The right age to start training Quads?

MasterB · Aug 13, 2018

Just finished watching the interview with Rafael A. and he states that girls in particular are ruing their bodies (not yet but in the future) by doing all of these quads and calls out the doctors and federation on this. I'm curious to know by someone with some type of medical degree if there is a safe time when a girl can practice these jumps without damaging their bodies?

The only thing I would recommend is limiting the amount of quads they practice daily but there is no guarantee that would prevent long lasting injuries. The massive triple axels that Tonya and Midori performed did not destroyed their bodies and those jumps were way bigger and more powerful than the quads being performed today.

andromache · Aug 13, 2018

MasterB said:
The only thing I would recommend is limiting the amount of quads they practice daily but there is no guarantee that would prevent long lasting injuries. The massive triple axels that Tonya and Midori performed did not destroyed their bodies and those jumps were way bigger and more powerful than the quads being performed today.

I love Raf, but it's a little hypocritical of him to criticize what the young girls are doing when Nathan was training quads young as well - and he has a ton of injuries to show for it. I do wonder if/how he limits Nathan's jump training to keep him healthy. It's possible he didn't always put limits on Nathan, but now he has? I'm assuming Raf has learned over time (as coaches do).

Tonya and Midori were probably not training 3As seriously until after puberty (just an assumption on my part - I could be totally wrong). In those days, they had to spend a ton of time training figures, which takes away the amount of time you can spend on jumps. They were also both very muscular and extremely different in body type than the tiny girls we see doing quads now. I'm sure that makes a difference. Liza Tukt hasn't had major injury problems either - she's built more like Tonya/Midori than Eteri's girls.

I think the younger girls doing 3As/quads will be fine as long as they aren't overtraining those jumps. (But I wouldn't be surprised if they are overtraining those jumps.)

rikaquegira · Aug 13, 2018

andromache said:
I think the younger girls doing 3As/quads will be fine as long as they aren't overtraining those jumps. (But I wouldn't be surprised if they are overtraining those jumps.)

It is known that Eteri students do multiple runthroughs, I wonder if that includes all jumps? Including quads in Trusova's and Anna's case???

atsumiri · Aug 13, 2018

read it Daniil Gleikhengauz (from team Tutberidze) post-Junior Worlds interview on Trusova

Q: Your athletes won three medals at the junior world championships in Sofia (two golds and one silver). Everybody talks about Sasha Trusova, who is only 13 years old, but did two quads in the program, which is not something even many boys can do. How did you achieve this result?
A: A lot depends on the athlete. Sasha has a good jump. She is very well-trained. She is very strong, both physically and mentally.
And we did not just tell her: "Go and jump the quad," and she kept falling on the ice for a while and then did it. Of course not. It took very long time to prepare for that. First we trained all the jumps. Increased the height on triples. Watched the process. Then tried with a fishing rod, in protective trousers, to avoid injuries. We spent almost a year doing that. Someone will say it is too long or too soon. But we did not hurry.
At first, she did several attempts at a practice. We let her jump 1-2 times and watched. If it went well, did a 3-4 days break. When Sasha got used to the routine, and we saw that she was physically and mentally ready, not afraid, then continued to work.
Most importantly, Sasha herself really wanted this. It's the most important. Because the greatest risk of injury is when the athlete is afraid. And you push them, telling them to go and jump. It doesn’t work with a quad. But Sasha herself wanted that and asked: "Can I do one more, and once again, can I go jump a quad." And our task was to control this. Do not let her jump more than necessary.

leoleo · Aug 13, 2018

Hard to say cause so far only one girl is landing them in competition right now. I know a lot of people worry about Sasha's health but i find that the injury talk seems like jinxing at this point. As if some people wish to see her get injured just so they can say "see, i told you quads were dangerous for teenage girls". I'm pretty sure quads aren't easy on the body, for little girls or even grown men but it's exhausting to see people talking about consequences of quads on her body when she's doing fine so far. If she gets injured in the future, well at least she would have made history? Kim Yuna ended her career with a serious back injury that lasted years and she never jumped quads. You cannot be sure she's not gonna get injured if she only jumps triples :confused2:

mishulyia · Aug 13, 2018

I recall an interview with Zagitova stating she and Tutberidze’s other skaters jump more than needed. That’s why you can see some vids of them doing 3+3+3+3+3 jumps during practice time. If you’re over jumping in practice, one triple combination during competition is going to seem like nothing in comparison. Maybe this is perhaps why Russian skaters are so mentally strong? I feel like this will definitely will lead to injury from overuse later in life, like what we’ve seen from Lipnitskaya, Sotnikova, even Tara Lipinski. I would believe a comment made somewhat off-handedly by a student more as opposed to the carefully crafted responses to criticism coming from the coaches.

glassanimal · Aug 13, 2018

atsumiri said:
read it Daniil Gleikhengauz (from team Tutberidze) post-Junior Worlds interview on Trusova

Unfortunately, statements from this team are not always reliable given past discrepancies. Hence the concern.

atsumiri · Aug 13, 2018

glassanimal said:
Unfortunately, statements from this team are not always reliable given past discrepancies. Hence the concern.

Sorry, who are you to say something like that? :sarcasm:

rikaquegira · Aug 13, 2018

leoleo said:
Hard to say cause so far only one girl is landing them in competition right now. I know a lot of people worry about Sasha's health but i find that the injury talk seems like jinxing at this point. As if some people wish to see her get injured just so they can say "see, i told you quads were dangerous for teenage girls". I'm pretty sure quads aren't easy on the body, for little girls or even grown men but it's exhausting to see people talking about consequences of quads on her body when she's doing fine so far. If she gets injured in the future, well at least she would have made history? Kim Yuna ended her career with a serious back injury that lasted years and she never jumped quads. You cannot be sure she's not gonna get injured if she only jumps triples :confused2:

It all depends on the quality of the training, at least when it's just triples. Yuna for instance, didn't have the best environment for training and the best methods, so she got severely injured. Maybe if she was training correctly she wouldn't have had the injuries she had.
With that said, maybe the same thing applies to quads of a 13yo. Maybe not. That's what I'm curious to know. I think only specialized people could answer that question.
I don't want to believe that Eteri team would put their girls through that knowing that it's damaging and will not last till Senior years. So I'm optimistic.
But I would still like to hear a doctor's opinion on the matter.

BillNeal · Aug 13, 2018

glassanimal said:
Unfortunately, statements from this team are not always reliable given past discrepancies. Hence the concern.

I agree that we should take statements from them with a grain of salt. There have been questionable training regimens for former prominent students including specific concerning details that were even boasted about from Eteri herself.

leoleo · Aug 13, 2018

rikaquegira said:
It all depends on the quality of the training, at least when it's just triples. Yuna for instance, didn't have the best environment for training and the best methods, so she got severely injured. Maybe if she was training correctly she wouldn't have had the injuries she had.
With that said, maybe the same thing applies to quads of a 13yo. Maybe not. That's what I'm curious to know. I think only specialized people could answer that question.
I don't want to believe that Eteri team would put their girls through that knowing that it's damaging and will not last till Senior years. So I'm optimistic.
But I would still like to hear a doctor's opinion on the matter.

how did Yuna not have the best environment for training? :think: what is the best environment for training in your opinion then if TCC with Brian Orser isn't one? i'm just curious

atsumiri · Aug 13, 2018

You can break something in a pool or just walk down the stairs.
You never know. It's a life.

rikaquegira · Aug 13, 2018

leoleo said:
how did Yuna not have the best environment for training? :think: what is the best environment for training in your opinion then if TCC with Brian Orser isn't one? i'm just curious

Yuna Kim came to TCC already with several injuries. She only had a great environment for training when she went to TCC in 2006.
And it took time for her to get healthy. Hence her poor performances during 2007 and 2008 season.

Watch · Aug 13, 2018

andromache said:
I love Raf, but it's a little hypocritical of him to criticize what the young girls are doing when Nathan was training quads young as well - and he has a ton of injuries to show for it. I do wonder if/how he limits Nathan's jump training to keep him healthy. It's possible he didn't always put limits on Nathan, but now he has? I'm assuming Raf has learned over time (as coaches do).

I thought the same thing. As sceptical as I am about girls doing quads, Raf's definitive claim that it's going to ruin their bodies and should be forbidden, while he himself coached Nathan to become the current quad wonder, rings false. I was a bit disappointed that the TSL guys softballed him on that one and didn't point it out to him and made him go more into detail. I highly respect Raf and think he's a great coach, but fact is, noone knows what effects this is going to have on Trusova long term - she's the first one and her talents should be recognized.

leoleo · Aug 13, 2018

rikaquegira said:
Yuna Kim came to TCC already with several injuries. She only had a great environment for training when she went to TCC in 2006.
And it took time for her to get healthy. Hence her poor performances during 2007 and 2008 season.

But her most serious injury, the one that lasted years and prevented her from jumping the loop jump was the lumbar disc herniation which was diagnosed in 2007 when she was already with Brian :think:

What i'm saying is it's hard to guess what will happen to Sasha's body but now she's doing fine. There are good & bad training conditions of course. Eteri girls get injured but every other coach has skaters who get seriously injured (Yuzuru has had so many injuries throughout his career). Gogolev for example is already jumping several quads at 13 (14?) and his body is definitely far from having completely grown but i've seen nobody saying he's gonna ruin his hips even tho Brian has had skaters with serious injuries before as well but people keep jinxing Sasha's injuries. I'm not an Eteri fan or anything, i actually am a Brian and TCC fan; i'm just side-eyeing the double standards. when it comes to Eteri, she has to be abusing her students and forcing them to jump quads even tho Sasha has said herself that she pushes for jumping quads more and more even when they say no. I'm not talking about you, just in case you think i am since i quoted you. Just people in general.

gkelly · Aug 13, 2018

Midori Ito was training 3A at 14-15:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6hKKVQ4gyc

Mao Asada at 12:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OjPddW9dDI

They may have had injuries related to that training, indirectly if not directly. If not, that doesn't mean that other skaters would not experience significant injuries as a result of training these jumps.

Every body is a little different, and every experience is a little different (even identical twins starting with the exact same training regimen would likely have different injuries).

sheetz · Aug 13, 2018

andromache said:
I love Raf, but it's a little hypocritical of him to criticize what the young girls are doing when Nathan was training quads young as well - and he has a ton of injuries to show for it. I do wonder if/how he limits Nathan's jump training to keep him healthy. It's possible he didn't always put limits on Nathan, but now he has? I'm assuming Raf has learned over time (as coaches do).

There was a time when relations between Raf and Nathan were a lot colder and my impression is that Nathan was disregarding Raf's coaching advice and overtraining his jumps, possibly with the encouragement of his mother. It was during that period where he got injured during the US Nationals gala and moved his training base to Michigan.

Sam-Skwantch · Aug 13, 2018

atsumiri said:
You can break something in a pool or just walk down the stairs.
You never know. It's a life.

I wouldn’t take the rabble rabble here too seriously. Sasha uses her motivation to do something amazing while some people use it to second guess people they’ve never met and make assumptions about their training. Speculating in thread after thread that everything nefarious is the most likely thing going on :bed:

mishulyia · Aug 13, 2018

Watch Yuna Kim’s documentary “A Lark Ascending” on YouTube. She mentions her less than ideal training conditions when training as a child. She never had properly fitting skates and properly aligned blades. She sometimes trained in Japan and marveled at the environmental rink conditions as opposed to what she had in S. Korea. She traveled with her mother and a massage therapist who would treat her back pain everyday. This was before she moved to Orser IIRC.

leoleo · Aug 13, 2018

mishulyia said:
Watch Yuna Kim’s documentary “A Lark Ascending” on YouTube. She mentions her less than ideal training conditions when training as a child. She never had properly fitting skates and properly aligned blades. She sometimes trained in Japan and marveled at the environmental rink conditions as opposed to what she had in S. Korea. She traveled with her mother and a massage therapist who would treat her back pain everyday. This was before she moved to Orser IIRC.

Well, maybe i'm wrong and her back issues already started long before moving to Orser even though she was officially diagnosed only after moving with him. Doesn't change the fact that many skaters have had career ending injuries from doing only triples. Scherbakova's injury from example had nothing to do with her training quads.

The right age to start training Quads?

MasterB

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atsumiri

leoleo

mishulyia

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atsumiri

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