Full blade takeoff in the Flip and Lutz

charlotte14 · Jul 18, 2018

For example https://youtu.be/0W8pIUWAy2s
So Osmond takeoff in the Lutz is not a good one.
Also many people have pointed out the Russian girls like Medvedeva, Anna Pogorilaya, and other ladies for having full blade takeoff in the Flip and Lutz. In the men we have Dimitri Aliev and Shoma Uno and Vincent Zhou...
Should this kind of full blade takeoff get deduction in the GOE and be classified as Bad Takeoff?

vorravorra · Jul 18, 2018

charlotte14 said:
For example https://youtu.be/0W8pIUWAy2s
So Osmond takeoff in the Lutz is not a good one.
Also many people have pointed out the Russian girls like Medvedeva, Anna Pogorilaya, and other ladies for having full blade takeoff in the Flip and Lutz. In the men we have Dimitri Aliev and Shoma Uno and Vincent Zhou...
Should this kind of full blade takeoff get deduction in the GOE and be classified as Bad Takeoff?

Theoretically, yes, practically, I am not sure ISU wants to go there. Too many skaters have flips and lutzes which are not quite flips and lutzes strictly speaking, imagine if all of them started getting penalised? Can of worms.

karne · Jul 18, 2018

Oh my god. I always roll my eyes so freakin' hard whenever I see this "full blade takeoff!" slur being bandied around. It's such a misleading title for it. You cannot have a full blade takeoff, you would die. It's just someone who takes off lower on the toepick and with more of the front of the blade touching the ice.

chopinskate · Jul 18, 2018

karne said:
Oh my god. I always roll my eyes so freakin' hard whenever I see this "full blade takeoff!" slur being bandied around. It's such a misleading title for it. You cannot have a full blade takeoff, you would die. It's just someone who takes off lower on the toepick and with more of the front of the blade touching the ice.

... Well that can't possibly fit into the title of the thread. I'm sure the fans can determine what they mean, if they know what to look for. The point of the thread is to determine whether or not there should be a deduction for it.

karne · Jul 18, 2018

chopinskate said:
... Well that can't possibly fit into the title of the thread. I'm sure the fans can determine what they mean, if they know what to look for. The point of the thread is to determine whether or not there should be a deduction for it.

Why? It's not incorrect. It's just a different way to take off.

vorravorra · Jul 18, 2018

karne said:
Oh my god. I always roll my eyes so freakin' hard whenever I see this "full blade takeoff!" slur being bandied around. It's such a misleading title for it. You cannot have a full blade takeoff, you would die. It's just someone who takes off lower on the toepick and with more of the front of the blade touching the ice.

So this is just lower on the toepick with more of the front of the blade touching the ice?

https://www.tulup.ru/forum/topic/36587/message502669.html

vorravorra · Jul 18, 2018

karne said:
Why? It's not incorrect. It's just a different way to take off.

Who defines "incorrect"? If you say only things that ISU chooses to punish are incorrect, then yes, it's perfectly fine.

karne · Jul 18, 2018

vorravorra said:
So this is just lower on the toepick with more of the front of the blade touching the ice?

https://www.tulup.ru/forum/topic/36587/message502669.html

Um, yes? Do you see her heel on the ice?

Yuzuruu · Jul 18, 2018

Well, take Aliev's quad "lutz" and Boyang's quad LUTZ and tell me it's the same and deserves same amount of points (nevermind the height and landing). It doesn't. Boyang has a true lutz and Aliev has a loop-lutz and deserves 0 GOE at best for it. Rules are made to be applied (in theory of course :disapp

because otherwise why have rules and technique at all when it doesn't even matter how you perform an element as long as it from the correct leg? Honestly it makes me mad because it is extremely unfair to the skaters who have actual, good technique.

vorravorra said:
Theoretically, yes, practically, I am not sure ISU wants to go there. Too many skaters have flips and lutzes which are not quite flips and lutzes strictly speaking, imagine if all of them started getting penalised? Can of worms.

Yeah ... ISU is just a joke these days.

karne said:
Why? It's not incorrect. It's just a different way to take off.

It is incorrect according to ISU itself, there are simulations, you can check them out on YouTube.

And BTW Scherbakova has a lot of prerotation, flat edge and full blade takeoff on her "quad lutz" so if this gets ratified at an ISU event I feel like the correct technique as we know it today will be dead in a few years.

vorravorra · Jul 18, 2018

karne said:
Um, yes? Do you see her heel on the ice?

Well, I suppose you could technically argue even 99% is not full blade... But she pushes off from the blade, not the toe. These jumps are as good as toe jumps that actually take off from the toe until ISU decides otherwise, it's just that not everyone agrees with ISU on this matter. Same as with prerotation.

chopinskate · Jul 18, 2018

karne said:
Why? It's not incorrect. It's just a different way to take off.

It already could cause poor vault, could lead to UR issues, might lead to excessive pre-rotation, can cause swinging into jumps, etc. In these cases, (ideally) the GOE deductions should be made against the poor quality of jumps. Then, if the coach is good, they will see the poor GOE, relate them to these symptoms of poor technique, determine the cause, and try to coach the skater to fix it. This won't need additional deductions.

If the jump quality isn't being affected somehow... Meh? Just determine the GOE as you would with a toe-picked jump.

charlotte14 · Jul 18, 2018

karne said:
Oh my god. I always roll my eyes so freakin' hard whenever I see this "full blade takeoff!" slur being bandied around. It's such a misleading title for it. You cannot have a full blade takeoff, you would die. It's just someone who takes off lower on the toepick and with more of the front of the blade touching the ice.

Are you sure. Plushenko fullblade touched the ice here: https://youtu.be/5JJjIzNOkLk

Is it ok if we call both of these as the Flip jump? https://youtu.be/qzUv5fWz16Q

I agree with people that we should still consider them as Flip. But they are still very different. What should we call these? They are not the same how can we use the same name?

karne said:
It's just someone who takes off lower on the toepick and with more of the front of the blade touching the ice.

You mean this: https://youtu.be/PuXn_OYfxko

Is it still a Toe assited jump when it is not the toe that helps the skater vault up? I have very much trouble with this kind of technique. It is ok you call it toe jumps. But this kind of toe tap, do we still considere it as "good takeoff"?

vorravorra · Jul 18, 2018

Yuzuruu said:
Well, take Aliev's quad "lutz" and Boyang's quad LUTZ and tell me it's the same and deserves same amount of points (nevermind the height and landing). It doesn't. Boyang has a true lutz and Aliev has a loop-lutz and deserves 0 GOE at best for it. Rules are made to be applied (in theory of course :disapp because otherwise why have rules and technique at all when it doesn't even matter how you perform an element as long as it from the correct leg? Honestly it makes me mad because it is extremely unfair to the skaters who have actual, good technique.

If ISU wants progress defined as more harder jumps this is the way to achieve it because too few people would be able to jump them with proper technique. The only way is to compromise on technique and they must be aware of that. In ladies especially nobody seems to care any more about good jumps which is frustrating, but Shcherbakova is a good illustration as to why. Quad lutz in ladies is most likely only possible with this kind of technique because it doesn't require as much leg strength. There won't even be a lot of triple lutzes if proper technique was expected, so ISU is not going to go there. But at least not giving such jumps maximum GOE would be reasonable.

Yuzuruu said:
It is incorrect according to ISU itself, there are simulations, you can check them out on YouTube.

If ISU does not penalise it in an meaningful way then they are essentially saying it is fine regardless of what they show in simulations.

Yuzuruu · Jul 18, 2018

vorravorra said:
Quad lutz in ladies is most likely only possible with this kind of technique because it doesn't require as much leg strength. There won't even be a lot of triple lutzes if proper technique was expected, so ISU is not going to go there. But at least not giving such jumps maximum GOE would be reasonable.

Exactly my point. I know there are always gonna be skaters with great, textbook technique and those with poor one and its quite normal. I just would expect to give the former higher GOE, that's what GOE is for, right?

vorravorra said:
If ISU does not penalise it in an meaningful way then they are essentially saying it is fine regardless of what they show in simulations.

Now that just makes me sad, but I guess no point fighting it. I know it is normal that sports evolve, and I am not against it, I would just like for ISU to start differentiating between a great jump and an average one. I am real curious to see what they'll do with the +5 GOE range.

Lovechihuahua · Jul 18, 2018

This is a very common thing among ALMOST ALL the ladies, the only competitive ladies I remind can jump lutz/flip/toeloop with minimal prerotation and clear toe-pick are Kostner, Tsurskaya, Tuktamisheva, Edmunds, anyone else?
Men can always do a relatively better toe-jump than ladies
An interesting comparasion is D/R, go check their 3lz sbs in slow motion you could find Radford can jump the 3lz with crytal clear toe-pick and 90 degree prerotation while Duhamel jumped it just like all the other ladies: over 180 degree prerotation, full blade takeoffs and many other techincal problems(Her postures were always very awful).

charlotte14 · Jul 18, 2018

Ok so look at this amazing Lutz: https://youtu.be/huGupjwIuS8

And this Lutz: https://youtu.be/DCiHTNdzGW8

Just the takeoff. Are they the same?

They are both Russians. I do not get why someone think there is any conspiracy against the Russian here. Videos are from various sources. This is a legit question. How can we call both of the above the same Lutz takeoff?

Why would one persist on looking at the nationalities?

chopinskate · Jul 18, 2018

charlotte14 said:
Why would one persist on looking at the nationalities?

Because rhetoric is easier than reason.

charlotte14 · Jul 18, 2018

chopinskate said:
Because rhetoric is easier than reason.

Ok what about... Russians all of them.

Amazing Lutz takeoff by Kolyada: https://youtu.be/XGPhymzFSfo
And Samarin: https://youtu.be/DCiHTNdzGW8

If we ignore the takeoff, there might be a case the one did by Kolyada get the same GOE and BV as the one did by Samarin. Because? Judges do not look at the takeoff. Because maybe one day Samarin would be in the position to medal and one day Kolyada not. So a bad takeoff can get the same GOE as a good takeoff as long as ISU do not take this issue into account.

And it is baffling. Just saying.

charlotte14 · Jul 18, 2018

karne said:
Well, you're right I suppose, it is equally likely to be the Hanyu fans. I'm just triangulating based on who they're targeting. You know, like it's easy to figure out the motivations of a certain nameless Youtube poster constantly posting "technique analysis" of the Russian ladies (but especially Sotnikova and Medvedeva). No ulterior motive at all. This is basically the same thing.

But the videos I have shown are from various skaters. Some Russian have good technique and some do not. Some Canadian have good technique, some not. What is wrong with saying that?

karne said:
You're right, rhetoric is much easier than reason. Just like it's much easier to apparently scream "FULL BLADE LUTZ!" than to learn how to do it and realise it's physically impossible, than to understand that a takeoff on the low part of the toepick and front part of the blade is not incorrect, that just because a skater does a jump slightly differently doesn't make it wrong.

Eh... the videos show the difference. But you do not want to acknowledge the difference.

karne said:
Let's think about this for a second. You lot are trying to claim that Evgeni Plushenko, indisputably one of the greatest technicians in the history of skating, had some SUPER SKANDALOUS MAJOR TECHNIQUE FLAW that nobody but your special all-knowing selves noticed, and got away with it for twenty years, of which the last eight he was also unquestionably cast as the Evil Villain of the skating world and everyone was looking to pick him apart? Hmm. Okay.

Why it must be Plushenko to have good technique? I am not sure you have ever looked at his jumps and compared to other skaters closely. Many skaters of the previous generations do not have good technique. Michelle Kwan had a flutz. But saying that did not discredit her. History is history and could not be changed. It does not mean we have to look at the big names in the history and hail them as the best ever and never dare question their possible mistakes.

I think it is fine to say Mikhail Kolyada has much better technique than Plushenko had. Kolyada indeed has better and cleaner takeoff in toe jumps compared to Plushenko did. Videos are there, even in HD quality. It is just wrong to say Kolyada is the better competitor which no one ever says that.

Hey, I even think Elizaveta Tuktamysheva has better jump technique than Plushenko and Gachinski.

Also, why would we listen to some certain people hail someone as indisputably the GOAT while we can all look at the videos and compare various sources?

charlotte14 · Jul 18, 2018

chopinskate said:
Yeah. Maybe read the only post I actually made regarding how the issue is to be addressed in my eyes, before making another unhinged response. Maybe take the time to point out where I specifically mentioned Plushenko, too, or how posting a video to illustrate a point someone might be trying to make is a horrific crime.

oh well, Yagudin did not have a good toe tap either: https://youtu.be/Ru6aKHPf818
His flip also was not very clean: https://youtu.be/ceAVuEncfNc

And we have Urmanov who also studied with Mishin who had good toe tap: https://youtu.be/W9vK6aFDLYE

This channel seems to be done by a Russian. Don't tell me it was made by Urmanov himself? (Ok just kidding).

Full blade takeoff in the Flip and Lutz

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