Will judges be conservative? +5 Goe System. | Golden Skate

Will judges be conservative? +5 Goe System.

NymphyNymphy

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 26, 2017
Did anyone notice that back in the early days of IJS, judges were very conservative when it came to GOE's and PCS?

Looking at the 2007 World Championships, well executed elements got +1's with the occasional +2 GOE. No skater got a
PCS score above an 8. Last season practically every top lady was showered with +3 GOE and 9.5's in PCS. Were judges conservative back then because the system was new? Or did ISU push the judges to inflate GOE's for higher world records and therefore more media coverage?

Which brings me to the big question: Since the +5/-5 GOE system is considered a radical change by ISU (based on the fact that old records are now considered "historical"), will judges be conservative like they were at the start of IJS? Will we be seeing mostly +1's and +2's with the occasional +4's and +5's? Or will judges continue the inflated GOE train?
 

BillNeal

You Know I'm a FS Fan...
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
I think the real question for many posters is: will judges actually judge according to their own guidelines?
 

concorde

Medalist
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Yes and no. I agree we will see very few +4 and +5 but the reason is not that the judges are conservative. Rather, to get those numbers under the revised system, skaters have to hit 3 bullet points and only if all three of those bullet point are met can a judge even award a +4 and +5.
 
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
Was there a change in scoring standard?

Possibilities:

1) Completely new system: 6.0 (basically just ordinals) vs actually rating each element and component. Now they already have that "practice".
2) (For the women) Most of the favourites had left by that point, and new favourites were emerging, so they were figuring out how to go with the GOE/PCS. (Had to establish reputation first)
 

zounger

Medalist
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
Do we have Asian Open as an official ISU example so far? I don't think they were very conservative there. The opposite I will say, so I think this is how it will roll generally.
 

leoleo

Medalist
Joined
Jul 5, 2018
Judges will do anything they want without regard to the rules the ISU itself has created, as usual :confused2: I don't expect a change.
 

Andrea82

Medalist
Joined
Feb 16, 2014
At Asian Open Eunsoo Lim received 13 "+4" (3 by Todd Bromley, 3 by Tianyi Zhang, 1 by Akiko Kobayashi, 1 by Kylie Yacopetti and 5 by Albert Zaydman) and 1 "+5" (Tom Bromley) in the SP
In FS she got 1 +4 and 1 +5 by Bromley and 1 +4 by Zhang, 3 +4 by Yacopetti and 3 +4 and 1 +5 by Zaydman
Star Andrews got 3 "+4" (1 by Akiko Kobayashi and 2 by Albert Zaydman) in the SP

Peng/Jin got 11 "+4" (3 by Leah Bates, 3 by Eddy Wu, 4 by Todd Bromley and 1 by Jia Yao) and 1 "+5" (Wu) in the SP. In the FS they received 3 "+4" by Bates, 1 by Wu, 4 by Keen, 4 by Zaydman, 4 by Bromley, 6 by Yao, 3 by Kobayashi. And 2 "+5" by Bromley and 3 "+5" by Yao.
Bromley also scored 3 "+4" to Ryom/Kim (1 in SP and 2 in FS) and Yao and Keen gave them 1 +4

In Ice Dance, only a couple of +4 in the Tango (1 for Parsons and 1 for Wang/Liu).
In FD: 5 +4 for Wang/Liu (1 by John Millier, 2 by Albert Zaydman and 2 by Jia Yao)
Komatsubara/Koleto received 5 "+4" by Albert Zaydman
Parsons got 1 +4 by John Millier and 3 by Albert Zaydman

Zaydman then judged also at NRW Trophy in Ice Dance and he scored just 1 +4 (Tessari/Fioretti) but I think it was the only +4 given in that competition.

In Lake Placid, McNamara/Carpenter received 9 +4 in the FD: 5 of them coming from Eric Hampton, 2 from Kathaleen Cutone and 1 from David Munoz and Patty Klein
Parsons received 6 +4: 3 from Klein, 1 by Eric Hampton, 1 by Munoz and 1 by Cutone
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
Why should they be conservative? I don’t care if judges agree with me or not. As long as they are consistent and stand by what they believe are accurate numbers I really don’t care if they give 1’s, 4’s or 5’s.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
Yes and no. I agree we will see very few +4 and +5 but the reason is not that the judges are conservative. Rather, to get those numbers under the revised system, skaters have to hit 3 bullet points and only if all three of those bullet point are met can a judge even award a +4 and +5.

I seriously don’t know what they were thinking with this new weighting off 3 bullet points. Just look at how they have to award StSeq.

1) deep edges, clean steps and turns
2) element matches the music
3) effortless throughout with good energy, flow and execution

4) creativity and originality
5) excellent commitment and control of the whole body
6) good acceleration and deceleration

It just seems so unsporting not to let the judges assess how the skater performs and use that to determine the marks based on their strengths and weaknesses. Instead they are boxed into scoring based on a system which for some reason not provided says bullet 6)use of good acceleration and deceleration isn’t as important as bullet 3) effortless throughout with good energy, flow and execution. More importantly it doesn’t address the quality of bullet (6) vs the quality of bullet (3) in how they were executed in that very competition. These are decisions that a judge used to make based on the quality of performance in front of them.

If they don’t think bullet (5) is as valuable as bullet (2) maybe they shouldn’t even include it. How on earth did they determine “element matches the music” trumps “excellent control of the body” seems almost arbitrary and lacking any empirical data to support it. At least none was provided to my knowledge. Why though they believe all judges would or even should agree on this weighted scale shows a lack freedom and understanding for not only judging but of skaters and coaches to design programs that bring out their strengths and how the overall creative process even works.

The whole super bullet system probably won’t last long though IMO for very obvious reasons and then the system will change and people having gotten used to it will complain when tremdsxshiftvaway from what they once knew. Gird your loins :devil::drama:

- - - Updated - - -

That's a rhetorical question isn't it?

I’d call it a leading question :drama:
 

Ares

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Country
Poland
No, they won't because this is ISU and judges repeatedly don't do their job. I would like to be proven wrong but there are no new, major rules that would encourage being more insightful (like for technical panel) and to keep everyone to equal standards.
 

QuadThrow

Medalist
Joined
Oct 1, 2014
They will be conservative this season. Just to make sure noone complains.

But the points will rise. We will see a lot of +5s at the Olympics 2022 to get new high scores. This is what happened with the old system from 2010-2018.

From this point of view the old system was at the very end. Zagitova, Medvedeva, S/M, V/M and P/C pushed the scores to the maximum.
 

BillNeal

You Know I'm a FS Fan...
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
It’s good that the ISU tried to increase transparency by streaming Congress but I think they also further exposed how backwards some things are in that organization (the infamous USB drive debate for example). The SOV do try to award quality more but expectations for judging correctly are low not surprisingly (we need more Shin Amanos by the way :biggrin:).
 

yume

🍉
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
The answer is no. They are more than ready to shower skaters with +4s and +5s. There are already +4s.
 

Yatagarasu

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 29, 2015
Of course not. Looking what already got +4 the answer is absolutely, definitely no.

They'll be throwing candies all over the place.
 
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