Tips for pronating / blade positioning

Hello hello, I am new to GoldenSkate but have been lurking for the past few months - I'm an adult skater, started about 5 months ago after having skated recreationally as a child. I am in the Adult Learn to Skate program here in the US in addition to having occasional private lessons. I am here because I love the way skating makes me feel - eventually I hope to enter the world of ice dance and maybe even make it to adult nationals many years from now. For now, I'm taking it slow and enjoying being on the ice again. I skate about 3 times a week right now.

Long story short: I am in the Jackson Artiste skates and like them... except that I am always on an inside edge and find it basically impossible to be on an outside edge. This became apparent when I was learning one-foot glides and would curve sharply inwards instead of being on a flat or even an outside edge. One of the group coaches believes that the blade is positioned improperly for my body (presumably because I pronate a bit). Unfortunately, the Artiste is an entry-level boot-blade combo and, to my knowledge, the blade cannot be moved. I'm on a budget and thought I had made a two-year (ish) investment with the Artistes, so it's quite a blow to realize I may need to upgrade to a boot with separate blade so quickly. (The resale value for a skate like this will be very low.)

So, while I try to save up money for a higher level pair of boots and blades, are there any "hacks" or tips on how to handle my current ill-positioned blades? I've seen mentions of cutting up half an insole and placing it on one side or another... Another coach said I might be able to work on strengthening my ankles / overcompensating, but I don't know how easy that is, nor if it will lead to bad habits in the future. (I don't know how much of this can be chalked up to how new I am to skating, versus improper blade positioning.)

For my upgrade, I am eyeing the Jackson Finesse, a discontinued dance boot rated at a 45 stiffness (compared to the 25 stiffness of my Artistes). Is this potentially too much boot / over-booting for me? (I weigh about 115 lbs, if that helps.) The Artistes feel pretty soft to me and I am not opposed to a stiffer boot, just not sure if almost doubling the stiffness might be an issue.

Thank you in advance for any insight/tips! :luv17:

I'll leave the blade placement issue to other people who might have a better idea about it, but I will say that you should definitely take your coach's advice about working on ankle strength. Strengthening your ankles (and feet) is never a bad idea when you're skating. There are simple exercises you can do at home which I'm sure your coach can tell you more about.

Personally, since I have a background in ballet, I like doing ballet exercises to work on ankle strength and mobility, but there are super basic things that can also help that are both free and take very little time out of your day. Doing calf raises when I brush my teeth or do the dishes is a favorite of mine. I also like working with those stretchy rubber resistance bands. I find them super helpful for developing ankle strength. While I do like a good, stiff boot, it's also good to remember that the boot is there to support you, not to do the work for you. Your ankles have to be strong enough to hold you up regardless of the boot you're in.

I don't feel like I have enough info about your particular situation to tell you what to do with your boots (especially since this is such an expensive sport), but I will say that the Artiste is really soft, especially if you're skating 3 times a week. It might be worth trying on stiffer boots to see how they feel.

I don't think a stiffness of 45 will be too much. I weigh a bit less than you and my Jacksons have a higher stiffness rating than that and I have no problems, on the contrary, I love them (I don't do actual ice dance, but I focus a lot on footwork).
The Finesse are heat moldable, so you can always do that to break them in faster, which otherwise might take quite some time when you're skating at a beginner level.

Of course you wanna make sure that you can flex your ankles enough, especially when doing steps and turns, but you can adjust that by not lacing them too tight above the ankle area (which you shouldn't do anyways, of course), leaving enough room for when you bend your knees, but you will still have that lateral support from the stiff boots.

Are you sure there are no beginner skaters that would love to buy your boots second-hand for a decent price? I mean, I don't know what state your boots are in after those 5 months, but if they're still in a good condition...

I sometimes have similar problems with my right foot (although I'm not sure it's "classic" overpronation, I just think my leg ist turned-out too much at the hip or something ) where it feels like I'm not over my blade correctly...
I've never struggled with my outside edge, I guess I simply compensate for it with more of a lean, but my inside edge tends to be too deep, so I usually struggle with that.
Last time I finally got fed up with this, but I didn't wanna meddle with blade positioning using a wedge or shifting it on the sole (the guy at our shop doesn't have the expertise to do that either, I mean, he's open to experimenting, but he's not an expert fitter).
So I decided to first experiment with the insoles, to see if it would even make a difference. It did help a lot, but only when I raised the inside part of the sole so much, that I ended up with an extreme slant! I didn't actually feel it at all while I was skating, which I thought was surprising, but afterwards my ankle hurt, which I expected, because that kind of slant can't be healthy. When I changed it up a little next time, my toes started cramping...

So yeah, I haven't found a solution yet (I have made an appointment with my orthopedist though, lol) and I may try to shift my blade 1-2 mm to the side, should I still struggle with it so much (it gets worse when my boots soften somewhat with age, but since they're not even close to breaking, I'm sure not gonna buy new ones).
But I mean, you could experiment a little with your insoles the way I did, just to see how it feels and what impact it has on your skating. But I don't think this is a viable long-term option, and it might cause more damage than it helps, because such a self-made insole is not the healthiest thing for your ankles.
So buying new boots certainly is your best option I'm afraid.

Insoles can actually help more than you might think they would. Riedell has an insole called R-fit that I swear by. I pronate something terrible on my right foot and have used these footbeds for years, and I have my blades mounted standard and straight. They come pieced out so you can "build" your perfect insole, and they have a pronation wedge that corrects your foot position. It also ends up causing me much less pain than I had daily when I skated as a teenager; I had my blades adjusted then, but was still uncomfortable and toughed it out. Obviously blade adjustment is usually the go-to, and it works for most, but for some reason it didn't work for me. I'm in an Edea boot for freestyle and a much stiffer Jackson one for dance. I use the $40 riedell insoles in both with no issue.

I don't know what to tell you about using beginner skates, but if you get skates with re-positionable blades, you need to see a really good skate tech to figure out blade placement. Not all people who "pronate" have the same type of movement n their foot. I think for most, the entire side of the foot goes in, but for others, it is just the front of the foot or just the heel past the ankle that bends oddly when stepping. My one foot requires the blade to be at an angle, which took a couple years of struggling to find out, as people we're just going with the routine idea of setting the blade to the inside a little.

bunnybarista said:

Long story short: I am in the Jackson Artiste skates and like them... except that I am always on an inside edge and find it basically impossible to be on an outside edge. This became apparent when I was learning one-foot glides and would curve sharply inwards instead of being on a flat or even an outside edge. One of the group coaches believes that the blade is positioned improperly for my body (presumably because I pronate a bit). Unfortunately, the Artiste is an entry-level boot-blade combo and, to my knowledge, the blade cannot be moved. I'm on a budget and thought I had made a two-year (ish) investment with the Artistes, so it's quite a blow to realize I may need to upgrade to a boot with separate blade so quickly. (The resale value for a skate like this will be very low.)

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According to the Jackson website, the blade on the Artiste is mounted with screws. Therefore, the blade can be repositioned. In my area, if you buy the skates from a decent pro shop, repositioning and shimming are included in the purchase price. If you bought them online or from another shop, the services are pricey (~$50 or more); so get a quote first if you need to pay. If you're handy with tools, you can do some of this stuff yourself.

I pronate strongly (currently wearing Jackson Elites). Here are the steps I recommend (depending on how strongly you pronate):

(1) The stock Jackson footbed provides little arch support. Swap them out for footbeds with more arch support. I make my own. Other skaters have had success with the Superfeet Yellow or the Riedell kit previously mentioned. Note: It's a bit of hit-or-miss whether over-the-counter arch supports will work for you.

(2) Move the blade to the inside. I've found that you can offset the center axis of the blade from the center axis of the sole-heel by up to 1/8" without problems. A 1/4" offset is extreme and creates instability.

(3) If (1) and (2) aren't sufficient, you'll need to shim the blade along the outside edge. This needs to be carefully done, or else you can warp the blade.

Often several iterations are needed to get it right. It's easier if you have a skate tech at a rink, so you can try out an adjustment right away; otherwise, you need to go back and forth between the skate shop and the rink.

It could be a combination of things. Are your waking shoes worn unevenly also? If not, I would only ask for a small blade adjustment.

I think many beginners have problems skating on outside edges to start with. When you are used to skating on 2 feet with a wide stance then it’s just natural to fall onto inside edges. Sometimes it means your skates aren’t tight or supportive enough if your ankles collapse while skating on one foot. Because of this, I would be careful before compensating with the blade a huge amount, start small.

likevelvet said:

Insoles can actually help more than you might think they would. Riedell has an insole called R-fit that I swear by. I pronate something terrible on my right foot and have used these footbeds for years, and I have my blades mounted standard and straight. They come pieced out so you can "build" your perfect insole, and they have a pronation wedge that corrects your foot position. It also ends up causing me much less pain than I had daily when I skated as a teenager; I had my blades adjusted then, but was still uncomfortable and toughed it out. Obviously blade adjustment is usually the go-to, and it works for most, but for some reason it didn't work for me. I'm in an Edea boot for freestyle and a much stiffer Jackson one for dance. I use the $40 riedell insoles in both with no issue.

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I use the Riedell foot bed kit and love it too, but I use it with a Riedell boot right now. It’s nice to know you can use it with another boot though! Another skater at my rink was asking if it could be used in an Edea boot, is there a size adjustment you need to make when ordering it for the edea boot?

(Sorry to go off topic. I don’t have any advice for Jackson’s or pronation. I have a very slight pronation on one foot that I’ve mostly trained myself to fix when it impacts something, so I’ve not tried anything and I can’t use the pronation wedge for the heel because I use heel lifts to help with heel slippage, but good luck!)

DanseMacabre said:

Strengthening your ankles (and feet) is never a bad idea when you're skating. There are simple exercises you can do at home which I'm sure your coach can tell you more about.
Personally, since I have a background in ballet, I like doing ballet exercises to work on ankle strength and mobility, but there are super basic things that can also help that are both free and take very little time out of your day. Doing calf raises when I brush my teeth or do the dishes is a favorite of mine. I also like working with those stretchy rubber resistance bands. I find them super helpful for developing ankle strength. While I do like a good, stiff boot, it's also good to remember that the boot is there to support you, not to do the work for you. Your ankles have to be strong enough to hold you up regardless of the boot you're in.

Click to expand...

This is a great point – I know I should be working on my ankles regardless of the blade placement. Thanks for the strengthening suggestions! I will look into them.

1111bm said:

I don't think a stiffness of 45 will be too much. I weigh a bit less than you and my Jacksons have a higher stiffness rating than that and I have no problems, on the contrary, I love them (I don't do actual ice dance, but I focus a lot on footwork). The Finesse are heat moldable, so you can always do that to break them in faster, which otherwise might take quite some time when you're skating at a beginner level.
Are you sure there are no beginner skaters that would love to buy your boots second-hand for a decent price? I mean, I don't know what state your boots are in after those 5 months, but if they're still in a good condition...

Click to expand...

I’m glad to hear that the stiffness probably won’t be an issue for me!.And yes, heat molding makes a world of a difference! As for selling my current boots, they are actually as good as new as I had them exchanged about a month ago (for a different reason), but the chances of finding someone that’s exactly the same size and width seem pretty low. hwell:

likevelvet said:

Insoles can actually help more than you might think they would. Riedell has an insole called R-fit that I swear by. I pronate something terrible on my right foot and have used these footbeds for years, and I have my blades mounted standard and straight. They come pieced out so you can "build" your perfect insole, and they have a pronation wedge that corrects your foot position. It also ends up causing me much less pain than I had daily when I skated as a teenager; I had my blades adjusted then, but was still uncomfortable and toughed it out. Obviously blade adjustment is usually the go-to, and it works for most, but for some reason it didn't work for me. I'm in an Edea boot for freestyle and a much stiffer Jackson one for dance. I use the $40 riedell insoles in both with no issue.

Click to expand...

Thank you for this suggestion!! Great to know that the Riedell insoles seem to work in other brands, including Jackson. Of course, at $40 I have to consider if it’s worth investing that money in an insole or putting that money towards my next pair of boots…

treesprite said:

I don't know what to tell you about using beginner skates, but if you get skates with re-positionable blades, you need to see a really good skate tech to figure out blade placement. Not all people who "pronate" have the same type of movement n their foot. I think for most, the entire side of the foot goes in, but for others, it is just the front of the foot or just the heel past the ankle that bends oddly when stepping. My one foot requires the blade to be at an angle, which took a couple years of struggling to find out, as people we're just going with the routine idea of setting the blade to the inside a little.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the insight – I’m not sure what way / how much I pronate. I have to find time to see my fitter again and ask if he can diagnose the type of pronation and what angle the blade should ideally be set at.

tstop4me said:

According to the Jackson website, the blade on the Artiste is mounted with screws. Therefore, the blade can be repositioned. In my area, if you buy the skates from a decent pro shop, repositioning and shimming are included in the purchase price. If you bought them online or from another shop, the services are pricey (~$50 or more); so get a quote first if you need to pay. If you're handy with tools, you can do some of this stuff yourself.

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Ooh, the plot thickens! If the blade is repositionable, then that would be fantastic! I will call my fitter and ask (I know I should talk to him anyway, just wanted to get some additional opinions). And thank you for the details on moving the blade – I’m not particularly handy, but I will keep this information on hand.

jf12 said:

It could be a combination of things. Are your waking shoes worn unevenly also? If not, I would only ask for a small blade adjustment.
I think many beginners have problems skating on outside edges to start with. When you are used to skating on 2 feet with a wide stance then it’s just natural to fall onto inside edges. Sometimes it means your skates aren’t tight or supportive enough if your ankles collapse while skating on one foot. Because of this, I would be careful before compensating with the blade a huge amount, start small.

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This is a key point – I’m too new to know if it’s actually just me having really weak ankles, or if it’s the blade, or maybe a combination. I’m just going off of what the one coach told me. (My other coach originally felt it could just be me being weak-ankled.) My shoes aren’t super unevenly worn down, maybe just a little bit, so I’ll have to be careful about the blade repositioning. That, and working hard on those pesky ankles!



Thank you to everyone who responded! :luv17: I am going to call my fitter today and ask if the blades can be moved. (And if he can officially diagnose the problem as being the blades as versus me.) If they can be moved, hooray! If they can’t, well, I'll play around with insoles and ankle strengthening exercises until it's time to buy the Finesse. To be honest, I’ve found what seems to be a fantastic deal on the Finesse boots so I am seriously considering buying them even if my current blades can be repositioned – I figure, eventually I will need something stiffer and the Finesse could just hang out in my closet for a year or two. Psst, does anyone know if boots have a “shelf life”? Like are there any downsides to buying a boot for the future and having it sit for a year-ish before using it?

bunnybarista said:

Psst, does anyone know if boots have a “shelf life”? Like are there any downsides to buying a boot for the future and having it sit for a year-ish before using it?

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One year is no problem at all. When stashed away for 10 yrs or more, some foams (such as used to line tongues or pad ankles) deteriorate: some foams dry up and crumble; other foams turn to jelly; yet other foams are more stable.

Silver Ice said:

I use the Riedell foot bed kit and love it too, but I use it with a Riedell boot right now. It’s nice to know you can use it with another boot though! Another skater at my rink was asking if it could be used in an Edea boot, is there a size adjustment you need to make when ordering it for the edea boot?

(Sorry to go off topic. I don’t have any advice for Jackson’s or pronation. I have a very slight pronation on one foot that I’ve mostly trained myself to fix when it impacts something, so I’ve not tried anything and I can’t use the pronation wedge for the heel because I use heel lifts to help with heel slippage, but good luck!)

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I have the same size footbeds in both pairs of boots. They can be trimmed, but I didn't do so with either because I'm at the high end of the size range that the insoles come in. I made sure they would work when I got the Edeas by simply taking the stock Edea insole out of the boot and matching it up with the new insole.

Latest update: I went to my fitter, who confirmed that the blades CAN be moved (hooray!), but he suggested trying a "shim" first since it can be done on the spot. (Moving blades on plastic requires keeping the skates overnight to plug up/glue the holes shut.) So I got "shims" on both blades and I thought I could feel it for a minute, but it may just have been a placebo effect. No noticeable improvement on my outside edges, just a feeling that it was less easy to roll to an inside edge. Guess that's not bad, but obviously not a perfect fix. I'm going to skate on them for a few weeks before potentially getting the blades moved. For now, ankle strengthening is my #1 task!

Does anybody have suggestions for 1) ankle exercises, and 2) outside edge exercises? For the latter, I've been trying to do things like pumps on a circle, one foot glides on a circle, slalom, etc. Naturally, I will consult with my coach, but perhaps there are folks on here who likewise have struggled with outside edges in the past and have the perfect tip?

These are the sorts of exercises I do to strengthen my feet, ankles, and calves. I feel like sometimes skaters ignore building foot strength because their feet are locked into those boots, but I find that building strength in the feet helps a lot with stability and balance.

Calves and ankles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A270eFLtzX4
Feet and ankles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB72JqeALoE
Feet and ankles with resistance bands: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVvMrGMujxY

Of course, proper form is paramount to get the most out of your exercises and not hurting yourself.

bunnybarista said:

Latest update: I went to my fitter, who confirmed that the blades CAN be moved (hooray!), but he suggested trying a "shim" first since it can be done on the spot. (Moving blades on plastic requires keeping the skates overnight to plug up/glue the holes shut.) So I got "shims" on both blades and I thought I could feel it for a minute, but it may just have been a placebo effect. No noticeable improvement on my outside edges, just a feeling that it was less easy to roll to an inside edge. Guess that's not bad, but obviously not a perfect fix. I'm going to skate on them for a few weeks before potentially getting the blades moved. For now, ankle strengthening is my #1 task!

Does anybody have suggestions for 1) ankle exercises, and 2) outside edge exercises? For the latter, I've been trying to do things like pumps on a circle, one foot glides on a circle, slalom, etc. Naturally, I will consult with my coach, but perhaps there are folks on here who likewise have struggled with outside edges in the past and have the perfect tip?

Click to expand...

Both sets of exercises you’ve listed are helpful, but I would not make them your number one priority. You should focus on making sure your equipment is OK first.

(1) Unless you have truly weak ankles (in which case I think you would have noticed problems walking or running as well), you should be able to perform the following skating maneuvers. Skate along the center hockey circle on two feet to get some speed. Now lift one foot, and try to glide on a curve on the other foot. Alternate feet (right, left) and directions around the circle (clockwise, counter-clockwise) so you test all four edges (left outside, left inside, right outside, right inside). The diameter of the center hockey circle is large enough that you don’t need a very deep edge (and ankle strength) to follow it; and, by getting up to speed on two feet, you don’t need to deal with problems arising from improper push-off from a stand-still. If you can’t do these moves, take a closer look at your boots and blades.

(2) Another cause (besides pronation) of not getting on to an outside edge is improper sharpening of the blades (uneven edges). So your blades need to be checked.

(3) If your skate tech is going the shim route for expediency, you might just need a thicker shim. Many skate techs simply use a scrap piece of thin leather for a shim. But there’s a limit on how thick you can go without additional mounting changes. As I mentioned previously, resolving issues such as yours typically requires several iterations. Going back and forth between the skate tech and rink can take a while depending on all the schedules involved (yours, the skate tech’s, and the rink’s).

(4) If you are handy with tools, there’s another simple adjustment to try (if you aren’t, leave it to your skate tech). Look at the screw mounts on a blade. There typically are two types of mounting holes: elongated slots with flat tops and circular holes with countersunk tops. The elongated slots will typically have screws with raised heads (round head or pan head). The circular holes will typically have screws with flush heads (flat heads). [Some manufacturers deviate from this practice.] The sole plate typically has two elongated slots, and the heel plate typically has two elongated slots. If you keep the four screws in the elongated slots and remove the remaining screws (screws in circular holes), you will be left with what is known as a “temporary mount”. If you loosen (but not remove) the four screws in the elongated slots, you will be able to slide the blade towards the inside of the boot. Then retighten the screws and try skating. See if there is a slight improvement. If so, at least you are on the right track, and it’ll be worthwhile for a proper remount (plug existing holes, and redrill new ones). The blades may need to be moved further in than the slots allow (plug existing holes, and redrill new ones). [This temporary mount does not allow you to jump or spin, but you aren’t doing those yet anyway.]

(5) As I posted earlier, often (depending on the severity of pronation) a combo of corrections is needed: footbeds, blade positioning, and blade shimming. A good skate tech should go over all these options with you.

Are you 100% sure they're the right size, and did you buy them new? It could be that they're too big and/or they're worn out and lack ankle support.

Rather than adjusting the blades (unless they're mounted wrong in general), I'd work on fixing the pronation. Often, pronation is the tip of the iceberg, and your entire posture is off due to muscle imbalances. My "pronation" problem turned out to be connected to my entire body being completely out of alignment. Can you get to a physical therapist? Beyond skating, it's important to fix things like that to avoid problems and injuries in daily life later on.

DanseMacabre said:

These are the sorts of exercises I do to strengthen my feet, ankles, and calves. I feel like sometimes skaters ignore building foot strength because their feet are locked into those boots, but I find that building strength in the feet helps a lot with stability and balance.

Calves and ankles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A270eFLtzX4
Feet and ankles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB72JqeALoE
Feet and ankles with resistance bands: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVvMrGMujxY

Click to expand...

Thank you, these look helpful and easy to follow!

tstop4me said:

(1) Unless you have truly weak ankles (in which case I think you would have noticed problems walking or running as well), you should be able to perform the following skating maneuvers. Skate along the center hockey circle on two feet to get some speed. Now lift one foot, and try to glide on a curve on the other foot. Alternate feet (right, left) and directions around the circle (clockwise, counter-clockwise) so you test all four edges (left outside, left inside, right outside, right inside). The diameter of the center hockey circle is large enough that you don’t need a very deep edge (and ankle strength) to follow it; and, by getting up to speed on two feet, you don’t need to deal with problems arising from improper push-off from a stand-still. If you can’t do these moves, take a closer look at your boots and blades.

(2) Another cause (besides pronation) of not getting on to an outside edge is improper sharpening of the blades (uneven edges). So your blades need to be checked.

Click to expand...

Yesterday I had a minor breakthrough - I was doing exactly what you described, working all 4 forward edges, and surprisingly my outside edges were easier than my inside edges! My coach and I were both baffled. Maybe this is thanks to the shim... hard to tell. My inside edge was still too deep, but the outside edge was - while slightly shallow - following the circle quite well on both feet.

My skate fitter/tech is a really excellent guy and he's the only one I let sharpen my blades, so it's not a question of an uneven sharpening.

hanyuufan5 said:

Are you 100% sure they're the right size, and did you buy them new? It could be that they're too big and/or they're worn out and lack ankle support.

Rather than adjusting the blades (unless they're mounted wrong in general), I'd work on fixing the pronation. Often, pronation is the tip of the iceberg, and your entire posture is off due to muscle imbalances. My "pronation" problem turned out to be connected to my entire body being completely out of alignment. Can you get to a physical therapist? Beyond skating, it's important to fix things like that to avoid problems and injuries in daily life later on.

Click to expand...

Yep, I bought them brand new and they are fitted to my foot, so not an issue of being big or old. I wish I could afford going to a physical therapist as I definitely have alignment issues in my hips/shoulders which could easily, as you suggested, be causing some of my edge difficulties. Last night my coach noticed that I was leaning to the left even when stroking to the right, for example. We'll definitely have to keep an eye on that.


My continued thanks to you folks for your input and tips!

hanyuufan5 said:

Are you 100% sure they're the right size, and did you buy them new? It could be that they're too big and/or they're worn out and lack ankle support.

Rather than adjusting the blades (unless they're mounted wrong in general), I'd work on fixing the pronation. Often, pronation is the tip of the iceberg, and your entire posture is off due to muscle imbalances. My "pronation" problem turned out to be connected to my entire body being completely out of alignment. Can you get to a physical therapist? Beyond skating, it's important to fix things like that to avoid problems and injuries in daily life later on.

Click to expand...

Wow, this is really interesting, something to think about.

This was timely. At Harlick today we found out my skater has a pronation, and she's been having a terrible time on her 3 turns for pre-juvenile moves. Coach says she does something on an outside edge that should be physically impossible. Was thinking maybe spending the $$$ for Harlicks might be ok if it helps with that since they offered an inside wedge correction option, but there seem to be several less drastic/read costly solutions to try first. Maybe we aren't out of stock Jacksons just yet! I'll have our fitter look at her blades as well.