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3-5 are mostly interchangeable for me. If Yuzuru becomes the first to land the 4A, he'll shoot up over these two, though.
Browning's great.
Top five skaters/pairs of each discipline ever?
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3-5 are mostly interchangeable for me. If Yuzuru becomes the first to land the 4A, he'll shoot up over these two, though.
Browning's great.
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Yeah, I have though about it, that's why I didn't really know what to do with these three. I think point can be maid for each of them, and in case of Orser by the standards we have today (no compulsory figures) he may have been the strongest after all. There are also his 3As he was throwing like nothing. I decided to go with the old requirements but maybe I shouldn't, considering I talk about legacy and figures are well in the past. As I said, a tough decision, I might want to rethink it.
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This thread became "who are my favorites" again. 
And the posters looking for ideologies why they are the best.
I really believe there are factors, aspects wich define the "top" term.
-victories, results- I really believe this is the most important in sports
-records
-innovations
-originality
-longevity- I believe, yes!
-impact on the sport
- ..........can you help me?
I don't know who is the best but I know Evgeni Plushenko must be among the top 5 and who takes him/herself seriously put Plushenko name there.:yes:
He is the most medalled skater ever, he has many golds, records. And that is not just mathematics, those were great performances and those were highly regarded by the judges and the audience! I don't know a vocational reason why he is not in the 5.
Lambiel..he is a lovely skater yes, but he lost to Plushenko 27 points at OG and he wasn't closer never! He had no 3A, and he wasn't a great jumper.
and 30-40 years time when anybody will read the Fs history. Totally irrelevant what we are thinking now. Everything will be clear. :agree:
And the posters looking for ideologies why they are the best. I really believe there are factors, aspects wich define the "top" term.-victories, results- I really believe this is the most important in sports
-records
-innovations
-originality
-longevity- I believe, yes!
-impact on the sport
- ..........can you help me?
I don't know who is the best but I know Evgeni Plushenko must be among the top 5 and who takes him/herself seriously put Plushenko name there.:yes:
He is the most medalled skater ever, he has many golds, records. And that is not just mathematics, those were great performances and those were highly regarded by the judges and the audience! I don't know a vocational reason why he is not in the 5.
Lambiel..he is a lovely skater yes, but he lost to Plushenko 27 points at OG and he wasn't closer never! He had no 3A, and he wasn't a great jumper.
and 30-40 years time when anybody will read the Fs history. Totally irrelevant what we are thinking now. Everything will be clear. :agree:
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This thread became "who are my favorites" again.
When one is in love, objectivity somehow becomes a four-letter word.... and it's really impossible to be honest about why we fall in love (as my mum used to put it "the moon gets in your mind's eye") So we all muster arguments that bolster what we actually think we objectively believe...
I mean further up the thread someone criticised Yuzuru's smaller body of work, though I could (and do) insist that even with less individual programs he's shown a wider range than other skaters with far more but rather more samey programs (and no, I am not going to name names because that would start another bunfight), and to be honest, all of his different performances of Chopin (his two inches of ivory worked on with a fine brush) alone are more unique and bear more rewatching than the said others
Other people definitely would say that's my mind's eye.
This sort of thing - and Plueshenko's and Javi's inimitable connection with the audience, which lifts even a lesser performance - and the 'musicality' of this that or another skater which some people gush over and others look 'whu?' is totally subjective. The only thing you can point to objectively is scores, records and medals, except that in a judged sport........
In 30-40 years' time most of the ones we love and acclaim will be as famous as... the people Dick Button beat. Nature of the beast.
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This thread became "who are my favorites" again.
Well, not really. Here is what you said:
I believe my top 5 men had/have all that, or most of it. Longevity, IMO, in a sport which consists of judging programs, should take into account what kind of programs and skills they still displayed. And, as I said, in a sport where the judging is often controversial, I'd rather judge what they put onto the ice. Is this subjective? Perhaps. No less subjectivity is creeping into determining medals through the flawed use of the judging system however.
Lambiel was a better spinner. Lambiel usually had better programs choreographically. Points are points. If you can justify why he deserved those 27 points, go ahead.
That's your objective opinion? IDK. A comforting thought, perhaps, but too rosy. There's an objective standard to reach before it goes into the realm of subjectivity. Not even a mother says a middle school Schubert is better than the real deal. I tried to not play favourites with the women, otherwise Yuna Kim would be 1), and Mao Asada would be 2). I tried not to play favourites with the men, otherwise Takahashi and Hanyu would both be a spot higher, and Lambiel would fall off in favour of Kulik, or perhaps Boitano. Probably Kulik. Plushenko wouldn't be sixth.
There are too many things to take into account, and well, for me, choreography, interpretation, and performance take a huge precedence, and combining the technical and the artistic to create a full picture. That's the standard I hold the sport to. I believe it is what it should be at its best, it's an intriguing concept. Of course, one can say that this is how favourites are chosen as well, or how choreography and performance are merely subjective (I have never believed so, not to a full extent; there's the music, and there's the dance), but then there are other measures that need to be weighed. Yagudin utterly dominated the scene when he was a part of it. Goes 1). Browning did the first ever quad. He goes 2). So on and so forth.
Different people weigh different things. Subjectivity maybe does creep in. I don't particularly care about the medal and points, the judging is too awful. I don't care for the way there's just too much stuff in programs now, or how grotesque the spins look, I don't think the choreography or interpretation is great that way, and the performance suffers from trying to cram too much stuff in, instead of aiding the best from the skaters. Several people agree there. A view of the skating, the sport, but not necessarily the skaters. Others disagree with this view of the sport, and the skating. To them, it's not objective anymore.
Just a task I'd set for myself some time back, and I did say I'd love to see how the others weigh things (which is also subjective -- although I will always disagree with merely looking at the medals and not what happened during the competition, lest someone say Lycasek was a great skater). I set the constraints I typed out at the beginning of my post for my own Men's list (same holds for the ladies' as well -- the Pairs and ID I simply haven't watched enough of to even form such a list), and I tried to judge according to them, and tried to do so objectively. I do think Yagudin put the most soul into his performances, most consistently, for instance. Not a (full-on) commentary on the skaters or their abilities, merely what they did, or what they've done thus far.
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Yep,
that's my 'objective' opinion about pretty much anything that involves people making judgements rather than simply (as in, say swimming and track) counting quantifiable numbers. Like in literature, music (do NOT start me on the relative merits of my favourite composers! or the relative standing of Shakespeare throughout the centuries), art etc etc... yes, there are objective elements (but given that I have noticed the same spin or jump or program getting not only very different marks but completely opposing opinions on this very board, forgive my mild skepticism) but too much of it is down to the individual, and we don't know our own leanings and biases so don't always know when we're being subjective anyway. There's also the undeniable fact that tastes and ideas on what is good (especially in things like artistry, choreo, musicality) change and people in 50, 70, 100 years will wonder - for some skaters - what the hell we were thinking on these points, but will still agree and love some others, who prove to be timeless.Objectivity is relative, as you said, it's what we each place emphasis on and what we see as good and bad in each of those placements. That doesn't mean we shouldn't argue the merits of the tangibles and intangibles, I know of two skaters for whom I in my stillanewbie status didn't see much to impress me but reading more experience people here and elsewhere is teaching me to appreciate what they do more (doesn't inspire a particle of love, but appreciation will do).
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This sort of thing - and Plueshenko's and Javi's inimitable connection with the audience, which lifts even a lesser performance - and the 'musicality' of this that or another skater which some people gush over and others look 'whu?' is totally subjective. The only thing you can point to objectively is scores, records and medals, except that in a judged sport........
Yes. But :
2 OG golds ( one of those team but tough)
2 OG Og silvers
3 WCH golds, 1 silver, 1 bronze
7 ECh golds, 3 silvers
4 GPF golds,2 silvers 1 bronze
18 GP golds,3 silvers
10 Rus Nat golds
If you want to understand these results he started to compete in seniors at his 15 but he was out of podium ONE time, he was 4th at WCH ( he was 17) He was the youngets male skater ever who received the perfect 6.0 for his presentation! He was 16 and it was at NHK Trophy. He received 75, most of them are presentation marks and he had more than Michelle Kwan's. Probably he has place next to Dick.
He was the first who landed in 4-3-2 and 4-3-3 combos, who was the first male skater who did Bielmann spin. I don't want to list his records in marks.
Well, not really. Here is what you said:
bad try to find ideology
Lambiel was better spinner but Plush was better jumper and more consistent by far. Probably Plush received more points for his jumps' quality. That is not my business. But Lambi was behind Plush with these points all the time. He had better programs..Well, this is very subjective..You have no idea how much love the people the Godfather LP, the Nijinsky LP, the Bolero, Adagio, or the Tango and flamenco SPs of Plushenko.
.
Sure.
I don't want to start the Yagudin thing again. He didn't dominate..of course he could beat the 15-16 y.o boy on major competitions but he had problem with Plush from the beginning. He also couldn't beat the olders at his 15-16.. right? Plushenko started to beat him at his 17 ( If we don't see the Rus Nats. I don't know why but that post was deleted when I answered Plush beat Yagudin clearly in technic at Rus Nats not because he was the Russian Fed's fav. LOL) Plushenko's energy, innovations persecuted him to a sports psychologist.( what is not problem but fact and shows who were the stronger.)
Yag received 6.0s in his last season but Plushenko started to collect at his 16 and he received much more. This is fact, again.
nice try again..
Yes, you did a list and we reacted.
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This thread became "who are my favorites" again.
Imo the thread is going pretty good so far with many establishing quite nice principles to go with. I can only speak for myself but, for example, I listed Witt among the top 5 who is very far from being among my favorites.
Btw:
Sorry but...that's not correct? He was out of podium six times in his senior career: 96 Finlandia, 96 CoR, 96 & 97 RusNats, 97 GPF and 00 Worlds.
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Are you joking????
You are talking about a 13 and 14 y. o. boy! He was born in November 1982! This is the most ridiculous thing what I have read in this forum! I understand you want to diminish his results but this is too much! He was his first ECH 1998( he turned 15 2 months before) and he won silver , after that he was his first WCH and won bronze. Can you tell me another skater who could do it? No.Since 1998 he was out of the podium one time in 2000 WCH. He cried a little bit in K&C. He had every chance to beat him he beat Yag at ECH already he landed in 4-3-2 in competitions. But he failed.
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This thread became "who are my favorites" again.
Any ranking that takes into account interpretation, artistry and choreography cannot really be objective anymore - because what people see as artistic or good choreography differs so much. It falls back into personal preference ranking again. For example there are certain so called artistic legends that I will never get, while there a certain "robots" that I find their program to be endearing, but that is just my personal taste. The thing is PCS is supposedly to be based on these subjective factors, so this sport was never an objective sport to start with.
All one can list out is certain skaters have more medals than other skaters in a certain era, and go down in history as more successful under the rules and judging trend of that era (which can indeed be full of bias, something which the sports will always have and we will forever be angry about). Whether skater A deserves the medal more than skater B is again a subjective question. You will always find arguments for both sides
BTW I find it interesting that past skating legend's achievements are often not questioned despite they didn't jump multiple quads and triple combo because they were not required to at that time (but the bigger factor is because they have lots of medals to back-up that status). But modern skaters not only have to do difficult jumps, but are also expected to have the same performance level as skaters from the past with much easier content and breathing spaced (when half of time they have to focus on landing the next crazy jump), to have choreography that fits the music perfectly despite their choreographic freedom is limited by COP rules and CoP savvy coaching teams. And on top of that need to not injure themselves despite doing more risky programs or otherwise their longetivity is in question. They really do have it a lot tougher these days.
In any era the skater than manages to combine the artistic side and technical side the best is the best skater in that era. But to combine art and technique when you are jumping triples and doubles is of a totally different game to when you jumping multiple quads and triple combos. Its like comparing apples and oranges, such that its difficult to be objective about it.
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Really? And yet, there are multiple programs that a vast majority of people will immediately say are "poorly choreographed", "poorly performed", or "poorly interpreted". It's not hard to judge what the skater is doing -- just have a look at the their impulses, making an effort with the choreography, whether or not they're responding to the music, filling in the music, whether the movement works with the music. Still subjective? Sure, there might be slightly differing opinions about what might work better for an already good program. There's still a good amount of objectivity that can be brought around there.
I find it interesting that several skaters are called more artistic than the past legends, and as having better programs, despite this being acknowledged. So, sure, given what you are saying, the current ones show more difficulty because it's required. Past ones had more breathing space and could show better artistry. What do you weigh more? Are you sure you're being objective there, and not giving a leeway? In converse to what you said, are you sure the past skaters wouldn't be able to do the exact same things the current ones were doing if they simply had to? And injuries existed back then, too. Of course, with Midori, she was already doing CoP type programs, although with less convoluted spins and footwork. Better jumps, though. Are you sure the skaters didn't feel the athletic impact on their bodies back then because of the "simpler" content they attempted, what with the technology that existed back then? Several men jumped larger back then, for instance, too. Is that better than the packed-tight content now, or worse?
Anyway, it really is a subjective sport. Would Browning doing/learning how to do a 4T and perfect technique +3Lo combos in the late 1980s be more difficult than someone doing two 4Sals, one in combo, in the late 2010s, with better technology, coaching methods, and other advancements? Hard to know.
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I have to disagree with your opinion about Scott Hamilton being almost like Trixie Schuba. Yes Orser won the SP and LP at the 1984 Olympics over Hamilton, but I think Scott placed second in both segments. While he may not have been the artist or jumper that Brian O was he was far from a lumbering, boring skater. Hamilton skated with great speed and his footwork was difficult and fast, and usually brought the audience to its feet with strong applause.
Now if you want to say Hamilton is not one of the top figure skating analysts of all time, I will agree completely.
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To give you an example, when Alina initially had POTO and Carmen as her programs, the 'majority' opinion was poor Alina stuck with warhouses, the choreography is soooo bad, someone save Alina. And now after her first two competitions its OMG Alina is so Christine and Carmen, the programs suits her really well Eteri really knows what she is doing. If say, Evgenia suddenly kills her programs in the next competition, it will become Wilson IS the king, fire Daniil !!. When the majority opinion just sways around like that I don't know what is the objectivity in it. So is Alina a good skater and is this a good program because she is, by some opinion bringing the choreography alive? or is she a bad skater because the choreography is just designed to gain points under the CoP system and, does not have, by some opinion, logical music cuts? I don't really have an objective answer to that. I for one enjoy the program as it is.
Hence, why I said in an earlier post I wouldn't compare number/difficulty of jumps either, because technology and judge's preference have changed.
I am in no way giving a leeway to anyone. I didn't say past skaters are more artistic, just they have more breathing space to perform. or that they are lesser skaters because of less jumps. There are both past and modern skaters that I find more artistic, in different ways, and it won't necessarily be the same as the next person.
I don't weigh technique and artistry one more than the other - hence why I said the best skater in each era is the one that marries artistry and technique the best in a given era. I don't like programs that is only a jump fest, nor do I like ones that are only a poses after poses too. Each era has different sets of rules to construct a program and different minimum requirement for difficulty to get on the podium. Under that requirements, there are skaters that are more artistic than another, and there are certain preferences by the majority to certain skaters on that matter. But then to compare skaters of different era when they are not doing the same level of difficulty or constructing programs under the same rules, is difficult, because as you said, you don't know what one skater would be like if he/she had been competing under a different era.
The only thing that is comparable across era is that the skaters are fighting for medals. Hence, why despite judging bias, that is still the only common factor. And if we have to go by majority opinion, I can't think of a single skating legend, both past or present, that doesn't have a large number of medals. It doesn't have to be all gold, but a good quantity of them.
If I am comparing skaters of the same era , then I will consider choreography, interpretation, musicality too etc - but with that I will admit there is my personal preference being involved. But comparing across era, I could only look at medals, and if that is not objective either because of judging bias, then it is indeed a subjective sport.
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Is there even a question that FS is a subjective sport? I went back to look at this thread, and you know that there is not a single person that was mentioned on everyones list? Not a single one. Even Kwan wasn't on every ladies list even though she is probably the skater whose achivements are the most acknowledged. Anyway, I don't think we should stop sharing opinions and stop trying to be objective as it helps us to see different sides of something and gain some new knowledge. Probably such questions are even interesting in the first place precisely because there is room for subjectivity.
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I believe Elvis Stojko landed in first quad combination in competition
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Okay
Is this for me?
in 1996 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRZoZWEzCYQ
in 1996 CoR https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf39A-lquM8 look at his costume
he is a senior skater who missed the podium"If you want to understand these results he started to compete in seniors at his 15 but he was out of podium ONE time..." ------>I correct myself--------> he started to compete in seniors at his 13 he was in GPF at 15 and one month later on his first ECH won silver. After that he was out of the podium ONE time in 2000.
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Eh, I don't know. At this point, people are familiar enough with David and Daniil's work to know what they're going for, and there's flexibility in interpretation of course, but I see that as comparable to acting. Many different actors can approach playing the Joker but there's still a common canon they're working out of. When Alina first debuted the programs and they weren't coming together, it was still mostly clear what the choreography was meant to do. Even now, people note she's not timed with the music on her jumps yet. People know where she's supposed to be and what image of Carmen she's trying to convey (Witt-esqe). I still don't think the programs suit her that well. Just like I don't think David's choreography really suits Evgenia. She could end up skating Libertango competently and I would still feel that way.
Sometimes hitting the marks in the choreography is just hitting the marks and nothing else. It doesn't guarantee that the skater is connecting to the music or interpreting it well. Sometimes the original vision of the choreographer is bad. Sometimes it's an interpretation problem from the skater. Over time it gets easier to tell when it's empty program composition vs. an empty-feeling skate. To be honest, there are times when discussion about PCS feels more objective than TES.
No.Is this for me?
Nothing against Plushy, i think he's a great athlete.
I was just running away from the war you started.
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