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Thread: US Ladies, Hall of Fame- Post Kwan, Cohen

  1. #61
    On the Ice Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    In reference to my earlier point, here's a relatively recent article about Rachael (Flatt) and her PHD work at UNC.

    https://www.unc.edu/discover/rachael...source=Twitter
    Want to be impressed? Here is the Wikipedia page for Rachael's mentor, Dr. Cynthia Bulik.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynthia_M._Bulik

    Now do you really want to be impressed? Here is Professor Bulik with her pairs partner, David Tsai, winning the bronze medal at U.S. Adult Nationals in 2012.

    https://endeavors.unc.edu/wp-content...ce-skating.jpg

  2. #62
    On the Ice Mathman's Avatar
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    Speaking of Rachael Flatt ...

    Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen retired in 2006. Kimmie Meissner grabbed world gold the same year, but was almost immediately overtaken by Yuna Kim and Mao Asada as the next wave.

    But here comes the future! At 2007 Junior Worlds the U.S. swept the podium with Caroline Zhang, Mirai Nagasu and Ashley Wagner. Ashley, a year older and much taller, seemed more seniorish. But the next year the podium was Rachael Flatt, Zhang and Nagasu, Rachael having missed the previous season due to injury. Caroline Zhang especially was projected as the next star, having beaten the competition on the Junior Grand Prix circuit (in 2006-07) by as many as fifty points. Plus, she was a skating photographer's dream and appeared everywhere in U.S. skating publications that year.

    Still, it was Mirai who jumped into the lead and won the U.S. senior championship in 2008. Caroline did not make the transition to seniors smoothly. Mirai had her moments. Rachael was steady with three silver medals and one gold at the next four U.S. Championships. Both Rachael (7th) and Mirai (5th) had good showings at the 2010 Olympics.

    If silver were gold, Rachael would have 3 U.S. titles and 4 wins on the senior Grand Prix. (And Sasha Cohen would have two world championships and an Olympic gold medal.)

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    If silver were gold, Rachael would have 3 U.S. titles and 4 wins on the senior Grand Prix. (And Sasha Cohen would have two world championships and an Olympic gold medal.)
    If 10th place were gold, Mirai would have one Olympic gold medal, two world championships, one four continents title, and an additional national title on top of her real one.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I don't think landing one jump at one event should be enough for even a Nationals HOF in the US. What I think is most problematic about that is it opens the door to a lot of skaters feeling like they deserve to get in, as most of the top skaters in the last 10 years have superior H2H records against Mirai. Only once in her senior career did she have a season (2009-10) in which she was arguably the best US woman, and it hasn't been an especially deep field in the last decade.
    That is a somewhat dismissive and over simplified characterization of an 11 year senior career. Most unbiased observers would be impressed with a skater who can win a national championship at age 14, then a full ten years later, when most of her peers have long since faded, finish 2nd at nationals, get a spot on the Olympic team competition, and finish 2nd in the team FS with a clean 8 triple program over Gabby and Kostner before a world wide audience. Very few skaters in the HOF or anywhere enter the sport at the top and finish ten years later at a high level with an 8 triple FS. Sounds impressive to me.

    Then there is the 4th place at the Vancouver Olympics behind Yuna, Mao and the sentimental favorite home country lady. If a 4th isn't impressive, it's better than Meisner or Wagner finished in their Olympic appearances, (though Gold also finished 4th at Sochi).

    I also enjoyed the short program in the 2010 Worlds, with a lead in the SP over Mao and Yuna.

    Head to head matches take a lot of research. I will concede Wagner regularly beat Nagasu 2012-2016, But I also note Nagasu regularly beat Wagner 2008-2011, as did Flatt and Czisny.

    Then there are the 7 Nationals medals. Wagner has more, but Gold has less, Czisny has less, Meisner has less, Flatt has less, and a lot of people already in the HOF have less. I would say that is a HOF worthy career.

  5. #65
    Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset skylark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imagine View Post
    Why in the world would Gracie come next? This coming from one who stans Gracie and dislikes Ashley. Being "the face" of US skating is not an actual athletic accomplishment, and neither is existing as a "medal threat. " Now, when she beats her disease, comes back and wins some titles, then let's talk HOF. Ashley Wagner has all of Gracie's accomplishments and then some. IMO, she has been "the face" of US skating just as much as Gracie has this generation. Only issue with her is she doesn't know how to keep her ego in check, and has probably ruined her own reputation with USFS by acting like an entitled brat, including throwing a very generous opportunity of going to the World Championships back in their faces. Can't see them appreciating any of that very much.
    Ashley was 1st alternate for the World Championships. I don't know how you get "generous opportunity" out of that, much less "very" generous.

    At Nationals 2018, the judges held Ashley's PC marks down below what she'd been awarded by international judges during the 2017-18 GP season, for arguably lesser skates. This was unheard of. At the same time, Karen's and Bradie's PCS were bumped up. (not to mention Karen's uncalled URs.) Some may characterize Ashley's behavior as you did, but many others didn't and don't.

    But I do appreciate your beginning with a disclaimer, as being one who dislikes Ashley to begin with.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-man View Post
    That is a somewhat dismissive and over simplified characterization of an 11 year senior career. Most unbiased observers would be impressed with a skater who can win a national championship at age 14, then a full ten years later, when most of her peers have long since faded, finish 2nd at nationals, get a spot on the Olympic team competition, and finish 2nd in the team FS with a clean 8 triple program over Gabby and Kostner before a world wide audience. Very few skaters in the HOF or anywhere enter the sport at the top and finish ten years later at a high level with an 8 triple FS. Sounds impressive to me.
    You can have a good career and achieve things HOF skaters haven't, and yet still not deserve to be a HOF skater. A HOF career is a higher bar than merely an impressive career. Your argument is essentially she had two good seasons that were 8 year apart, and that makes her a HOFer. She hasn't had a single notable international result (individually); she's come in 4th at the Olympics and won a couple of GP silver medals, but that doesn't make someone a HOF skater.

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    Quote Originally Posted by b-man View Post
    That is a somewhat dismissive and over simplified characterization of an 11 year senior career. Most unbiased observers would be impressed with a skater who can win a national championship at age 14, then a full ten years later, when most of her peers have long since faded, finish 2nd at nationals, get a spot on the Olympic team competition, and finish 2nd in the team FS with a clean 8 triple program over Gabby and Kostner before a world wide audience. Very few skaters in the HOF or anywhere enter the sport at the top and finish ten years later at a high level with an 8 triple FS. Sounds impressive to me.

    Then there is the 4th place at the Vancouver Olympics behind Yuna, Mao and the sentimental favorite home country lady. If a 4th isn't impressive, it's better than Meisner or Wagner finished in their Olympic appearances, (though Gold also finished 4th at Sochi).

    I also enjoyed the short program in the 2010 Worlds, with a lead in the SP over Mao and Yuna.

    Head to head matches take a lot of research. I will concede Wagner regularly beat Nagasu 2012-2016, But I also note Nagasu regularly beat Wagner 2008-2011, as did Flatt and Czisny.

    Then there are the 7 Nationals medals. Wagner has more, but Gold has less, Czisny has less, Meisner has less, Flatt has less, and a lot of people already in the HOF have less. I would say that is a HOF worthy career.
    I'm not sure Nagasu is HOF material to be honest. Yes she has more National medals then Gracie but then she has been competing over twice as long as a competitor then Gracie has and managed to miss the podium as a Senior more often then not. Gracie on the other hand didn't finish any lower then 2nd in her first 4 appearances as a Senior and qualified for Worlds 4 straight years while Mirai has made the World team a paltry 3 times in a 10 year span and one of those World appearances was filling in for Polina Edmunds and Mirai was a non factor in many of those years.

  8. #68
    Medalist Imagine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylark View Post
    Ashley was 1st alternate for the World Championships. I don't know how you get "generous opportunity" out of that, much less "very" generous.
    As in they called her up to bat when Chen withdrew, and she was like...nah. I guess you’re right, it wasn’t necessarily “generous” of them, as she earned that alternate spot (and I definitely agree that is what she deserved), but it was an opportunity that she just tossed aside. I mean, it wouldn’t have been as bad if she hadn’t gone into her whole, oh yeah, I’ll just skate my program better at the next competition spiel literally seconds after coming off the ice at Nationals like...okay, well here’s your chance to do it. Where you at? I mean, thank god for Bradie-implosion-proof Tennell, but the US really could have used a skater of Ashley’s caliber on that night. I get it, she was pissed off at how she was scored at Nationals, but that didn’t stop her from accepting the alternate position in the first place did it? Of course, there might have been some legitimate reason for not going I’m sure, prior commitments, sponsorships, burnout, etc, but in the context of everything she herself said and the persona she had perpetuated, it just looked bad. Made her come off as very flaky and entitled. But hey, whatever. I love watching Mariah and it was cool that she got the spot. Ashley’s just one of those polarizing personalities. I do get that it all comes from a place of passion, but it’s become so offputting for me personally. You’ll never make me like her for her personality, but as long as she hasn’t clubbed anyone in the leg, I don’t necessarily hate her either. I have cheered for her as an athlete, and my countrywoman, and I will continue doing so in the future if she comes back...but sorry, still going to have to side-eye some of things she says and does. Objectively, she’s still the most accomplished skater the US has had this decade. I was just pointing out how her actions might not be seen in the best light in terms of being nominated for something like the HoF. But tbh, it’s kind of sad that Ashley (no offense) is the closest thing USFS has had to a star this generation. If we were to keep it real, none of them, Ashley, Mirai, or Gracie, really deserve to be in the conversation for any type of HoF. Sorry. And two of those skaters are among my all time favorites. But, I guess none of them are officially retired yet, so...we’ll see.

  9. #69
    Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset skylark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imagine View Post
    But tbh, it’s kind of sad that Ashley (no offense) is the closest thing USFS has had to a star this generation. If we were to keep it real, none of them, Ashley, Mirai, or Gracie, really deserve to be in the conversation for any type of HoF. Sorry. And two of those skaters are among my all time favorites. But, I guess none of them are officially retired yet, so...we’ll see.
    No problem. You're entitled to your opinions and free to express them.

    But I heartily, one hundred percent disagree with your contention that Ashley doesn't deserve to be (in good time) in the National Hall of Fame. And I like the fact that we can have a Shining Star for this generation who speaks her mind, stands up for herself and for others, skates as a woman, and is authentically herself, on and off the ice.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    I'm not sure Nagasu is HOF material to be honest. Yes she has more National medals then Gracie but then she has been competing over twice as long as a competitor then Gracie has and managed to miss the podium as a Senior more often then not. Gracie on the other hand didn't finish any lower then 2nd in her first 4 appearances as a Senior and qualified for Worlds 4 straight years while Mirai has made the World team a paltry 3 times in a 10 year span and one of those World appearances was filling in for Polina Edmunds and Mirai was a non factor in many of those years.
    Hi Jammers, I remember you as a Gold fan from at least 2013. If Mirai doesn't return, I may join you on the Gracie bandwagon.

    Mirai has been a senior for 11 years, has 7 medals which means she was on the 4 person USFS podium 7 times, or if looking at a 3 person podium, she would be a 5 time podium winner.
    Mirai was able to break into senior ranks at age 14, which Gold was not. I also note Mirai, as winner of Nationals in 2008, was entitled to go to worlds, but she was age limited.

    Gracie has 2 Golds and 2 silvers in 5 Nationals, a terrific record, and Gold also has a better record at worlds, and I am of the opinion both belong in the HOF.

    The reason for starting this thread was to introduce the possibility of ladies post Kwan/Cohen to be eligible for the HOF. My research showed most Ladies HOF members 1990-2005, with a few exception have Olympic Gold or World Gold. And those exceptions have multiple world silvers. Skaters post Kwan/Cohen are doing higher tech content, but due to increased international competition are not winning OGM or WGM. Poster Mathman advised me some disciplines have HOF members with far less international results than in Ladies.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-man View Post
    Hi Jammers, I remember you as a Gold fan from at least 2013. If Mirai doesn't return, I may join you on the Gracie bandwagon.

    Mirai has been a senior for 11 years, has 7 medals which means she was on the 4 person USFS podium 7 times, or if looking at a 3 person podium, she would be a 5 time podium winner.
    Mirai was able to break into senior ranks at age 14, which Gold was not. I also note Mirai, as winner of Nationals in 2008, was entitled to go to worlds, but she was age limited.

    Gracie has 2 Golds and 2 silvers in 5 Nationals, a terrific record, and Gold also has a better record at worlds, and I am of the opinion both belong in the HOF.


    The reason for starting this thread was to introduce the possibility of ladies post Kwan/Cohen to be eligible for the HOF. My research showed most Ladies HOF members 1990-2005, with a few exception have Olympic Gold or World Gold. And those exceptions have multiple world silvers. Skaters post Kwan/Cohen are doing higher tech content, but due to increased international competition are not winning OGM or WGM. Poster Mathman advised me some disciplines have HOF members with far less international results than in Ladies.
    if you look at the numbers, Gold's 5-year senior career is already more accomplished than Mirai's 11-year senior career. if you look at the numbers from what i posted earlier in the thread, Gracie has been 1st or 2nd 4 out of 5 trips to US nationals. She has one more gold over Mirai. She has 2 more Grand Prix medals and has won 2 golds, where Mirai has never won a GP. She's qualified to the GPF twice, Mirai has never. Gracie was on the world team 4 years in a row. Mirai has gone to the world championships less times in a career that is over two times longer, and Gracie has placed higher. Mirai has another olympics over her where she landed a 3A, but if you look at the bigger picture, Gracie has had more success in less than half the amount of time of Mirai's senior career. Gracie came on the senior circuit at an older age than Mirai, but if anything that only brightens what she's accomplished.

    Mirai Nagasu, senior career 2007-present (break 2018-2019 or retired)
    7 national medals, 1 is gold
    4 Grand Prix medals
    0 trips to GPF
    3 trips to Worlds, highest placement is 7th
    4 trips to 4CC, 3 medals
    2 trips to Olympics, 3rd place team (2018, no team event in 2010), highest placement is 4th

    Gracie Gold, senior career 2013-present (break from 2017-2018)

    4 national medals, 2 are gold
    6 GP medals, 2 are gold
    1 trip to GPF, placed 5th (qualified in 2014 but WD)
    3 trips to 4CC, highest placement is 4th
    4 trips to Worlds, highest placement is 4th (2015 & 2016)
    1 Olympics, 3rd place team, 4th place individual

    I still think Mirai's 3A performed at the olympics may be grounds for USFS to at least consider her for HOF, but outside of that i don't think she meets enough of the criteria. That's not to say her other accomplishments don't matter (she's been a huge star for US figure skating), but when you look at the numbers, Gracie 100% has it over her.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by macy View Post
    if you look at the numbers, Gold's 5-year senior career is already more accomplished than Mirai's 11-year senior career. if you look at the numbers from what i posted earlier in the thread, Gracie has been 1st or 2nd 4 out of 5 trips to US nationals. She has one more gold over Mirai. She has 2 more Grand Prix medals and has won 2 golds, where Mirai has never won a GP. She's qualified to the GPF twice, Mirai has never. Gracie was on the world team 4 years in a row. Mirai has gone to the world championships less times in a career that is over two times longer, and Gracie has placed higher. Mirai has another olympics over her where she landed a 3A, but if you look at the bigger picture, Gracie has had more success in less than half the amount of time of Mirai's senior career. Gracie came on the senior circuit at an older age than Mirai, but if anything that only brightens what she's accomplished.

    Mirai Nagasu, senior career 2007-present (break 2018-2019 or retired)
    7 national medals, 1 is gold
    4 Grand Prix medals
    0 trips to GPF
    3 trips to Worlds, highest placement is 7th
    4 trips to 4CC, 3 medals
    2 trips to Olympics, 3rd place team (2018, no team event in 2010), highest placement is 4th

    Gracie Gold, senior career 2013-present (break from 2017-2018)

    4 national medals, 2 are gold
    6 GP medals, 2 are gold
    1 trip to GPF, placed 5th (qualified in 2014 but WD)
    3 trips to 4CC, highest placement is 4th
    4 trips to Worlds, highest placement is 4th (2015 & 2016)
    1 Olympics, 3rd place team, 4th place individual

    I still think Mirai's 3A performed at the olympics may be grounds for USFS to at least consider her for HOF, but outside of that i don't think she meets enough of the criteria. That's not to say her other accomplishments don't matter (she's been a huge star for US figure skating), but when you look at the numbers, Gracie 100% has it over her.
    I see a lot of parallels in their careers. Both have a 4th place in the Olympics. What is fascinating, both won a short program in a World's competition against skaters considered the best at the time, Mirai over Mao and Yuna in 2010 and Gracie over Medvedeva in 2016. Another parallel is in Olympic team competition. Gracie finished a strong 2nd in the team FS in 2014, and Mirai had an incredible 2nd in the team FS in 2018, both helping their teams to a bronze.

    You say Mirai hasn't met the HOF criteria. As Mathman pointed out, we don't really know the criteria.

    Yes Mirai was only in 3 World's teams. She didn't get to go to world's as national champion in 2008, nor did she go in 2014 when finishing 3rd at Nationals with 3 spots available. If you want to say Gracies career is better, fine.

    My point being they are both among the best US skaters of their era, along with Wagner, maybe Meisner. Winning OGM or WGM no longer seems attainable like it was 20 years ago, although the skaters are doing content beyond that done 20 years Ago. The best skaters of every generation have been added to the HOF. Why not now?

  13. #73
    On the Ice Mathman's Avatar
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    It’s fun to look up the people in the Hall of Fame that I am not familiar with. For instance, Anne Gerli was a highly respected and influential figure skating judge and club official for 70 years (!)., although the sport she actually played was tennis. Mrs. Gerli died in 2016 at age 92.

    As for skaters who had a national presence, but no world or Olympic medals, there were no Olympics or World Championships from 1940-1946 because of World War II. Jane Vaughn (Sullivan) was the U.S. champion in 1941 and 1942. (There was a North American Championship in 1941, but as far as I can tell Vaughn did not compete.) She, too, also served as a figure skating judge ove5 a long career, and died in her 90s (94). Want to live a long life? Take up figure skating!

    Eddie Shipstad (died at 91) and Oscar Johnson were both charter members of the Hall (inducted in 1976, the first year of the Hall). They founded the first touring ice show, Shipstad and Jonson’s Ice Follies, in the 1930s., in which they were also featured as comedic performers.

    In principle, I suppose a skater to do something in their post-skating life that would be so spectacular that skating itself would bask in the glow. Maybe Racahel Flatt will win a Nobel Prize in Medicine for research into the treatment of eating disorders!
    Last edited by Mathman; 09-23-2018 at 04:19 AM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-man View Post
    My point being they are both among the best US skaters of their era, along with Wagner, maybe Meisner. Winning OGM or WGM no longer seems attainable like it was 20 years ago, although the skaters are doing content beyond that done 20 years Ago. The best skaters of every generation have been added to the HOF. Why not now?
    It has been a weak era for both ladies and pairs in the US. The Knierims probably have a superior competitive record than Mirai, with 2 US championships and a handful of 4CC/GP medals. Would you add them to the HOF?

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    It has been a weak era for both ladies and pairs in the US. The Knierims probably have a superior competitive record than Mirai, with 2 US championships and a handful of 4CC/GP medals. Would you add them to the HOF?
    I follow pairs the least among the four disciplines. It appears easier, less competition, to be a top pair in the US than a top lady. It also appears top US pairs in recent times have been less successful internationally than top ladies, men or dancers. It is easier to win a championship in a discipline that is less competitive. Mirai does have more nationals medals, more 4CC medals, more GP medals, higher Olympic placement, etc. Based on those observations, I would be less inclined to add the Knierims to the HOF. A couple more US championships could change their chances.

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