- Joined
- Jul 2, 2014
Because she's banned?
US Ladies, Hall of Fame- Post Kwan, Cohen
- Thread starter b-man
- Start date
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2015
I think Gracie isn't in the conversation because she is in the middle of a comeback. I would think that she would be in the conversation otherwise, but she's talking about 2022. Mirai and Ashley are likely done (although neither have confirmed that). But in ways Alyssa's Grand Prix Final win gives her more clout than Gracie as they both have two national titles and neither title is back to back. They are two of my favorites, so I'm thrilled if when the time comes that they are both inducted.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2011
agree with this. Ashley is 100% in the front when it comes to looking at wins, medals, accomplishments, etc. I think if Gracie has a successful next 4 years (consistently medaling on the GP, earning trips to the GP final/medaling there, consecutive trips to worlds and a possible podium berth, continuing to medal/win nationals) she should absolutely be in consideration as well by the time she retires. Here's some numbers on Alissa, Mirai, Gracie, and Ashley in their senior careers for comparison:
Alissa Czisny, senior career: 2004-2014
4 national medals, 2 are gold
8 Grand Prix medals, 3 are gold
3 trips to GPF, 1 gold medal
3 trips to 4CC, highest placement is 5th
4 trips to Worlds, highest placement is 5th
0 Olympics
Mirai Nagasu, senior career 2007-present (break 2018-2019 or retired)
7 national medals, 1 is gold
4 Grand Prix medals
0 trips to GPF
3 trips to Worlds, highest placement is 7th
4 trips to 4CC, 3 medals
2 trips to Olympics, 3rd place team (2018, no team event in 2010), highest placement is 4th
Gracie Gold, senior career 2013-present (break from 2017-2018)
4 national medals, 2 are gold
6 GP medals, 2 are gold
1 trip to GPF, placed 5th (qualified in 2014 but WD)
3 trips to 4CC, highest placement is 4th
4 trips to Worlds, highest placement is 4th (2015 & 2016)
1 Olympics, 3rd place team, 4th place individual
Ashley Wagner, senior career 2007-present (break 2018-2019 or retired)
10 national medals, 3 are gold
14 GP medals, 5 are gold
5 trips to GPF, 3 medals
2 trips to 4CC, 1 gold medal
7 trips to Worlds, 1 medal
1 Olympics, 3rd place team, 7th place individual
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2015
If we were anywhere but Golden Skate, it wouldn’t even be a question that Ashley is the most deserving. There is no debate to be had. No other American woman has had the results she’s had for the past 10 years. Gracie got the push by the fed but Ashley delivered the results.
Ashley, Gracie and Mirai also have Olympic medals.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2011
That's true, I will add in team medals. thanks
EDIT- for some reason i keep getting an error message when I try to edit that post that it is too short. Admins halp pls.
Nevermind, it works now :scratch:
Gracie isn't in the conversation because she is still competing. (I assume Ashley is retired. I think it's doubtful Mirai will come back
, but we'll see).
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
Based on this criteria, Gracie belongs there as well, since she is a US champion and Olympian as well.
(An argument could be made for Kimmie for being a World Champ, but come on, she won WGM at a very watered-down and weak WC. Mirai completed exactly one ratified 3A in international competition - which a huge accomplishment - but has little else to recommend her besides being a fan favorite.)
I guess I'm in favor of a pretty strict Hall of Fame though. That's just me.
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2005
I don't think its fair to Kimmie to basically say her WC Gold is diminished because of the field.
Sasha Cohen was at that same WC and finished third. Kimmie did very well there too.
Its not like she had a poor performance and won because others did worse.
IIRC her FS score was 125 and that was great at the time.
Kimmie also won a National Championship and the year before land a triple axel at Nationals.
I don't really remember Elaine Zayak - except for the Zayak Rule, but "on paper" Kimmie's career is similar.
I would consider Mirai also.
Her triple axel at the Olympics was a HUGE deal and even if it was her only ratified one, it is one more than the 99.9% of all other ladies in history.
She is also a 2 time Olympian, and possibly could have been a 3 time Olympian (at least she made a strong case for herself in 2014 with her Nationals performance)
I guess I'm not as strict, but I guess we will see eventually who gets in.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Kimmie Meissner is the most interesting case, to me. The United States has produced a total of thirteen ladies' world champions. All twelve who preceded Kimmie are in the Hall of Fame. To me, a world championship is a huge deal. You are the best in the world in your sport.
Otherwise, her career at the top was brief. Still, she got a creditable 6th at the Olympics as an up-and-comer, she won Four Continents the next year, and has four Grand Prix medals including a Skate America gold. I think she will make it.
Otherwise, her career at the top was brief. Still, she got a creditable 6th at the Olympics as an up-and-comer, she won Four Continents the next year, and has four Grand Prix medals including a Skate America gold. I think she will make it.
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2007
i meant next after Ashley.
Continuing with the list of successful US ladies 2005-Present, i'll list the final 4, one who has a chance for the HOF.
The first is Christina Gao. She made 4 Continents once, had a 4th place. Made the GPF once thanks to weak SA competition, and finished a distant 6th. She had 8 regular Grand Prix, earning a silver. At Nationals, she had four 5th place finishes in a row, followed with an 8th and 11th when her interests moved to Harvard.
Agnes Z. was in 4 continents twice, with a 6th and 8th. She had 8 GPs, earning a bronze. At nationals, she had 2 bronzes and a 4th. Money problems caused her to end her competitive career. She was a tall skater with big jumps.
Gold entered the senior scene in 2012-2013, She was a leader in the Sochi Olympics, getting a 4th, and finishing 2nd personally in the team skate earning a team bronze.
She has two 4th place finishes at Worlds, along with a 5th and 6th, all respectable. In World Team Trophy, She has two 3rds and a 5th personally. In one GPF she got 5th, while in regular GP's, she has a high percentage of medals, 2 golds, 2 silvers, 2 bronze in 10 entries. Her Nationals performances were competitive from her debut, alternating championships with Wagner from 2013 through 2016. She, along with Wagner, dominated US ladies 2013-2016. She, along with possibly Nagasu, was the most talented US skater of her era. Regardless of the success of her comeback, she has, IMO, already done enough for HOF consideration.
I find Edmunds a most interesting skater. She made the Olympic team as a first year senior, pushing past vets Nagasu and Wagner at the Boston nationals. She finished 9th at Sochi, and has two 8th place worlds finishes. She was at 4CC once and won, At Nationals, she finished 2, 4th and 2nd again in 2016 after a superb short, barely overtaken by a strong Gold FS. She then withdrew from 2016 4cc and Worlds with a bone bruise. With college conflicts and continuing bone bruise problems, she again WD from the San Jose FS. I am not sure if she is done, or will continue. She was one of the most confident US skaters ever, being totally unaffected by pressure.
Karen and Tennell are in the middle of their careers, and need to be looked at in the future.
The first is Christina Gao. She made 4 Continents once, had a 4th place. Made the GPF once thanks to weak SA competition, and finished a distant 6th. She had 8 regular Grand Prix, earning a silver. At Nationals, she had four 5th place finishes in a row, followed with an 8th and 11th when her interests moved to Harvard.
Agnes Z. was in 4 continents twice, with a 6th and 8th. She had 8 GPs, earning a bronze. At nationals, she had 2 bronzes and a 4th. Money problems caused her to end her competitive career. She was a tall skater with big jumps.
Gold entered the senior scene in 2012-2013, She was a leader in the Sochi Olympics, getting a 4th, and finishing 2nd personally in the team skate earning a team bronze.
She has two 4th place finishes at Worlds, along with a 5th and 6th, all respectable. In World Team Trophy, She has two 3rds and a 5th personally. In one GPF she got 5th, while in regular GP's, she has a high percentage of medals, 2 golds, 2 silvers, 2 bronze in 10 entries. Her Nationals performances were competitive from her debut, alternating championships with Wagner from 2013 through 2016. She, along with Wagner, dominated US ladies 2013-2016. She, along with possibly Nagasu, was the most talented US skater of her era. Regardless of the success of her comeback, she has, IMO, already done enough for HOF consideration.
I find Edmunds a most interesting skater. She made the Olympic team as a first year senior, pushing past vets Nagasu and Wagner at the Boston nationals. She finished 9th at Sochi, and has two 8th place worlds finishes. She was at 4CC once and won, At Nationals, she finished 2, 4th and 2nd again in 2016 after a superb short, barely overtaken by a strong Gold FS. She then withdrew from 2016 4cc and Worlds with a bone bruise. With college conflicts and continuing bone bruise problems, she again WD from the San Jose FS. I am not sure if she is done, or will continue. She was one of the most confident US skaters ever, being totally unaffected by pressure.
Karen and Tennell are in the middle of their careers, and need to be looked at in the future.
If the Hall of Fame Committee continues with their apparent policy of requiring OGM or WGM, or at least multiple world silvers for induction, they must realize it may be a long long time before another US lady enters the Hall. I don't see any US lady on the horizon earning world gold, so with present eligibility, and the time it takes to develop new talent, and the 5 year retirement rule, we may not see another US lady in the HOF until the 2030's in the sports most popular discipline.
If the committee recognizes that international competition has changed the playing field, they may want to modify their eligibility. Yamaguchi, Kerrigan, Tara, Kwan, Cohen etc. were the best of their generation. Wagner, Gold, Nagasu, Meisner etc. are the best of the next generation. I don't think the HOF would be degraded by letting them in.
If the committee recognizes that international competition has changed the playing field, they may want to modify their eligibility. Yamaguchi, Kerrigan, Tara, Kwan, Cohen etc. were the best of their generation. Wagner, Gold, Nagasu, Meisner etc. are the best of the next generation. I don't think the HOF would be degraded by letting them in.
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2014
Ashley and Kimmie belong in the Hall of Fame, and they are the only ones. Mirai landed the triple axel once well in compeition, but she abandoned emoting until she finished her last jump.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
It is not altogether clear what the criteria are, and in fact, I think that decisions are made on a case by case basis. For instance, Punsalan and Swallow are in, even though their highest finish at the Olympics was 7th and their highest finish in five trips to worlds was 6th. But they won U.S. nationals 5 times (8 medals altogether). And they deserve credit for being first U.S. ice dance team that attracted international buzz (or at least wuz-robbin') and paved the way for Belbin and Agosto and Davis and White. There is also a fairly large number of Hall of Famers in non-skating categories, such as service to the USFSA (or being cartoonist Charles Schultz or inventor Frank Zamboni
).In the past, for ladies there were never really any decisions to make. All of the ladies before Ashley who won three or more U.S. championships also had international credentials that made their induction no-brainers.
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It is not altogether clear what the criteria are, and in fact, I think that decisions are made on a case by case basis. For instance, Punsalan and Swallow are in, even though their highest finish at the Olympics was 7th and their highest finish in five trips to worlds was 6th. But they won U.S. nationals 5 times (8 medals altogether). And they deserve credit for being first U.S. ice dance team that attracted international buzz (or at least wuz-robbin') and paved the way for Belbin and Agosto and Davis and White. There is also a fairly large number of Hall of Famers in non-skating categories, such as service to the USFSA (or being cartoonist Charles Schultz or inventor Frank Zamboni
In the past, for ladies there were never really any decisions to make. All of the ladies before Ashley who won three or more U.S. championships also had international credentials that made their induction no-brainers.
Hi Mathman. I always appreciate your replies, as they are often grounded in logic and historical context. I researched US Ladies in the HOF from 1990 through Kwan/Cohen for this thread, and I didn't go back to Tenley Albright, Carol, Peggy, Or Maribel as I was trying to determine current practice for eligibility. I was aware of Charles Schultz. I confess I wasn't familiar with Punsalan/Swallow. Their international results are surprisingly less impressive than, not only the ladies in the HOF from 1990 to Kwan/Cohen, but also less impressive than many ladies I highlighted post Kwan/Cohen. I didn't research disciplines other than Ladies.
I tend to agree that induction of many past ladies were no brainers. That's no longer the case. I would appreciate your insight as to the eligibility of Wagner, Gold, Nagasu and Meisner. I think even Czisny and Flatt could be in the discussion, though other posters seemed to discount them.
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2018
I believe Kimmie Meissner will be next but in due time. Some skating greats have had to wait awhile. Look at David Santee. He skated in the early 1980's and wasn't inducted until recently. I noticed that Tiffany Chin hasn't joined the elite group either. She skated well at the 1984 Olympics, won 2 World Bronze medals, and was National Champion. Hope she'll get there.
As for Elaine Zayak, check her out on you tube if you don't know her (1981/1982/1984 Worlds, 1984 Olympic free program; 1994 Nationals). She is the one who brought in the triples for the women's field. She won all 3 National and World Medals; was in the 1984 Olympics; 2 time Olympic alternate in 1980 and 1994; 1984 Olympian. Glad she was finally inducted in 2003.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I was just looking at the Hall of Fame class of 1991. It looks like the USFSA made a decision that year to consider pairs skaters and ice dancers for the first time.
Besides the team of Tai Babilonia and Randy Gardner, an obvious choice, the Hall also reached back to Karol Kennedy and Peter Kennedy, who won five U.S. titles , a world championship and Olympic silver iin the post World War II years.
Most interesting to me was an ice dance team from the early 70s that I had never heard of, Judy Schwomeyer and James Sladky. They won 5 U.S. titles and 4 world medals (silver and bronze). Togetjer with their coach, Ron Luddington (class of '93), they invented the Yankee Polka.
Schwomeyer went on to become the puppeteer for Alice Snuffleupagus on Seseme Street.
Alice: https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...pagus_2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140226053849
Also in the class of 1991 is pioneer ice dancer Lois Waring and her second partner, Michael McGean, from the late 40s - early 50s.
Not to mention the separate inductions of Yvonne Sherman Tutt (who won two U.S. championships in singles and competed in both singles and pairs at the 1948 Olympics. She later became a judge and a prominent person in USFSA administrative circleS)...
...And William Thayer Tutt. William Thayer Tutt was a hockey player (he is in the U.S. Hockey Hall of Fame ) who later became a driving force for the USFSA and in promoting figure skating in general. He was responsible for moving the USFSA headquarters to Colorado Springs. (I wonder if his supporters and staff called him "King.")
________
Strangely missing from the Hall is Dr. Richard Porter, who is credited with inventing the sport of synchronized skating in the 1950s. I think we should start up a petition for next year. :yes:
Besides the team of Tai Babilonia and Randy Gardner, an obvious choice, the Hall also reached back to Karol Kennedy and Peter Kennedy, who won five U.S. titles , a world championship and Olympic silver iin the post World War II years.
Most interesting to me was an ice dance team from the early 70s that I had never heard of, Judy Schwomeyer and James Sladky. They won 5 U.S. titles and 4 world medals (silver and bronze). Togetjer with their coach, Ron Luddington (class of '93), they invented the Yankee Polka.
Schwomeyer went on to become the puppeteer for Alice Snuffleupagus on Seseme Street.
Alice: https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...pagus_2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140226053849
Also in the class of 1991 is pioneer ice dancer Lois Waring and her second partner, Michael McGean, from the late 40s - early 50s.
Not to mention the separate inductions of Yvonne Sherman Tutt (who won two U.S. championships in singles and competed in both singles and pairs at the 1948 Olympics. She later became a judge and a prominent person in USFSA administrative circleS)...
...And William Thayer Tutt. William Thayer Tutt was a hockey player (he is in the U.S. Hockey Hall of Fame
) who later became a driving force for the USFSA and in promoting figure skating in general. He was responsible for moving the USFSA headquarters to Colorado Springs. (I wonder if his supporters and staff called him "King.")________
Strangely missing from the Hall is Dr. Richard Porter, who is credited with inventing the sport of synchronized skating in the 1950s. I think we should start up a petition for next year. :yes:
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I just can't see Christina Gao and Agnes Zawadski being considered for the HOF without US championship gold.
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