if people don't want to watch because of the costumes, then I'm fine with that, but of course easier said than done if the sport is floundering as a result of lack of funding.

As for why skating is not more popular, I don't know, but I can speak for myself and say that I'm at a bit of a crossroads where I'm not sure I will follow the sport nearly as religiously after my favorite(s) retire. I started off following Yuna and Yuzuru, and I would love to see more skating like theirs but nothing I've seen so far really draws me in the same way. I like big jumps with meaningful interpretation and I like Wakaba Higuchi but she wasn't at the Olympics so I didn't watch it in person. (Not to knock on Satoko or Kaori, both of whom I also enjoy.) Also, it's hard to get attached to a skater if you have to constantly see them get underscored, almost as a protective mechanism, you know?

Another reason I can think of are all the damn warhorses (not that my faves are immune to those at all, but my favorite programs of theirs tend to be the more original ones). It's absolutely snooze-inducing to see the 10th Carmen in a row at a major competition with 20 skaters. For that reason I really enjoyed Ivett Toth's SP last season. Of course, "original" programs don't score as well so I understand why skaters don't branch out as often.

I also have to say that I hate hate hate the Pretty Princess stereotype that commentators love to shove skaters into. I only started following Gracie Gold (and liking her -- a lot!) after she became so much more "real" and less of a caricature after her disappointments. I couldn't stand her before because the media made her out to have ZERO personality. Just another platinum blonde with Hollywood looks who had all the talent, the best dresses, the best coach, the best smile... And there's nothing faster that kills my interest in a skater than obvious over-scoring and political favoritism. Rationally, I know it's not their fault, but what draws me to skaters are in a way being able to relate to them, not to be force-fed that they are so much more perfect and popular than what I can see for myself.

Just my two cents.
 

Mamamiia

Medalist
Joined
Feb 28, 2018
I prefer his costumes to be honest, whether this is allowed or not. In fact, I usually think Adam does very well with his costumes.

I think those arm movements are the best presented with bare skin where you can see his muscles and appreciate the details. Those sleeves are distractive and diminishes the effect of original choreo.
 

s1alker

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
I'm not sure how I would feel if the skaters dropped the costumes for under armour or other athletic gear you see in other sports. The costumes are a part of the total package, the theme, and the music. I think we need to accept that FS is a niche sport that will never be as popular or as wealthy as football for example.
 

Xen

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
I'm not sure how I would feel if the skaters dropped the costumes for under armour or other athletic gear you see in other sports. The costumes are a part of the total package, the theme, and the music. I think we need to accept that FS is a niche sport that will never be as popular or as wealthy as football for example.

I'm also not on-board with it, because the last thing I want to see is a giant quad lutz jump with a sticker of Toyota flashing in my face as the skater spins in the air. To music.
It is a niche sport, but it is popular enough in some countries, ie Japan for example, and popular enough in Russia, gaining traction in China. So the possibility of it being more lucrative and popular than now, even if it never reaches football level is still possible.

As for sponsors logos and such- team uniforms usually have them no? Japan team uniforms usually have Kose labels (some skaters have individual corp sponsors like Yuzu and ANA jackets), China has Yili while Li Ning usually provides uniforms. So it's not like sponsors do not get placed on skaters- they do. And then there are the open practices where quite a few skaters can wear sponsor's training clothes where applicable. Actually if you consider how photogenic a lot of today's skaters are, I'm amazed there aren't more TV commercials that use skaters.

But I would argue that the hardest thing to get into when it comes to FS is sadly, the politicking. Such as larger feds usually doing well, smaller feds skaters getting lower scores etc. There are enough unclear rules as is when it comes to more subjective criteria in the PCS, add in a healthy dosage of politicking...at least in Football it doesn't matter if you're from a smaller fed country, a goal is a goal. Curling-same deal, point is a point.

And that goes back to why I found the new format, especially for artistic, a bit of a joke-it could just make the politicking worse, not fix it. For all intents and purposes, it sounds like what the current women's discipline is like- everyone at a certain level is at roughly the same technically, rest is about presentation and how much the judges like the skater. It becomes a popularity/politicking contest. At this point, they might as well go dancing with the stars or american idol route and have fans phone in votes for their favorite skater. Which hey, if you really want to do a TV show like that, sure fine go for it. But then it is entertainment, not an olympic sport. And I'm sure at some point the ISU will talk about judging time since it would need to span several days or weeks before we could get results.
 

Neenah16

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 4, 2016
Making figure skating mainstream is exactly the way to kill it. It is a unique sport that will never appeal to many people and forcing the change will make it lose its appeal to the fans (who like it the way it is) and the skaters who chose the sport and dedicated their lives to it knowing very well how it is perceived.

IMO the problem is the marketing of the sport, not because it is hard to sell but because the media is not trying. The articles about how it is not a sport that keeps coming every Olympic season, the articles and videos focusing on costumes and even suggesting that you win if you have the prettier dress, the lack of exposure to the stars of the sport, and the worst part is the commentary. Many commentators are biased or bored, which leads to them giving the audience the wrong impressions. They prise some skaters to high heavens and put down others without giving an objective assessment (not all of course).
At the last Olympics I watched many of the winter sports for the first time ever and it was the commentators who made the experience for me. A very knowledgeable and enthusiastic commentator made me watch hours of Luge and cheer for athletes I have never heard of in a sport I have never watched before. He explained everything and was very excited about good performance as well as disappointed when someone underperformed. After that I watched figure skating and it was underwhelming. The commentators kept on making mistakes and giving personal opinions that showed clearly who they thought should win. These things do affect the experience of the audience especially if they are not fans already and know the rules and the skaters competing.

If the people who work within the sport and its fans are constantly undermining and attacking it, we can't expect casual viewers to be interested. We are the ones who should be selling it and helping it spread and gain new fans but the only things we ever do is complain and scare new fans away.
 
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