Top five skaters/pairs of each discipline ever?

Crossover said:

Why since the 1980s?

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Well, I guess to artificially restrict it in a manner.

1. I, myself, don't know how to weigh the achievements of, say, Dick Button, who did push the sport with his spins and jumps, but not the kind of programs we have now. However, until recently, we were getting new quads and quad combos with the men, which can be compared to Kurt Browning's achievement, and 3As in the ladies' field are still rare, to throw some perspective on Midori Ito's.

2. I don't think the quality of programs in terms of cohesion and concept was that present before the 1980s, although a friend says choreographers and choreography became more of "a thing" for FS in the early 1970s. This mattered in trying to set a restriction, because my judgement of achievements includes delivery of programs and performances.

3. Existence of videos. Although one can argue I simply haven't tried hard enough, which would be a very fair point

I'll edit my OP though. Should be fun to see what all-time lists some come up with.

Man some of you guys are putting this through a full on math equation (no hate here, respect tbh)

Now for my Men's list. I've been thinking about how to weigh everything, so my placements might be controversial, but whatever. Skating prowess in programs + performances weigh more for me than delivering at a championship (maybe 3-5, and definitely 4-5, could go any way for me although I feel a bit more sure about this order; I'm 100% sure about 1-2 though). Again, since the 1980s, with favorite performances linked.

1. Alexei Yagudin: The amount of skating prowess he had in his programs at his best was prodigious, as was his execution of any and all choreographic highlights, but what really sets him apart is the almost overwhelming amount of soul he used to bring into his performances. Gladiator is amazing. Winter and Man in the Iron Mask are probably the best pair of Olympic performances from a man, and also two of the best performances ever. In an overall singles' list, I would place only Kwan in front of him.

2. Kurt Browning: He has the happiest feet ever, his skating skills are my standard for how they should be used choreographically, his jumps were absolutely phenomenal when he hit them, his charm on the ice was wonderful, and there was that first quad ever. Unfortunately, his jumps often caused him to be inconsistent. Still, here's Casablanca, and his comedic interpretation of Meditation.

3. Stéphane Lambiel: He has multiple programs that are well choreographed, and his artistic delivery of them was very good, however I don't think he ever had the perfect blend of technique and artistry. Excellent spins, and great skating skills, but jumps were sometimes just not delivered to the same quality in a great program like Yagudin did, for instance. Here's Poeta, though.

4. Daisuke Takahashi: His best artistic performances were amazing. His best technical skating was amazing. I don't particularly think he accomplished both at the same time, though. Here's Swan Lake!

5. Yuzuru Hanyu: I think he has great skating prowess. However, I also think he missed out on expanding himself and his range several times over the last quad by repeating programs too many times, and I think his programs apart from Romeo and Juliet at 2012 Worlds are not choreographed amazingly well (nor is his delivery of them always amazing), which is where he loses out, and I do think he could have been a lot better had he been trained outside the CoP. Moreover, I don't think his LP performance at 2014 OWG was good, although the OGM was deserved. He can definitely do a lot of technical stuff in his programs very well, and, at his best, he does have the capability to bring a certain amount of command into his performances to give a good blend of the technical and the artistic. I think his Hope and Legacy at 2017 Worlds was great (and I'd take it any day over Seimei), but still the best performance for me from him was the 2012W LP.

For the record, 6. is Plushenko. I left him out because Hanyu is a better version of him, IMO, with more difficulty and more soul, although Plushenko has his own command and entertainment factor. Brians Orser and Boitano have been left out, even though they delivered some good performances and Orser has his name to go along with making the 3A "compulsory" in the men's field, and there are also people like Ilia Kulik who had beautiful jumps to go along with some great skating. The men's list was pretty hard to make.

chopinskate said:

5. yuzuru hanyu: I think he has great skating prowess. However, i also think he missed out on expanding himself and his range several times over the last quad by repeating programs too many times, and i think his programs apart from romeo and juliet at 2012 worlds are not choreographed amazingly well (nor is his delivery of them always amazing), which is where he loses out, and i do think he could have been a lot better had he been trained outside the cop. Moreover, i don't think his lp performance at 2014 owg was good, although the ogm was deserved. He can definitely do a lot of technical stuff in his programs very well, and, at his best, he does have the capability to bring a certain amount of command into his performances to give a good blend of the technical and the artistic. I think his hope and legacy at 2017 worlds was great (and i'd take it any day over seimei), but still the best performance for me from him was the 2012w lp.
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Uuuuuuuuuuuggghhhhh!!!! How dare you!!!!
I understand though.

For Virtue and Moir they have 1 olympic silver and no Olympic bronze medals

I am going to come in again, without the , to praise the skaters of yore.

Although I certainly appreciate the work that has gone into some of this research, medals, jumps and such are a very arbitrary way to measure greatness and impact on the sport.

The Roman Army was one of the greatest armies in history. Period. And it matters not if some small country with a small army today, with today's weapons, could have destroyed them in one hour. They are still the greater army.

In sports, Roger Bannister is one of the greatest distance runners. It matters not if high school milers today could beat his times, he is still one of the greatest milers, and the lower times don't mean those runners are "better".

So, the list of greats should include (and when I say "you", I mean no one in particular, but that whole great figure skating fandom)


men

Toller Cranston : Do you marvel at broken leg sit spins? I do. Thank Toller. Do you enjoy seeing men in costumes other than fake tuxes? I do. Thank Toller. Do you enjoy choreography, a complete program with a theme and with highlights and with splits and with spirals and playing to the audience and the judges rather than setting up for jumps. I do. Thank Toller.

He barely one Olympic bronze. He revolutionized men's figure skating in a way that jumping four quads in a program never will.

women

Janet Lynn The entire set up of all of figure skating today is due in large part to Janet Lynn. Her ability to mesmerize the audience is apparent even in those older videos.

Again, she barely won bronze. Yet she revolutionized figure skating. You are watching short programs because of Janet Lynn.

Ice Dance

Torvill & Dean

Have you watched any ice dance *before* T&D? Their impact on ice dance is immeasurable. The only reason V&M or other those other initials skate the programs they do today is because T&D changed and challenged the sport. By the 80s, the sport of figure skating had changed, and their efforts were rewarded.

I did not watch the Protopopovs that closely (shame on me) so others must explain their impact.

And that is why even today, medals, I like them, but :confused2: jumps, in a well integrated program fine, but :confused2:. Not the final standard.

el henry said:

Although I certainly appreciate the work that has gone into some of this research, medals, jumps and such are a very arbitrary way to measure greatness and impact on the sport.

The Roman Army was one of the greatest armies in history. Period. And it matters not if some small country with a small army today, with today's weapons, could have destroyed them in one hour. They are still the greater army.
...

And that is why even today, medals, I like them, but :confused2: jumps, in a well integrated program fine, but :confused2:. Not the final standard.

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Thanks for the list, but I didn't say that though? Nothing is a final, ultimate standard here, and it is very hard to compare across different eras, and everything carries a different weight. You mention Cranston inventing spin positions, but how much weight does that carry over Dick Button getting the Camel into the men's field? How much weight does Cecilia Colledge get for inventing the layback? Who invented spirals in the first place? You are also using some arbitrary standard for getting a list up. I am merely truncating to a time-frame, so I can judge performances for placements, and I guess I assign more weight to the ladies and men who tried out the jumps (which are a part of skating) that are the standard for the two fields at large to this day. Since "art" is a huge part of the sport IMO, well, actually delivering cohesive programs in a meaningful manner is also a standard for me, and since you spoke of innovation, well, innovation in choreographic highlights, movement, interpretation, expression, and using the free skating moves invented by the skaters of yore also should carry weight.

chopinskate said:

Thanks for the list, but I didn't say that though? Nothing is a final, ultimate standard here, and it is very hard to compare across different eras, and everything carries a different weight. You mention Cranston inventing spin positions, but how much weight does that carry over Dick Button getting the Camel into the men's field? How much weight does Cecilia Colledge get for inventing the layback? Who invented spirals in the first place? You are also using some arbitrary standard for getting a list up. I am merely truncating to a time-frame, so I can judge performances for placements, and I guess I assign more weight to the ladies and men who tried out the jumps (which are a part of skating) that are the standard for the two fields at large to this day. Since "art" is a huge part of the sport IMO, well, actually delivering cohesive programs in a meaningful manner is also a standard for me, and since you spoke of innovation, well, innovation in choreographic highlights, movement, interpretation, expression, and using the free skating moves invented by the skaters of yore also should carry weight.

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I truly was not trying to downplay or denigrate anything that anyone had said (that's why I said I was putting away the ) just offering alternate explanations. I know sometimes it is hard to watch Toller do a single axel, and think, well what's so great about that:scratch3:

Just my attempt at history

yume said:

Uuuuuuuuuuuggghhhhh!!!! How dare you!!!!
I understand though.

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I had to be objective. I prefer Takahashi at his best to Lambiel's style of skating, and I think I can say that for Hanyu (although I'd really like to see a perfect vehicle for him again before doing that), but that'd be a biased assessment.

As I said, 1-2 are correct IMO. After that, I have to take in the bodies of work, since none of the remaining three successfully combined it all together all the time. Lambiel had some phenomenal spins (maybe one of the best spinners of the men's field), and great skating skills, and well choreographed programs, and Poeta is excellent. He goes third. Between Takahashi and Hanyu, Hanyu was the first to land the 4Lo, has more difficulty, and has some cool transitions into and out of skating elements and an amazing performance in his 2012WC LP, whereas Takahashi is a wonderful performer, had great step sequences, and better choreographic quality in general. It was close there, and it's why those two can theoretically go either way for me, but Hanyu's smaller body of work in terms of interpretation loses out.

Looking at moriel's mathematical approach (which is very nicely put together), just an idea to throw in: I also like longevity as a credential very much as it simply speaks volumes of a skater when they are consisently good for many years. However,

a) many skaters did continue for so long because they hadn't got earlier what they wanted (extreme examples on both sides: Hughes vs Savchenko)
b) it was a longstanding trend - especially in dance - (and it may even be true today to some degree) that some skaters 'had to wait their turns' (e.g. Torvill/Dean cycle - Bestemianova/Bukin cycle - Klimova/Ponomarenko cycle - Grishuk/Platov cycle etc.), until which point they only got silvers or bronzes and when one skater/team ended their career, everyone else 'stepped' one position ahead

So for example (and it it is really just an example), Bestemianova/Bukin might be ahead of Torvill/Dean in a mathematical sense (both teams have 4 Worlds and 1 Oly, but B/B have 4 World silvers and 1 Oly silver, too), but let's not forget B/B never beat T/D during the latters' competitive years. However, it is also true that judges clearly favored T/D over B/B during their rivalry and scoring was very different back then = it's not necessarily objective to say one skater/team is better then another only due to the fact that a very conservative judging system (and skating ideology) favored A to B.

Trivial, but it's very hard to do a comparative study in the case of figure skating.

Longevity is good, but only if they have the body of work to go with it, IMO. Otherwise, Plushenko would be on my list.

chopinskate said:

I had to be objective. I prefer Takahashi at his best to Lambiel's style of skating, and I think I can say that for Hanyu (although I'd really like to see a perfect vehicle for him again before doing that), but that'd be a biased assessment.

As I said, 1-2 are correct IMO. After that, I have to take in the bodies of work, since none of the remaining three successfully combined it all together all the time. Lambiel had some phenomenal spins (maybe one of the best spinners of the men's field), and great skating skills, and well choreographed programs, and Poeta is excellent. He goes third. Between Takahashi and Hanyu, Hanyu was the first to land the 4Lo, has more difficulty, and has some cool transitions into and out of skating elements and an amazing performance in his 2012WC LP, whereas Takahashi is an wonderful performer, had great step sequences, and better choreographic quality in general. It was close there, and it's why those two can theoretically go either way for me, but Hanyu's smaller body of work in terms of interpretation loses out.

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I understand. Yuzuru became the master at recycling in the last quad, and was less motivated to explore. David Wilson killed all the passion he had before moving to TCC with those two free programs very CoP designed. Buttle's and Shae's work revamped some fire but yes R&J1 still above. But still, Yuzu is not that bad compared to the others you mentionned, really.
Very objectively, he should be at least in the top 3.

chopinskate said:

Longevity is good, but only if they have the body of work to go with it, IMO. Otherwise, Plushenko would be on my list.

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For me, it has to go with the country too. Otherwise it's not fair to take longevity in account, as skaters don't have the same chances to skate in international competitions in every country.

:luv17:

Yagudin is fire.
That's why my short list is extremely short.

Yet Browning, Takahashi are warm. It is interesting, that Takahashi is going to compete again.

yume said:

For me, it has to go with the country too. Otherwise it's not fair to take longevity in account, as skaters don't have the same chances to skate in international competitions in every country.

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A storm might come if you say this I somewhat agree. I think this is now a different era of skating, perhaps, in terms of field depth. I do think talent makes a LOT of things easier (Mao is just not someone who had any troubles getting out of Japan Nationals, although the field is even deeper now, sure), but yeah, longevity can have a lot of * marks next to it. In a way though, amazing performances and a huge level of talent might fish you out of spots even if you belonged to countries with deep talent pools, so that somewhat takes a precedence to me, anyway. (and there are pros and cons, where skating in a country with less of a history with FS might see you judged poorly and work longer for reputation plus perhaps fewer resources in that country, as opposed to if you were from a larger skating country, but yeah)

chopinskate said:

A storm might come if you say this I somewhat agree. I think this is now a different era of skating, perhaps, in terms of field depth. I do think talent makes a LOT of things easier (Mao is just not someone who had any troubles getting out of Japan Nationals, although the field is even deeper now, sure), but yeah, longevity can have a lot of * marks next to it. In a way though, amazing performances and a huge level of talent might fish you out of spots even if you belonged to countries with deep talent pools, so that somewhat takes a precedence to me, anyway. (and there are pros and cons, where skating in a country with less of a history with FS might see you judged poorly and work longer for reputation plus perhaps fewer resources in that country, as opposed to if you were from a larger skating country, but yeah)

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Yeah. But that's mostly when you're from a basically newborn federation, with no funding at all, you have to do crowdfunding, and people from your country don't even know that figure skating is a sport. That's the case of SEA skaters for examples.

Yuna Kim and Kostner did not have to work longer to get good reputation, so good PCS. At 2005 worlds, Kostner got almost the same PCS than Kwan who was already a legend, in both SP and FS.

Yuzuru is my no.1 I love his versatility~! Remember seeing PW in Sochi and then he kept surprising me with Chopin, Seimei then H&L and LGC! And when I saw Notte Stellata in Skate Canada...Wow! SO many different kinds of styles. *_* I don't see any skaters with his 'style', reminds me of Takarazuka theatre. Even when he does warhorses there's something different about it, like POTO and RJ2. I don't know if this is the right description for it, but his takes on them are often cerebral vs literal. Like, he can be Christine AND the Phantom at the same time because he's embodying the story itself rather than playing a character. And not like he can't do character-based programs either, his Romeo (RJ1) and Seimei are phenomenal.

Ladies: Yuna and Mao are so special to me and I miss them. :sad46:

That was a difficult task. I was thinking in what way I should approach it if I need to pick only 5, and decided to go in the chronological order. My main criterion is "the brigthest talent of his era".

- 40-50' - Dick Button. At first, I wanted to name a five post-1980 as many already did but then realised I can't omit Button. I read about him and it looks like he really helped to shape new era of figure skating. I don't know how to judge artistic side of his skating (as there were obviously very different standards for this) but I don't think a talent that pushed the sport so much from where it was before him can go without mention.

- 80' - Scott Hamilton. Tough decision since there were also Brian Orser and Brian Boitano, also amazing skaters. But I chose Hamilton because he went practically undefeated for all of his career and was a really great performer.

- 90' - Kurt Browning. First quad jump and iconic programs. 90' were pretty much definied by him and Elvis Stojko but I feel like he is better skater than Stojko overall.

- late 90' - oo'. Evgeni Plushenko and Alexei Yagudin. I'm cheating but I can't really separate these two because to me it looks like it was their rivalry, one of the greatest in this sport, that definied late 90'-early 00 and brought figure skating to a new century. Obviously much can be said about each of them, with Yagudin having very bright competitive career and some legendary programs, and Plushenko being technical overlord and having greatest competitive mind. And what's the most important, I feel like a lot of male skaters currently competing were inspired by both or either of them.

- 10' - Yuzuru Hanyu. He looks like a pinnacle of skating atm. Like he is the best overall that FS has to offer after century of development. Great jumps, technique, spins, ss, artistry, musicality. Not to mention staying on the highest level for four whole years and constantly pushing himself and sport forward. Hard to say without the perspective of decades but he has such a visible presence in this sport I doubt it will be forgotten.

If I had to pick the best not based only on their legacy and talent but also on their skills then, of course, list would consist of recent and current skaters and look like this

-Yuzuru Hanyu
-Patrick Chan
-Alexei Yagudin
-Daisuke Takahashi
-Stephane Lambiel

These are the best and most balanced overall, imo. Each has their weak spots but all of them manage to combine great technical prowess, great artistry, and all of them have their fair share of medals.

I omited so many great skaters.. All in all, I don't think it does the sport justice to pick only 5 people but it was fun to think about!

Atlantis said:

- 10' - Yuzuru Hanyu. He looks like a pinnacle of skating atm. Like he is the best overall that FS has to offer after century of development.

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Great line.:agree:

chopinskate said:

Ladies (after the 1980s):
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We pretty much have the same top 5, although my ranking will be:

1. Michelle Kwan
2. Midori Ito
3. Yuna Kim
4. Mao Asada
5. Lu Chen

While I find most of Lu Chen's performances and interpretation to the music exquisite, Yuna's and Mao's programs can also rival hers. Their best programs are also better than Lu Chen's best for me. I'm also giving them the edge because of how demanding the technical side was when they were competing and to still be able to perform and interpret exquisitely despite the COP constraints is something I will also put into consideration. Even so, it's just me nitpicking; with these 5, only Kwan is someone I can objectively say deserve the top post.

chopinskate said:

1. Alexei Yagudin
2. Kurt Browning
3. Stéphane Lambiel
4. Daisuke Takahashi
5. Yuzuru Hanyu[/URL].

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Agreed on this list. Although Lambiel and Takahashi are interchangeable for me. More often Takahashi had better choreography than Lambiel and was able to perform them better than Lambiel too. I agree though that Takahashi wasn't able to achieve his best artistically at the same time he delivered his best technical showing. But his body of work is testament of his versatility as a performer and how the ice rink is a stage.

I'm thoroughly happy to see Kurt Browning in the list too. His Meditation, as you referenced it, is genius.

Atlantis said:

That was a difficult task. I was thinking in what way I should approach it if I need to pick only 5, and decided to go in the chronological order. My main criterion is "the brigthest talent of his era".

- 40-50' - Dick Button. At first, I wanted to name a five post-1980 as many already did but then realised I can't omit Button. I read about him and it looks like he really helped to shape new era of figure skating. I don't know how to judge artistic side of his skating (as there were obviously very different standars for this) but I don't think a talent that pushed the sport so much from where it was before him can go without mention.

- 80' - Scott Hamilton. Tough decision since there were also Brian Orser and Brian Boitano, also amazing skaters. But I chose Hamilton because he went practically undefeated for all of his career and was a really great performer.

- 90' - Kurt Browning. First quad jump and iconic programs. 90' were pretty much definied by him and Elvis Stojko but I feel like he is better skater than Stojko overall.

- late 90' - oo'. Evgeni Plushenko and Alexei Yagudin. I'm cheating but I can't really seperate these two because to me it looks like it was their rivalry, one of the greatest in this sport, that definied late 90'-early 00 and brought figure skating to a new century. Obviously much can be said about each of them, with Yagudin having very bright competitive career and some legendary programs, and Plushenko being technical overlord and having greatest competitive mind. And what's the most important, I feel like a lot of male skaters currently competing were inspired by both or either of them.

- 10' - Yuzuru Hanyu. He looks like a pinnacle of skating atm. Like he is the best overall that FS has to offer after century of development. Great jumps, technic, spins, ss, artistry, musicality. Not to mention staying on the highest level for four whole years and constantly pushing himself and sport forward. Hard to say without the perspective of decades but he has such a visible presence in this sport I doubt it will be forgotten.

If I had to pick the best not based only on their legacy and talent but also on their skills then, of course, list would consist of recent and current skaters and look like this

-Yuzuru Hanyu
-Patrick Chan
-Alexei Yagudin
-Daisuke Takahashi
-Stephane Lambiel

These are the best and most balanced overall, imo. Each has their weak spots but all of them manage to combine great technical prowess, great artistry, and all of them have their fair share of medals.

I omited so many great skaters.. All in all, I don't think it does the sport justice to pick only 5 people but it was fun to think about!

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some real good points. The only issue I have about Scott Hamilton When he won his olympic gold he was clinging by a string and by 1984 worlds he was really done even making errors. Orser was the far better skater technician and maybe even artist . If it were not for school figures Hamilton would not have won.Look at his world skate and he even made errors = he was almost a Trixie Schuba.