Future of FS competitions? | Page 9 | Golden Skate

Future of FS competitions?

Xen

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Making figure skating mainstream is exactly the way to kill it. It is a unique sport that will never appeal to many people and forcing the change will make it lose its appeal to the fans (who like it the way it is) and the skaters who chose the sport and dedicated their lives to it knowing very well how it is perceived.

IMO the problem is the marketing of the sport, not because it is hard to sell but because the media is not trying. The articles about how it is not a sport that keeps coming every Olympic season, the articles and videos focusing on costumes and even suggesting that you win if you have the prettier dress, the lack of exposure to the stars of the sport, and the worst part is the commentary. Many commentators are biased or bored, which leads to them giving the audience the wrong impressions. They prise some skaters to high heavens and put down others without giving an objective assessment (not all of course).
At the last Olympics I watched many of the winter sports for the first time ever and it was the commentators who made the experience for me. A very knowledgeable and enthusiastic commentator made me watch hours of Luge and cheer for athletes I have never heard of in a sport I have never watched before. He explained everything and was very excited about good performance as well as disappointed when someone underperformed. After that I watched figure skating and it was underwhelming. The commentators kept on making mistakes and giving personal opinions that showed clearly who they thought should win. These things do affect the experience of the audience especially if they are not fans already and know the rules and the skaters competing.

If the people who work within the sport and its fans are constantly undermining and attacking it, we can't expect casual viewers to be interested. We are the ones who should be selling it and helping it spread and gain new fans but the only things we ever do is complain and scare new fans away.

Amen to the above.
I think with good commentary, figure skating could actually gain more fans right now without having to change format, costuming or the bunch of other stuff. And if it gains just a tad bit more spotlight, maybe, just maybe it can check against politicking in judging (at some point, no fed wants to be known for it).
 

synteis

Medalist
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
Amen to the above.
I think with good commentary, figure skating could actually gain more fans right now without having to change format, costuming or the bunch of other stuff. And if it gains just a tad bit more spotlight, maybe, just maybe it can check against politicking in judging (at some point, no fed wants to be known for it).

I think that that's part of why the B.ESP guys are so good, they're deeply enthusiastic and also have some firm favourites who they get extra enthusiastic for. They don't disparage or hate on any skaters and they don't spend the whole commentary complaining. Although they occasionally acknowledge that there is backroom politicking, it's never the focus of their commentary. While they sometimes say stuff like, "I think I'd have had [x] on top", it's never 'this skater absolutely had to be on top and since they aren't, the sport's in shambles'.

While initially they struggled with knowing the jumps and don't have the experience of many other commentators, they're nonetheless some of my favourite, and certainly the ones most likely to encourage new members of the public to become fans IMO.
 
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
Amen to the above.
I think with good commentary, figure skating could actually gain more fans right now without having to change format, costuming or the bunch of other stuff. And if it gains just a tad bit more spotlight, maybe, just maybe it can check against politicking in judging (at some point, no fed wants to be known for it).

But that's assuming the feds aren't the ones who turn the commentary bad. Or nationalism.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
Making figure skating mainstream is exactly the way to kill it. It is a unique sport that will never appeal to many people and forcing the change will make it lose its appeal to the fans (who like it the way it is) and the skaters who chose the sport and dedicated their lives to it knowing very well how it is perceived.

IMO the problem is the marketing of the sport, not because it is hard to sell but because the media is not trying. The articles about how it is not a sport that keeps coming every Olympic season, the articles and videos focusing on costumes and even suggesting that you win if you have the prettier dress, the lack of exposure to the stars of the sport, and the worst part is the commentary. Many commentators are biased or bored, which leads to them giving the audience the wrong impressions. They prise some skaters to high heavens and put down others without giving an objective assessment (not all of course).
At the last Olympics I watched many of the winter sports for the first time ever and it was the commentators who made the experience for me. A very knowledgeable and enthusiastic commentator made me watch hours of Luge and cheer for athletes I have never heard of in a sport I have never watched before. He explained everything and was very excited about good performance as well as disappointed when someone underperformed. After that I watched figure skating and it was underwhelming. The commentators kept on making mistakes and giving personal opinions that showed clearly who they thought should win. These things do affect the experience of the audience especially if they are not fans already and know the rules and the skaters competing.

If the people who work within the sport and its fans are constantly undermining and attacking it, we can't expect casual viewers to be interested. We are the ones who should be selling it and helping it spread and gain new fans but the only things we ever do is complain and scare new fans away.

Is it the job of the media to sell a sport that can't sell itself? It's not just the media that focus on "the look." Read any competition thread on here, and you're likely to read fans' thoughts on dresses and hair and makeup.

Delve for a moment into the "controversy" of Nathan Chen's pared down attire for US Nationals, Olympics, Worlds. And those costumes were designed by Vera Wang, not Adidas.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
But that's assuming the feds aren't the ones who turn the commentary bad.
I think that is a fair assumption, at least in the US. The federation does not produce the broadcast, hire the commentators, or tell them what to say.

At most they produce a media guide that gives talking points about skating technique and rules, and about top skaters to watch with some human interest details.

And there has been some involvement by officials in creating the score tracker box.

But it's network producers, whose expertise is in broadcasting and often not in skating at all, who make decisions about whose programs to show, who to include human interest fluff pieces on, how much the commentators should talk before/during/after performances, what they should focus on, etc. The federation has no say in any of that.

The expert commentators may also be members of the federation -- certainly they were when they were competing, and if they were successful enough they may now be honorary members, or attend nationals as guests of the federation in years they're not commentating, etc. But they are answerable to the network, not the federation, when they are commentating.

And their personal opinions may be anti-authoritarian with officials and rules representing authority, or vocally preferring skating as it used to be or as they wish it were.


Or nationalism.

There's not much federations can do or need to do in order to affect the treatment of home country skaters in broadcasts by the national networks.

The networks are even more nationalistic than federations because that creates a good narrative to structure the broadcast storytelling around to appeal to audiences. Networks are more interested in telling stories that captivate large numbers of viewers than in representing the sport precisely. They may be behind the times in their understanding of how skating is developing or in predictions of what the key audience demographics are most likely to respond to, but their goal is to attract those audiences. And nationalism sells.
 

VegMom

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
There is a twitter account comparing Shoma in his various costumes, even some of the tragic ones, to birds and a post by a different user giving attention to it has gotten tens of thousands of retweets/likes which then caught the attention of the Japanese media.
Link please!
I love birds :)


Is it the job of the media to sell a sport that can't sell itself?
No but they do have a duty to research and report truth. The lack of research average media puts into figure skating is shameful.


As for costumes, I think that skaters should be allowed to wear plain outfits with protective gear if they want and not be penalized. I'm sure there are at least a few skaters who don't care about costumes. I'm not saying all skaters should wear uniforms; I'm saying costumes shouldn't a sport requirement.
 

Ulrica

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2018
I think the costumes are a part of what sets the sport apart from other sports, if it hadn't been for Yuzu's R&J 2 costume I would have never clicked on his Sochi FS video when I was casually looking through the Olympics videos on youtube. I also remember watching like 3 consecutive hours of Ice Dance from the 2002 Olympics on television as a child (Can't remember if it was the SD or FD, but I'm positive it was Ice Dance), did not know anything about the sport, but I was entranced by the beautiful costumes.
 

Henni147

Final Flight
Joined
May 1, 2017
Another reason I can think of are all the damn warhorses (not that my faves are immune to those at all, but my favorite programs of theirs tend to be the more original ones). It's absolutely snooze-inducing to see the 10th Carmen in a row at a major competition with 20 skaters. For that reason I really enjoyed Ivett Toth's SP last season. Of course, "original" programs don't score as well so I understand why skaters don't branch out as often.
I also have to say that I hate hate hate the Pretty Princess stereotype that commentators love to shove skaters into.
Yep, same thought :agree2:

How many billion music pieces have been composed in history?
Sure, some of them work better for figure skating programs than others, but you can't tell me that these 10-15 warhorses are the CHOSEN ONES and your only desperate option as a skater/coach/choreographer...
Warhorses are double-edged swords: they have prevailed in history, yes, but this also means, someone else has skated these programs really well and you will be compared with these skaters, no matter what you do. It's a forlorn hope to surpass Katarina Witt's Carmen for example. You can try more difficult jumps or steps, but can you do another memorable performance like that? Kudos to the skater who can. (Judges should credit skaters for taking risks... that would be a welcome change imo)

And aye: I don't like the cute-ice-princess-stereotype either. Still waiting for the 'fallen angel' and the 'good girl gone bad'.
 

s1alker

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
I think that that's part of why the B.ESP guys are so good, they're deeply enthusiastic and also have some firm favourites who they get extra enthusiastic for. They don't disparage or hate on any skaters and they don't spend the whole commentary complaining. Although they occasionally acknowledge that there is backroom politicking, it's never the focus of their commentary. While they sometimes say stuff like, "I think I'd have had [x] on top", it's never 'this skater absolutely had to be on top and since they aren't, the sport's in shambles'.

While initially they struggled with knowing the jumps and don't have the experience of many other commentators, they're nonetheless some of my favourite, and certainly the ones most likely to encourage new members of the public to become fans IMO.

Yeah I love Simon Reed and whoever they pair him with. I do find the American commentary on NBC a lot more technical. Of course they talk a lot more. But the one female commentator (I can't remember her name) who was an ex skater and judge was very detailed with not just the jumps but also the spins and how many points they are worth. Of course that mean talking throughout the entire presentation but it was very educating.
 

s1alker

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
I think the costumes are a part of what sets the sport apart from other sports, if it hadn't been for Yuzu's R&J 2 costume I would have never clicked on his Sochi FS video when I was casually looking through the Olympics videos on youtube. I also remember watching like 3 consecutive hours of Ice Dance from the 2002 Olympics on television as a child (Can't remember if it was the SD or FD, but I'm positive it was Ice Dance), did not know anything about the sport, but I was entranced by the beautiful costumes.

I agree completely. The consumes are a part of the overall theme of a program. It's more fitting to see a skater doing a Frank Sinatra program coming out with a shirt and bow tie, looking the part than in under armour or something.
 

Neenah16

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 4, 2016
Is it the job of the media to sell a sport that can't sell itself? It's not just the media that focus on "the look." Read any competition thread on here, and you're likely to read fans' thoughts on dresses and hair and makeup.

Delve for a moment into the "controversy" of Nathan Chen's pared down attire for US Nationals, Olympics, Worlds. And those costumes were designed by Vera Wang, not Adidas.

The sport is more than capable of selling itself if presented properly which is what I was criticizing. The media and fans both focus too much on the negative sides of FS to the point where I wonder why some people are even following it. If the sport was so unappealing on its own why do we get so many fans who started following the sport because they stumbled on a video on Youtube or where channel surfing and ended up watching FS by accident.
Figure skating is a beautiful sport that combines athleticism and artistic expression, which makes it unique and that is enough of a selling point if presented positively. However, as I said before, it is not a mainstream sport because of that exact same quality, and that is not necessarily a bad thing.

Also, if I remember correctly, the problem with Nathan's costumes was that many did not see how it relates to his programs. FS is an artistic sport and costumes are part of the artistic expression of the program and skater. A plain or even ugly costume can be accepted easier if it works with the theme of the program. We as fans do discuss costumes but we also talk about choreography, layouts, spins, edges, etc. for us costumes are part of the package that is the program and not THE thing to talk about, that is not the case when the media singles out this aspect and makes it bigger than it is.
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
Making figure skating mainstream is exactly the way to kill it. It is a unique sport

IMO the problem is the marketing of the sport,
not because it is hard to sell but because the media is not trying.

You simply cannot have your cake and eat it... you have exposed the exact problem... which is why, some of us are saying, without a larger audience, which will not come magically, some measures need to be applied... but people want to keep FS in 1950s... so there..you have it... niche sport... for those who like warhorses and sequins...
media will care when it has something to talk about which will be followed by everyone...

I personally wouldn't care if skaters lost their costuming if it meant sponsors and media... when you think about it, costuming is extremely expensive... it costs money to skaters... if it were to become athletic gear... not only sponsors would create it for their athletes, but GIVE money to skaters to wear it... instead of the opposite... and sponsors would WANT media to be there... and would make sure it happens... so all the little fans of TCC go and buy the outfits of their superhero on ice.

VERY simple... it doesn't kill the sport... it kills old fashioned costuming... even classical musicians are less and less dressed in the traditional way... some like Yuja Wang go over the top sexy... while others remain very laid back... there are less penguin looking musicians every year....

but you know... to each its own... I love the costuming personally... it gives me something to rant about and to laugh at... as every year, someone shows up as a peacock at the chicken ball... BUT... i love skating enough to let go of simple things that could make the sport more marketable.. yeah... that means also more mainstream... sorry but i had to point out that in my opinion, your post is a paradoxal one.
 

Neenah16

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 4, 2016
You simply cannot have your cake and eat it... you have exposed the exact problem... which is why, some of us are saying, without a larger audience, which will not come magically, some measures need to be applied... but people want to keep FS in 1950s... so there..you have it... niche sport... for those who like warhorses and sequins...
media will care when it has something to talk about which will be followed by everyone...

I personally wouldn't care if skaters lost their costuming if it meant sponsors and media... when you think about it, costuming is extremely expensive... it costs money to skaters... if it were to become athletic gear... not only sponsors would create it for their athletes, but GIVE money to skaters to wear it... instead of the opposite... and sponsors would WANT media to be there... and would make sure it happens... so all the little fans of TCC go and buy the outfits of their superhero on ice.

VERY simple... it doesn't kill the sport... it kills old fashioned costuming... even classical musicians are less and less dressed in the traditional way... some like Yuja Wang go over the top sexy... while others remain very laid back... there are less penguin looking musicians every year....

but you know... to each its own... I love the costuming personally... it gives me something to rant about and to laugh at... as every year, someone shows up as a peacock at the chicken ball... BUT... i love skating enough to let go of simple things that could make the sport more marketable.. yeah... that means also more mainstream... sorry but i had to point out that in my opinion, your post is a paradoxal one.

There is no paradox at all. What I am saying is the sport should not have to lose its identity to get the mass appeal that we know won't happen. Not because of costumes like you are implying but because of accessibility. The reason football has such a large following is not because the players are wearing shorts but because everyone can play football anywhere, which is not the case for figure skating. The little kids at TCC may buy the outfit of Their superhero as you say, but how many kids do we need at TCC to make it worth it. Or would kids buy the outfit and wear it to play football or baseball in the park?!!!!
Also, you make it sound like the judges have been penalizing skaters wearing regular or simple outfits which is not true. I have seen fans complaining but not officials.

As for costumes, you seem to be a big proponent of the athletic gear so let me ask you this, why do athletes wear uniforms and athletic gear in other sports? are they doing it because they are more sporty and athletic or are they wearing it because that is what the sport they do require. Aren't team sports using uniforms because they need to be identified as a team? aren't swimmers, runners, skiers, etc. wearing uniforms and gear that assists them and help them perform better in their chosen sport? Why is it that they can have that assistant while figure skaters who use the costumes as a part of their presentation are criticized? Is it the feathers and sparkle? do you think other sports won't use these things if it was actually available to them and doesn't impede performance? Have you seen the designs and garish colors some use in their uniforms? Why is it okay for them and not figure skaters? What do you think?
IMO costumes don't have to be expensive and the skaters can wear anything simple as long as it fits their program. What I am arguing is that they should have that option because it helps them express themselves and is part of the program.

Modernizing the sport does not mean it has to change completely or discard its identity (not talking only about costumes here). The technical side of the sport is already advanced and "modern", what is needed is for the music choices and choreography to catch up and that is already happening. They now allow lyrics and there are more options available to the skaters. There are also many new choreographers entering the scene and making a name for themselves. With new modern programs, we will naturally have new modern costuming. However, these things take time, and should happen naturally or you will end up losing the people who are interested in the sport (skaters and fans) and this is what I think the sport won't survive.

Since you have been following the sport longer than me you may be able to answer this, who was sponsoring the sport in its golden days in NA? Why was costuming not an issue then and did not bother sponsors and the media? What made the sport popular then and why can't it be replicated now without compromising the sport itself?
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
There is no paradox at all. What I am saying is the sport should not have to lose its identity to get the mass appeal that we know won't happen. Not because of costumes like you are implying but because of accessibility. The reason football has such a large following is not because the players are wearing shorts but because everyone can play football anywhere, which is not the case for figure skating. The little kids at TCC may buy the outfit of Their superhero as you say, but how many kids do we need at TCC to make it worth it. Or would kids buy the outfit and wear it to play football or baseball in the park?!!!!
Also, you make it sound like the judges have been penalizing skaters wearing regular or simple outfits which is not true. I have seen fans complaining but not officials.

As for costumes, you seem to be a big proponent of the athletic gear so let me ask you this, why do athletes wear uniforms and athletic gear in other sports? are they doing it because they are more sporty and athletic or are they wearing it because that is what the sport they do require. Aren't team sports using uniforms because they need to be identified as a team? aren't swimmers, runners, skiers, etc. wearing uniforms and gear that assists them and help them perform better in their chosen sport? Why is it that they can have that assistant while figure skaters who use the costumes as a part of their presentation are criticized? Is it the feathers and sparkle? do you think other sports won't use these things if it was actually available to them and doesn't impede performance? Have you seen the designs and garish colors some use in their uniforms? Why is it okay for them and not figure skaters? What do you think?
IMO costumes don't have to be expensive and the skaters can wear anything simple as long as it fits their program. What I am arguing is that they should have that option because it helps them express themselves and is part of the program.

Modernizing the sport does not mean it has to change completely or discard its identity (not talking only about costumes here). The technical side of the sport is already advanced and "modern", what is needed is for the music choices and choreography to catch up and that is already happening. They now allow lyrics and there are more options available to the skaters. There are also many new choreographers entering the scene and making a name for themselves. With new modern programs, we will naturally have new modern costuming. However, these things take time, and should happen naturally or you will end up losing the people who are interested in the sport (skaters and fans) and this is what I think the sport won't survive.

Since you have been following the sport longer than me you may be able to answer this, who was sponsoring the sport in its golden days in NA? Why was costuming not an issue then and did not bother sponsors and the media? What made the sport popular then and why can't it be replicated now without compromising the sport itself?

bolded parts
1) that's true... fair point
2) i never said that??? :confused:

i didn't address the whole paragraph about costuming because i actually like costumes... even the ones i don't like :) and by the way, my original post in this thread wasn't focusing on costuming... for me that's only ONE of the things that needs addressing.

bolded part 3) there are even older fans than i am in here... but IMHO the most important sport killer is corruption.... judging scandals ... Didier... le gougne... the whole SLC fiasco... Sochi... KOREA... you name it.... the sport lost credibility in the media and in casual fans... who then looked at other spectacular sports and invested themselves in there... THe sponsors before were bg companies like insurance companies, candy, big retailers, you name it... I think that after Michelle Kwan, the sport died even more in the USA for lack of success in the ladies discipline which was their main focus.

BTW some have argued on TV.. not me... and I won't reopen this can of worm by linking the video... that feathers and sequins is stopping parents of young boys to see the sport as a sport, a masculine sport... so that could also be in the mind of some parents... the argument my dad had to prevent me from figure skating was money... so i was offered other "manly" sports... but i will never know if he thought the sport was too feminine...can't ask him either... he is gone... but i can tell you that it is the only sport on blades my dad ddn't practice, he played hockey to a certain level that nowadays would equal minor league but professional... he was a speed skater, both long track and short track and... wait for it... a barrel jumper... i ended up being a swimmer.... i loved my speedos ;)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Since you have been following the sport longer than me you may be able to answer this, who was sponsoring the sport in its golden days in NA? Why was costuming not an issue then and did not bother sponsors and the media? What made the sport popular then and why can't it be replicated now without compromising the sport itself?

Here is my two cents. In the golden age of figure skating, I think the public's view of the sport was this:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/97/29/aa/9729aa6f9f11363991e28266a47f89c3--ice-skaters-vintage-posters.jpg

Men's figure skating?

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f1/89/eb/f189ebbf053b513c496dc7e6cefacd5e.jpg

(Don't laugh. Mr. Frick and Mr. Frack are both in the World Figure Skating Hall of Fame.)

As for men's costumes, who wants to watch a man skating at all, no matter what he has on (except for comic relief).

Personally, I don't think figure skating will ever have the mass appeal it once did no matter what we do. Cultural tastes evolve. We are no longer so much into beauty contests and Las Vegas girly shows as we once were.

As for sponsorships, the last U.S. figure skater who had any cachet with the great unwashed public (especially with children) was Michelle Kwan. She had many sponsorships. The three biggest in terms of money (besides the USFSA/ABC TV) were Disneyland, Coca-cola and Chevrolet, all over a million dollars.
 

Neenah16

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 4, 2016
bolded parts

2) i never said that??? :confused:
This is what I understood from your posts, if I was wrong I apologize.
bolded part 3) there are even older fans than i am in here... but IMHO the most important sport killer is corruption.... judging scandals ... Didier... le gougne... the whole SLC fiasco... Sochi... KOREA... you name it.... the sport lost credibility in the media and in casual fans... who then looked at other spectacular sports and invested themselves in there... THe sponsors before were bg companies like insurance companies, candy, big retailers, you name it... I think that after Michelle Kwan, the sport died even more in the USA for lack of success in the ladies discipline which was their main focus.
I agree it is a big issue but FS is not the only sport with that problem either. Even football and the FIFA have this issue and the sport is still going strong :confused2:
BTW some have argued on TV.. not me... and I won't reopen this can of worm by linking the video... that feathers and sequins is stopping parents of young boys to see the sport as a sport, a masculine sport... so that could also be in the mind of some parents... the argument my dad had to prevent me from figure skating was money... so i was offered other "manly" sports... but i will never know if he thought the sport was too feminine...can't ask him either... he is gone... but i can tell you that it is the only sport on blades my dad ddn't practice, he played hockey to a certain level that nowadays would equal minor league but professional... he was a speed skater, both long track and short track and... wait for it... a barrel jumper... i ended up being a swimmer.... i loved my speedos ;)
Glad you found something you loved to do, I hope that helps you understand the feelings of the skaters who love FS and chose it over all other sports, feathers and sequins included. If those things are stopping some parents from considering FS as a sport, then it is more important that we (media and fans) make sure it it presented properly.

Here is my two cents. In the golden age of figure skating, I think the public's view of the sport was this:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/97/29/aa/9729aa6f9f11363991e28266a47f89c3--ice-skaters-vintage-posters.jpg

Men's figure skating?

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f1/89/eb/f189ebbf053b513c496dc7e6cefacd5e.jpg

(Don't laugh. Mr. Frick and Mr. Frack are both in the World Figure Skating Hall of Fame.)

As for men's costumes, who wants to watch a man skating at all, no matter what he has on (except for comic relief).

Personally, I don't think figure skating will ever have the mass appeal it once did no matter what we do. Cultural tastes evolve. We are no longer so much into beauty contests and Las Vegas girly shows as we once were.

As for sponsorships, the last U.S. figure skater who had any cachet with the great unwashed public (especially with children) was Michelle Kwan. She had many sponsorships. The three biggest in terms of money (besides the USFSA/ABC TV) were Disneyland, Coca-cola and Chevrolet, all over a million dollars.

Thank you for the info, it is interesting. I keep wondering if the sponsorship in FS is more about the skater than the sport. The big names seem to be doing well individually in the past and currently, maybe because it is an individual and not a team sport.

They could make the team event a real team competition with uniforms and teamwork or something to make sponsors happy? or would that be too similar to synchro
 
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