How much falling is too much falling? | Golden Skate

How much falling is too much falling?

wobblepro

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
So, after last week's bad fall and subsequent trip to urgent care---no breaks, but MAN do rib injuries hurt!---I find myself wondering how normal it is to fall while learning to skate. Loved ones have taken one look at my ribs and said "If you're falling so much" (I fell badly 2 months ago as well) "maybe you should find another sport". I have no idea if they're right. How often does a "normal" person fall? I am working on Basic 4-6 techniques and will probably pass Basic 4 at next week's test. I've been skating 3 months now, 7-10 hours a week, and fall about once every couple of weeks. My impression is that other folks of all levels fall way more, but also do not fall as badly. Do I just need to learn to fall properly in order to avoid injury? Or is falling every couple weeks a sign that I'm not really coordinated enough for this?
 

treesprite

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
According to my coach, if you aren't falling, you aren't learning anything new. That said, when I was a kid I almost never fell until I was working on axels, at which point I fell a million times. Then, as n older adult who isn't doing anything I didn't learn as a kid, I fall maybe twice a year and it is always for some stupid thing, not because of working on something new. Falling is a part of learning harder skills, so don't worry if it is happening unless it starts happening when you are not on the ice.
 

VegMom

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
You definitely need to learn how to fall. A coach can work with you on that topic specifically. My skater’s coach did it right after an ice cut, said it was easier and less painful to fall on clean ice.

Only you can decide ‘if it’s worth it.’
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
You need to learn to fall properly so you don't hurt yourself too badly in the future. Also, look into padding while you skate.

Good luck! :)
 

Nimyue

On the Ice
Joined
May 15, 2018
Hahahaha....

I'm an adult in my 30s. I fall multiple times every time I skate. Lutz and axel are the most common culprits, but I'll fall backwards off a landing often enough on any jump really. Also the click of death on crossovers still gets me, but that one is super embarassing. Land a very high Loop, Loop combo, then fall doing crossovers... fantastic...

But I don't really get injured when I fall. I'm pretty good at falling and sliding. My hips and butt take most of the impact, and they can handle it. You need to learn how to fall. Tuck your chin to chest when you fall backward, don't put your hands out when you're falling etc etc. Landing on the knee is the absolute worst and something I'll still do on occasion. At times my knees are as bruised as my kids'.
 

silver.blades

Medalist
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Country
Canada
With the amount you're skating and the amount you're falling, you're definitely not falling too much. I agree with the posters above that if you never fall, it means that you're taking things too easy. Learning how to fall can help, but that said, it's worth taking a look at how you are falling, the reasons you're falling and the kinds of skills you're working on when you fall, especially if you tend to fall hard. For example, if you are falling because you're constantly tripping on your toepick then you should work on picking your feet up more and proper pushing with the blade to minimize the amount of falls you take.
 

vlaurend

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 14, 2008
I think the real issue is not how often you're falling but how bad your falls are. There are some basic principles of figure skating that you need to learn in order to keep your body aligned over the ball of the skating foot and if you aren't aware of those principles, you are going to have bad falls. I was thinking about that just today when recounting my first experience with back cross strokes. My pushing off foot slipped forward and I fell backward and hit my head, resulting in a big splotch of blood on the ice and stitches for me. I now understand that it happened because I wasn't using enough ankle bend and I wasn't keeping my chest over my knee over my toe while doing these. But at the time, I was in a group class and nobody had explained those very important basic principles. I now have bad falls only due to factors out of my control, like my camel spin entrance edge hitting a deep rut or divot from a triple lutz pick. I'd recommend getting a private lesson with a really experienced coach who did school figures and teaches moves in the field and asking that the entire lesson be on correct body position and balance point on the blade when going forward, backward, turning, etc.
 

hanyuufan5

✨**:。*
Medalist
Joined
May 19, 2018
Agreed with the above-mentioned points that you probably just need to learn to fall better, and that if you're never, ever falling, you're probably not learning anything new.

Definitely ask your coach about this.

I see multiple falls per freestyle session. At one extreme, there are people who go months before they can do a certain jump without falling. At the opposite extreme, I can't remember ever falling on a jump in my life (knocks wood), but that might change once I get good skates and can stop worrying that if I really give it my all on a jump, my ancient rental blade will snap off and lodge in someone's head.

Also, everyone had a different idea of what a bad fall is. The same injury could send A to urgent care, B to the ER, and make C quit, while D gets right back up and keeps skating, then goes up to his/her friend the next day and says, "Hey, check out this gnarly bruise! :biggrin:"
 
Joined
Mar 2, 2018
...Tuck your chin to chest when you fall backward, don't put your hands out when you're falling etc etc....

I was only taught "do not fall backwards" and not how to minimize impact from a bad backwards fall (I am very good at falling properly when falling forwards!!), and I am typing this with my left wrist in a cast, so thanks for the tip. :laugh: I knew I wasn't supposed to stick my hand out but my instinct was only "save the head, save the tailbone" so I threw my weight sideways....and stuck out my hand like an idiot. Time for private lessons? Hahaha

If it makes you feel better, OP, I also had family suggest I should find a new sport (they would like me to do yoga instead--which is all well and good but not at all my thing). Avoiding injury is all well and good, skating safely is a must, but avoiding something you love because you might injure yourself once in a blue moon...I don't know, I don't feel like that's really living, you know?
 

narcissa

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 1, 2014
I have the opposite problem...I don't fall enough but I don't know how to make myself fall more, maybe by going faster into things? I definitely feel like if I fell more I would improve faster.
 

wobblepro

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
Thanks ya'll. Glad to hear (well "glad" may be a bit strong lol) that falling is normal and that I could even stand to fall more often. Most of my falls have been while doing something arguably stupid, or at least a bit overenthusiastic. Like trying to do rapid 2 foot turns across the ice to see if something like chaines or soutenus in ballet are possible in ice skating (tailbone). Or trying to do single leg spins immediately after learning two foot spins (tailbone). Or trying to see if going a lot faster would allow me to pull off my first forward inside three turn (ribs). The rest are from catching my blade on rough patches of ice or those little ice stalagmites formed by condensation dripping onto the rink. My coach says I have good balance and a good sense for edges for someone of my level---we agree it's probably from ballet training---but that I will start falling a lot more as soon as I complete LTS and really need to learn soon how to do so without injury. I'll ask her to show me how to fall properly as soon as my ribs heal. Hopefully that will be soon... I bruised them 2 weeks ago and still can't breathe deeply without feeling like I'm being stabbed with a tiny knife. Basically I fell forward, didn't want to land on my hands or face, and so arched my head and arms back and essentially belly flopped on the ice.
 

jf12

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Basically I fell forward, didn't want to land on my hands or face, and so arched my head and arms back and essentially belly flopped on the ice.

I hope when you come back you get some protective gear! IMO everyone in LTS should start wearing a lot of padding until they're comfortable with falling. More advanced skaters falls are typically a lot more controlled and predictable than the falls of beginners, it's not at all similar in terms of how much you can hurt yourself.
 

wobblepro

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
I hope when you come back you get some protective gear! IMO everyone in LTS should start wearing a lot of padding until they're comfortable with falling. More advanced skaters falls are typically a lot more controlled and predictable than the falls of beginners, it's not at all similar in terms of how much you can hurt yourself.
This is actually to do item #2 today, right after getting fitted for new pointe shoes: look up protective gear (preferably that doesn't make me look like I'm going to the roller derby lol).
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Like trying to do rapid 2 foot turns across the ice to see if something like chaines or soutenus in ballet are possible in ice skating (tailbone).

Don't try to do them on the toepicks at this point -- they're not designed for turning on the ice the way the blades are, or the way ballet shoes are.

What I have seen skaters doing is kind of jumping from toepick to toepick with a half turn between each. I have tried, but it's a little too scary for me to put in a program. You will gain speed that you will need to glide out of at the end (if you don't fall before you get there). It's probably safest to make the exit a back outside landing edge. Are you comfortable with that yet?

My coach has also had me do something that she calls chaines but are really more like pique turns, only on the full blade, not the toe. Basically a quick forward outside three turn, step immediately to back outside edge of the other foot, step immediately to forward outside to start the next turn.

At this point, you're probably better off focusing on learning the skating turns and the knee action to make those work well, which is completely different from how you use your knees (and feet and ankles) in ballet. Softer knees will make for softer falls, if you can develop that skill.

Or trying to see if going a lot faster would allow me to pull off my first forward inside three turn (ribs).

I find I need to learn turns slowly before I'm brave enough to try them at speed. Of course you have to have some glide to make them work. But it's probably wise to work your way up to adding more speed.

The rest are from catching my blade on rough patches of ice or those little ice stalagmites formed by condensation dripping onto the rink.

Watch out for those! Are they all over the rink or can you try to stay away from the areas where they tend to form? Tends to be more of a problem in the summer, so hopefully they'll go away soon.

Good luck with the falling lessons when you're healed -- which hopefully will be sooner.
 

wobblepro

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
Don't try to do them on the toepicks at this point -- they're not designed for turning on the ice the way the blades are, or the way ballet shoes are.

What I have seen skaters doing is kind of jumping from toepick to toepick with a half turn between each. I have tried, but it's a little too scary for me to put in a program. You will gain speed that you will need to glide out of at the end (if you don't fall before you get there). It's probably safest to make the exit a back outside landing edge. Are you comfortable with that yet?
I just started working on backward edges last week (the last thing I need to pass Basic 5). I'm pretty comfy on one foot and utter crap on the other lol, so I will probably wait on this a bit, but I REALLY want to try it sometime. I can "see" in my head how that would work but can also feel in my bones that I'm not ready lol.

My coach has also had me do something that she calls chaines but are really more like pique turns, only on the full blade, not the toe. Basically a quick forward outside three turn, step immediately to back outside edge of the other foot, step immediately to forward outside to start the next turn.
Ooooh! You... probably shouldn't have told me this lol. Though, I haven't taken out a wrist or elbow yet. ;) Are you doing them more like with a ballet passe (turned out), or jazz passe (turned in)?

I find I need to learn turns slowly before I'm brave enough to try them at speed. Of course you have to have some glide to make them work. But it's probably wise to work your way up to adding more speed.
Generally that's been my approach too. But this time it felt a little extra momentum was helping... until very suddenly it wasn't.

Watch out for those! Are they all over the rink or can you try to stay away from the areas where they tend to form? Tends to be more of a problem in the summer, so hopefully they'll go away soon.
There are a couple places where they seem to form more often, but yeah, I've found them all over. Some of the coaches glide around during freestyle and try to shear them off, and I've been doing the same whenever I find them.

Good luck with the falling lessons when you're healed -- which hopefully will be sooner.
Thanks!
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Here's sort of what I was talking about with hopping from toepick to toepick while turning, in a program that is clearly taking inspiration from ballet.

Here's another chaine-type movement on the blades I just came across that shouldn't require very advanced skills but doesn't look like ballet either. It's just another way of turning quickly on ice, for variety.

I just started working on backward edges last week (the last thing I need to pass Basic 5). I'm pretty comfy on one foot and utter crap on the other lol, so I will probably wait on this a bit, but I REALLY want to try it sometime. I can "see" in my head how that would work but can also feel in my bones that I'm not ready lol.

You will want to get comfortable on both back outside edges and to be able to do three turns in both directions. But don't be surprised if the difference in your rotational preference on ice is much larger than off ice. Most skaters never learn to do basic one-foot spins or single jumps in both directions, let alone anything more rotational.

Ooooh! You... probably shouldn't have told me this lol. Though, I haven't taken out a wrist or elbow yet. ;) Are you doing them more like with a ballet passe (turned out), or jazz passe (turned in)?

Turned in, and low free foot, closer to the ankle than the knee. If I remember, I'll play around with seeing if I can do it with a turned-in passe next time I'm on the ice. My coach would like if I could do that position for a one-foot spin or for my forward inside 1.5 twizzle (which is the only real twizzle I can do), but it's less secure than with the free foot low. More advanced twizzlers will sometimes use that position and I think I can do it with only one revolution and stepping out forward.

Scratch spins often move through a position that's similar to a turned-out passe, but that position isn't often used in skating. Two main reasons, I think: 1) Spins (and jump rotations) often work better with the hips more turned in than turned out, and 2) you'd need to be careful about bringing the bottom of your foot toward your other knee -- you don't want to slice your leg, or even your tights/pants/leggings, with your blade.
 

NanaPat

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Country
Canada
Loved ones have taken one look at my ribs and said "If you're falling so much" (I fell badly 2 months ago as well) "maybe you should find another sport".

If it makes you feel better, OP, I also had family suggest I should find a new sport (they would like me to do yoga instead--which is all well and good but not at all my thing). Avoiding injury is all well and good, skating safely is a must, but avoiding something you love because you might injure yourself once in a blue moon...I don't know, I don't feel like that's really living, you know?

Your families must be related to my mother. When I broke my arm skiing, she said "First you ski into a tree, and now this." The tree incident happened in 1968, the broken arm in 1999. I guess I just fall too much.
 

wobblepro

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
Here's sort of what I was talking about with hopping from toepick to toepick while turning, in a program that is clearly taking inspiration from ballet.
Oh cool, she does bourrees too.

Here's another chaine-type movement on the blades I just came across that shouldn't require very advanced skills but doesn't look like ballet either. It's just another way of turning quickly on ice, for variety.
I like these a little better than the ones in the other video.

You will want to get comfortable on both back outside edges and to be able to do three turns in both directions. But don't be surprised if the difference in your rotational preference on ice is much larger than off ice. Most skaters never learn to do basic one-foot spins or single jumps in both directions, let alone anything more rotational.
That's what my coach said the other day. She told me to pick a leg for single leg spins and said we'd be sticking with that one. Blew my mind (and excited me, because I have a bad right ankle and just learned that I apparently also can choose a leg to land jumps on).

Turned in, and low free foot, closer to the ankle than the knee. If I remember, I'll play around with seeing if I can do it with a turned-in passe next time I'm on the ice. My coach would like if I could do that position for a one-foot spin or for my forward inside 1.5 twizzle (which is the only real twizzle I can do), but it's less secure than with the free foot low. More advanced twizzlers will sometimes use that position and I think I can do it with only one revolution and stepping out forward.
Neat, I'll have to try it (slowly) sometime. Ever tried to do ballet waltzes or saute fouettees on the ice? My brain is insisting that three turns should make both possible but I can't attempt the waltzes until I can pull off an inside three turn.

Scratch spins often move through a position that's similar to a turned-out passe, but that position isn't often used in skating. Two main reasons, I think: 1) Spins (and jump rotations) often work better with the hips more turned in than turned out, and 2) you'd need to be careful about bringing the bottom of your foot toward your other knee -- you don't want to slice your leg, or even your tights/pants/leggings, with your blade.
Darn. :( I like doing edges and ending techniques in turned out passes or coupes behind the knee or ankle, but they don't seem to be used often and I'm always being told to turn in. I haven't been able to figure out if that's an issue of proper technique, easier technique for beginners, tradition, or what, but what you say makes sense.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Neat, I'll have to try it (slowly) sometime. Ever tried to do ballet waltzes or saute fouettees on the ice? My brain is insisting that three turns should make both possible but I can't attempt the waltzes until I can pull off an inside three turn.

I'm not sure what you mean by "ballet waltzes." I think you could do something like a saute fouettee as a jumped three turn (what we call a "three jump" in the US -- in Britain I think they use that term for the basic waltz jump).

One thing to remember is that if you're going to jump, even with no or half rotation, it will be safer to land either on a backward edge gliding backward (back outside is more stable than back inside) or else forward on one toepick immediately pushing forward onto a forward edge on the other foot.

Don't try to land on one foot going forward. That's a good recipe for a face plant. And don't try to travel sideways, especially on a landing. Blades need to glide forward or backward to absorb momentum.

Learn what your blades can do and make sure you feel comfortable with standard skating skills before you try to vary them in ways that might make them more balletic. Respect what the blades can do, and what they can do better than ballet shoes on the floor, and also what they can't do at all or can't do easily and would be more likely to lead to falls.

There is a move called "ballet jump" in skating that you should be able to learn pretty soon. Notice the forward landing on the toe and gliding forward on the other foot to exit. I guess it's equivalent to a saute, but the foot action is different because boots and blades have different mechanics than bare feet or flexible shoes.

Darn. :( I like doing edges and ending techniques in turned out passes or coupes behind the knee or ankle, but they don't seem to be used often and I'm always being told to turn in. I haven't been able to figure out if that's an issue of proper technique, easier technique for beginners, tradition, or what, but what you say makes sense.

Probably some of each. In general, I'd say try to master a skill the way your coach teaches it. After you can do something very comfortably and consistently, then you could start trying to play around with varying the free leg position and see what works easily for you vs. what makes the move much harder and/or unsafe to attempt at all.

If you have a lot of turnout from ballet, you'll probably be able to learn spread eagles and Ina Bauers relatively early on. Some skaters don't have enough turnout to learn them ever even at advanced levels.
 

treblemakerem

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Some of these things sound cool, but if you are still working on basic 5/6 skills, I would probably hold off a while on these until you are a little more comfortable with basic skating. Skating and ballet are very different mechanically. Ballet will certainly make you a better skater and I'm sure you'll be able to do these things eventually but you are more likely to get hurt at this point. The better you are at basics, the more likely you'll be able to save yourself from a fall.
I also wanted to recommend ice dance because it sounds like something you would enjoy. In freestyle I have to learn to turn in my toes for jumps and spins, but in ice dance my coach is always emphasizing ballet port de bras and extending pointing and turning out the free leg. I have a dance background as well so it's fun and it will also improve your edges a ton and be great for skating in general.
 
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