BMI Adjusted Scoring for Skater Health

I thought a lot about this lately. I think the jump scores should depend on the skater's body mass index, if the skater is underweight. F.e. ski jumpers with a low BMI have to use shorter skis. Result? There's no talk about weight any more and as a result the ski jumpers got more athletic. Even the casual viewer can see that jumping is easier with a lower BMI, therefore the little girls have an advantage.
The point is - we all want athletes to be healthy, no matter how old they are and women need a little fat in order to be healthy. If a 14 year old girl is super thin and doing quads in senior competitions ... use a factor of .8 or .9 for the jump if her BMI is too low. She could compete on the senior level and even win competitions. But the older skaters wouldn't need to starve themselves because of her.

I would only implement this in senior competitons. I would probably draw the line at a BMI of 18, but figure skating experts and medical experts should eventually decide this. Skaters and coaches would need to prepare for this change, so a lead time would be needed, a couple of years would be necessary imo. I think that this would help young skaters to focus on good technique.
From the data I found on the internet this wouldn't affect a skater like Zagitova or Hanyu.
But a skater like Trusova would be affected. But with the amount of quads she's doing now she would still be able to win competitions, just not by a 20 points lead.

psusanne said:

I thought a lot about this lately. I think the jump scores should depend on the skater's body mass index. F.e. ski jumpers with a low BMI have to use shorter skis. Result? There's no talk about weight any more and as a result the ski jumpers got more athletic. Even the casual viewer can see that jumping is easier with a lower BMI, therefore the little girls have an advantage.
The point is - we all want athletes to be healthy, no matter how old they are and women need a little fat in order to be healthy. If a 14 year old girl is super thin and doing quads in senior competitions ... use a factor of .8 or .9 for the jump if her BMI is too low. She could compete on the senior level and even win competitions. But the older skaters wouldn't need to starve themselves because of her.

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Ohhh, so you mean, If i weight 100kg and have a BMI of 35, will my scores be multiplied by, lets say 1.5 or something?
What will happen to girls who are naturally thin, like Liz Tursinbayeva? She has a body of 10 years old, and very likely will remain like this, that is her build?


I already suggested this long time ago, and will suggest once more. Add the breast size as a scoring factor. It will make more sense, imho, and increase the entretainment value of the sport. I mean, imagine skaters throwing a tantrum because doping officials checked them before competition and found out they stuffed toiled paper in her bra in order to be allowed to compete?

I believe every sport has optimal human body type. Those athletes who have such body type probably have bigger chance to be succesful in the actual sports. But of course there are exceptions always

plushyfan said:

I believe every sport has optimal human body type. Those athletes who have such body type probably have bigger chance to be succesful in the actual sports. But of course there are exceptions always

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Case in point: Katarina Witt. A great athlete and jumper and also.. uh.. sought after by Playboy Magazine. I have little doubt that Katarina would have been capable of triple lutzes and triple-triple combinations if they had been necessary in her day.

psusanne said:

I thought a lot about this lately. I think the jump scores should depend on the skater's body mass index. F.e. ski jumpers with a low BMI have to use shorter skis. Result? There's no talk about weight any more and as a result the ski jumpers got more athletic. Even the casual viewer can see that jumping is easier with a lower BMI, therefore the little girls have an advantage.
The point is - we all want athletes to be healthy, no matter how old they are and women need a little fat in order to be healthy. If a 14 year old girl is super thin and doing quads in senior competitions ... use a factor of .8 or .9 for the jump if her BMI is too low. She could compete on the senior level and even win competitions. But the older skaters wouldn't need to starve themselves because of her.

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Yikes - I disagree with this most strenuously.

moriel said:

Ohhh, so you mean, If i weight 100kg and have a BMI of 35, will my scores be multiplied by, lets say 1.5 or something?
What will happen to girls who are naturally thin, like Liz Tursinbayeva? She has a body of 10 years old, and very likely will remain like this, that is her build?


I already suggested this long time ago, and will suggest once more. Add the breast size as a scoring factor. It will make more sense, imho, and increase the entretainment value of the sport. I mean, imagine skaters throwing a tantrum because doping officials checked them before competition and found out they stuffed toiled paper in her bra in order to be allowed to compete?

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I didn't suggest that heavy skaters should receive more points, only that underweight athletes should receive less. Tursinbayeva is obviously underweight, so yes, she would be affected by my suggestion. Athletes can do a lot with diet and training, she could always bulk up a little if she chose to do so and her health would benefit. I guess that this would also affect a skater like Hanyu, but he would win anyway when he's on.

I don't think that using the breast size as scoring factor would be practical ... just imagine 14 year olds getting breast implants because of it (it would surely happen!).


Sport can never be 100% fair, natural talents, body types, scoring systems etc. can give certain persons huge advantages .. I don't want to take that away, I only want that no one needs to suffer because of it.

lesnar001 said:

Yikes - I disagree with this most strenuously.

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I can accept that, I just don't understand why anyone would want to see underweight athletes. Probably you want to see how much they suffer for their success?

There is so much factors in sucess in sport, that body type only can't allow a skater to win. Training environnement, family situation, money, all of that contribute. So you can be small, thin, have the ideal body type but not succeed. So i don't see why those skaters should be punished. I don't see why a skater like Donovan Carillo should be punished. Or maybe only skaters from big feds should be punished?
More, you can be like Tursynbaeva or Miyahara but be less competitive than others because you lack power. See Miyahara tiny jumps.

yume said:

There is so much factors in sucess in sport, that body type only can't allow a skater to win. Training environnement, family situation, money, all of that contribute. So you can be small, thin, have the ideal body type but not succeed. So i don't see why those skaters should be punished. I don't see why a skater like Donovan Carillo should be punished. Or maybe only skaters from big feds should be punished?
More, you can be like Tursynbaeva or Miyahara but be less competitive than others because you lack power. See Miyahara tiny jumps.

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Did you mean my suggestion? I don't see how it should affect Carrillo, this year he didn't look underweight imo. Miyahara is a good example, she has already suffered from her too low body weight. Stress fracture. Low weight can have dramatic consequences for women. Bone density, no period, a few of those girls probably won't be able to have children.

psusanne said:

I didn't suggest that heavy skaters should receive more points, only that underweight athletes should receive less. Tursinbayeva is obviously underweight, so yes, she would be affected by my suggestion. Athletes can do a lot with diet and training, she could always bulk up a little if she chose to do so and her health would benefit. I guess that this would also affect a skater like Hanyu, but he would win anyway when he's on.

Sport can never be 100% fair, natural talents, body types, scoring systems etc. can give certain persons huge advantages .. I don't want to take that away, I only want that no one needs to suffer because of it.

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For some people gaining weight is almost impossible. It would probably be very hard to gain weight for someone like Elizabet. I know a person who eats a lot of fast foods, drinks a lot of soda and doesn't do any sports but she is still very skinny.

Also "BMI is a useful measurement for most people over 18 years old. But it is only an estimate and it doesn’t take into account age, ethnicity, gender and body composition"

Since you mentioned Hanyu as an example of a skater who would be affected by it... When you consider his weight, height, age, gender and ethic origin his SBMI is "normal weight". Even his standard BMI is within a norm

And how about disadvantages of very low body fat? Like being more prone to injuries. Yuzuru had so many injuries in his carrier. That's also one of the reasons why he can't train a lot. His training time is like 1/3 of other skaters' training time. And he has to work around it. Maybe he should get a bonus for having asthma because he has stamina problems. He "suffers because of this" in long programs.

Yoa said:

For some people gaining weight is almost impossible. It would probably be very hard to gain weight for someone like Elizabet. I know a person who eats a lot of fast foods, drinks a lot of soda and doesn't do any sports but she is still very skinny.

Also "BMI is a useful measurement for most people over 18 years old. But it is only an estimate and it doesn’t take into account age, ethnicity, gender and body composition"

Since you mentioned Hanyu as an example of a skater who would be affected by it... When you consider his weight, height, age, gender and ethic origin his SBMI is "normal weight". Even his standard BMI is within a norm

And how about disadvantages of very low body fat? Like being more prone to injuries. Yuzuru had so many injuries in his carrier. That's also one of the reasons why he can't train a lot. His training time is like 1/3 of other skaters' training time. And he has to work around it. Maybe he should get a bonus for having asthma because he has stamina problems. He "suffers because of this" in long programs.

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I wrote that what I suggested would probably affect Hanyu. I don't know his BMI (you do? and Hanyu is allowed to use medication for his asthma, to start discussing this would need a new thread) and I don't think that I have the knowledge to determine exactly which BMI should be considered to be too low, specialists should (medical and figure skating specialsts). I think we agree on the fact that for some it's difficult to gain weight, but at the same time it's even harder for some to lose weight. This judging systems favours light skaters who can rotate fast. That mostly favours young girls. That's why we have this age discussion. I think we shouldn't discuss age, but the reason why young girls fare so well under this judging system. And as you mention Hanyu's injuries - a little more muscle mass would probably help him to avoid injuries. But he probably wouldn't be able to do some of his quads. I wouldn't mind, he still would be great.
And I want to add that the best can always adapt easily to rule changes. I mentioned the example of ski jumping before and I'll do it again - no athlete complained and the coaches were happy with it (shorter ski length for athletes with low BMI). When you did look at the result pages you might have thought that nothing really changed, but when you looked at certain athletes you saw that something did change. And for the better.

psusanne said:

I wrote that what I suggested would probably affect Hanyu. I don't know his BMI (you do? and Hanyu is allowed to use medication for his asthma, to start discussing this would need a new thread) and I don't think that I have the knowledge to determine exactly which BMI should be considered to be too low, specialists should (medical and figure skating specialsts). I think we agree on the fact that for some it's difficult to gain weight, but at the same time it's even harder for some to lose weight. This judging systems favours light skaters who can rotate fast. That mostly favours young girls. That's why have this age discussion. I think we shouldn't discuss age, but the reason why young girls fare so well under this judging system. And as you mention Hanyu's injuries - a little more muscle mass would probably help him to avoid injuries. But he probably wouldn't be able to do some of his quads. I wouldn't mind, he still would be great.

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You can find skater's height in their ISU bio. NBC posted skaters' weight during Olympics: Hanyu's. Another source: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/pyeongchang-olympics/figure-skating/. And that's all you need to calculate someone's BMI: 57/(1.72*1.72) You don't even need to use special calculator. Ranges:
Underweight: BMI is less than 18.5.
Normal weight: BMI is 18.5 to 24.9.
Overweight: BMI is 25 to 29.9.
Obese: BMI is 30 or more.
And that's it. And to calculate SBMI you need to know that he is Asian, is 23 years old male and then input it into special calculator.

"a little more muscle mass would probably help him to avoid injuries" I doubt it would help. By doing that, he would decrease level of his body fat even more and then increase chances of injury. And he would be less flexible and that's one of his strengths. It's not like he doesn't have muscles. Most of his weight is muscular weight (vs 4-5% of body fat). Figure skaters have a lot of lean muscles. Even those little and slim ladies have very strong leg muscles, back and abs. They wouldn't be able to jump and do sit-spins otherwise. And like there are some people who have problems with losing/gaining weight, there are some people (ectomorph body type) who have problems with gaining muscles. They will gain muscles but only lean muscles, not well defined/bulky. They are often the same people who can't gain weight.

Yoa said:

You can find skater's height in their ISU bio. NBC posted skaters' weight during Olympics: Hanyu's. Another source: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/pyeongchang-olympics/figure-skating/. And that's all you need to calculate someone's BMI: 57/(1.72*1.72) You don't even need to use special calculator. Ranges:
Underweight: BMI is less than 18.5.
Normal weight: BMI is 18.5 to 24.9.
Overweight: BMI is 25 to 29.9.
Obese: BMI is 30 or more.
And that's it. And to calculate SBMI you need to know that he is Asian, is 23 years old male and then input it into special calculator.

"a little more muscle mass would probably help him to avoid injuries" I doubt it would help. By doing that, he would decrease level of his body fat even more and then increase chances of injury. And he would be less flexible and that's one of his strengths. It's not like he doesn't have muscles. Most of his weight is muscular weight (vs 4-5% of body fat). Figure skaters have a lot of lean muscles. Even those little and slim ladies have very strong leg muscles, back and abs. They wouldn't be able to jump and do sit-spins otherwise. And like there are some people who have problems with losing/gaining weight, there are some people (ectomorph body type) who have problems with gaining muscles. They will gain muscles but only lean muscles, not well defined/bulky. They are often the same people who can't gain weight.

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Thanks for the BMI calculating lesson. I don't trust those weight/height numbers. As long as nothing depends on those numbers they're often old or were never true. But if they are true Hanyu isn't underweight and my little unfinished system wouldn't affect him anyway. Men also need fat, but women need more of course. I don't doubt that figure skaters have good lean muscle mass. Muscle mass weights more than fat in comparison. And yes, there are different body types. That's not the point. Athletes with narrow hips have a big advantage anyway. I don't want to take away any natural advantage, my point is that athletes should be healthy and also that this sport should promote a healthy body image. Again, an athlete like Hanyu would probably win under any system, even if it was vastly different he could easily adapt, I have no doubt.

psusanne said:

I can accept that, I just don't understand why anyone would want to see underweight athletes. Probably you want to see how much they suffer for their success?

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I should have quoted only the first part of your post.
I disagree with scoring based on BMI

lesnar001 said:

I should have quoted only the first part of your post.
I disagree with scoring based on BMI

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So what would be your solution if you also don't want to see underweight athletes?

Scoring based on bmi would just make skaters more obsessed with their weight then they already are lmao

acapenci said:

Scoring based on bmi would just make skaters more obsessed with their weight then they already are lmao

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I guess I didn't make myself very clear - what I suggest would affect less than 1% of the skaters. For most of the skaters nothing would change. This thread is called "Age, and what we like to watch". I don't mind watching very young skaters, pre-puberty skaters competing against grown up athletes. But, I'll use my first example again, imagine a 14,15 year old super thin girl doing quads competing on the senior level. I would like to watch her but I don't think it's fair to give her the same scores for jumps as post puberty women and I think that the casual viewer would easily understand that. This girl would still be able to win competitions. Right now we have higher scores on the junior level than on the senior level. This shows how great those juniors are, but also that jumping is simply much easier for them. They are not the better technicians, or I should say, time will tell wether they are the better technicians, I doubt it. I think using the BMI as a factor could be a solution. But I don't think that it's the best and only solution, it's just a suggestion and it's not a brand new idea, it has been successfully used in Ski Jumping, that's why I brought this up here.

lesnar001 said:

I should have quoted only the first part of your post.
I disagree with scoring based on BMI

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A dude with a tape measure and a scale standing by the rink and measuring the skaters right before they are entering the ice - that’s the most absurd and ridiculous idea I can think of.
It should go together with the idea of eliminating a bias towards skaters by having the skaters performing in paper bags on their heads to hide their identities.

BMI is not an Accurate description of health- someone can have a higher BMI but have a lot of muscle and be visibly fit. Some people are naturally thinner, and with teenage athletes who are still growing that will vary hugely.

Anything that is based on weight is a terrible idea, many skaters are already focused on it in an unhealthy way.

If you wanted something that focuses on health bone density is a much better test but again, I would hesitate to put any firm limitations in place. What is better is developing environments where skaters are encouraged in healthy habits whatever size they are.

I would hate to see scoring directly based on body type in any way.

It is true that many skating skills -- including the ability to do multirevolution jumps, which are such a big part of singles skating -- tend to favor certain body types. So do flexibility moves. So do moves based on the aesthetic quality of the body positions. So does size difference between partners in disciplines that include lifts, especially pair skating. Etc. Some of the above are mutually exclusive (long legs might make for prettier spirals but more trouble jumping, for example. The height and upper body musculature helpful for male pair skaters is often unhelpful for their jumping, for another.)

To an extent, the disciplines evolved in directions that the most athletic best technicians who also had favorable body types were able to push the upper limits of what was possible. And often only a small minority of participants could boast the right body type along with the necessary athleticism and technique, and few others would ever be able to achieve the same results.

It's impossible to level the playing field entirely. Some athletes will just have natural gifts better suited to their chosen sport than others, and those who are most likely to excel, and excel to the point of continuing serious training into adulthood, will be those who are able to reap rewards for their efforts, especially if success helps them fund further training.

If some skills are best performed by athletes in a very narrow age window well before adulthood, then those skills will predominate at younger levels and be much rarer in senior age groups.

So should the sport define itself by valuing primarily those skills that can be achieved almost exclusively by skaters a few years before adulthood, or by athletes with very unusual body types? Or should skills that are more attainable by a wider range of athletes be given precedence?

Skating is a complex enough sport that there is room to redefine the priorities within the way the rules are written for what's required and what's rewarded, without having to write rules about what size and shape the skaters' bodies should be, or how old they should or shouldn't be.

There might be other reasons for restricting young minors from competing at the highest levels.