Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 21 to 32 of 32

Thread: How much falling is too much falling?

  1. #21
    Tripping on the Podium
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    967
    Country: Canada

    4 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by wobblepro View Post

    Darn. I like doing edges and ending techniques in turned out passes or coupes behind the knee or ankle, but they don't seem to be used often and I'm always being told to turn in. I haven't been able to figure out if that's an issue of proper technique, easier technique for beginners, tradition, or what, but what you say makes sense.
    Skating is a turned in sport. Usually when coaches say turn out, they mean from the toe, not the hip. When doing edges and field moves turn out can look really nice, but it's a killer in spins and jumps. Free skate you definitely want to be turned in or parallel at the very least. Being turned out when spinning at the speeds required to pull of spins and jumps increases the forces that are trying to pull your body from the tight rotation position.

  2. #22
    Bona Fide Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    6,323

    0 Not allowed!
    One thing that's tricky is slow cross rolls, especially forward. My dance coach wants the free foot turned out while the leg is extended right after the push, but then it has to turn in while crossing to get onto the correct outside edge for the push to the new foot. It just feels weird to keep turning in and out.

  3. #23
    Tripping on the Podium vlaurend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    815
    Country: United States of America

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by silver.blades View Post
    Skating is a turned in sport. Usually when coaches say turn out, they mean from the toe, not the hip. When doing edges and field moves turn out can look really nice, but it's a killer in spins and jumps. Free skate you definitely want to be turned in or parallel at the very least. Being turned out when spinning at the speeds required to pull of spins and jumps increases the forces that are trying to pull your body from the tight rotation position.
    ^ All true! Keeping the hips closed during spins, jumps and turns (except brackets) is crucial.

  4. #24
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    441

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by silver.blades View Post
    Skating is a turned in sport. Usually when coaches say turn out, they mean from the toe, not the hip. When doing edges and field moves turn out can look really nice, but it's a killer in spins and jumps. Free skate you definitely want to be turned in or parallel at the very least. Being turned out when spinning at the speeds required to pull of spins and jumps increases the forces that are trying to pull your body from the tight rotation position.
    Agreed that skating is more turned in than turned out. Personally, I don't like to think of it as a dichotomy (in or out), I prefer to use imagery. I image I have two headlights on each hip and I have to keep them shining forward.

  5. #25
    Rinkside
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    36

    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by "ballet waltzes."
    Here's a video of what they look like: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C1OBbwUulQo

    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    One thing to remember is that if you're going to jump, even with no or half rotation, it will be safer to land either on a backward edge gliding backward (back outside is more stable than back inside) or else forward on one toepick immediately pushing forward onto a forward edge on the other foot.

    Don't try to land on one foot going forward. That's a good recipe for a face plant. And don't try to travel sideways, especially on a landing. Blades need to glide forward or backward to absorb momentum.
    It will be a while yet before I start jumping (if I start; may go into solo ice dance) but if/when the time comes, I'll try to remember this thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    There is a move called "ballet jump" in skating that you should be able to learn pretty soon. Notice the forward landing on the toe and gliding forward on the other foot to exit. I guess it's equivalent to a saute, but the foot action is different because boots and blades have different mechanics than bare feet or flexible shoes.
    I hope that isn't as scary as it looks lol...

    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Probably some of each. In general, I'd say try to master a skill the way your coach teaches it. After you can do something very comfortably and consistently, then you could start trying to play around with varying the free leg position and see what works easily for you vs. what makes the move much harder and/or unsafe to attempt at all.
    Sounds like sound advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    If you have a lot of turnout from ballet, you'll probably be able to learn spread eagles and Ina Bauers relatively early on. Some skaters don't have enough turnout to learn them ever even at advanced levels.
    I'm eager to learn these. They are very easy for me to do off the ice, but obviously on the ice is a very different thing.

    Oh! So, I played around with chaining forward outside three turns together into something like piques, like you mentioned your coach had you do. It totally works! I was able to do them (carefully) across the ice on both legs yesterday, even on my right leg, which sucks. I'll probably avoid doing them too often though, since I need to get better at actually holding the backwards glide at the end on that right leg. I always step out of it, but enjoyed that I COULD step out of it for the piques. Neat!

  6. #26
    Rinkside
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    36

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by treblemakerem View Post
    I also wanted to recommend ice dance because it sounds like something you would enjoy. In freestyle I have to learn to turn in my toes for jumps and spins, but in ice dance my coach is always emphasizing ballet port de bras and extending pointing and turning out the free leg. I have a dance background as well so it's fun and it will also improve your edges a ton and be great for skating in general.
    My coach and I have talked about perhaps going this route. She was an ice dancer herself, so she's probably a little biased in favor of it, but even so I like the idea of not having to learn too much in the way of jumps (bad ankle) and being able to make use of the dance background a bit more.

    Quote Originally Posted by silver.blades View Post
    Skating is a turned in sport. Usually when coaches say turn out, they mean from the toe, not the hip. When doing edges and field moves turn out can look really nice, but it's a killer in spins and jumps. Free skate you definitely want to be turned in or parallel at the very least. Being turned out when spinning at the speeds required to pull of spins and jumps increases the forces that are trying to pull your body from the tight rotation position.
    This is probably going to be one of the harder things for me. I have a lot of natural turnout and am also used to turning out to help me balance. Parallel or turned in not only feels unnatural to me, but also unstable. I'm getting better at it, but it is still tricky and seems to so far take constant concentration or I default to what I know. Like I keep turning out for 2 foot spins, and my coach says the only reason I even get away with it and don't fall on my face is probably the ballet training. She actually had me skip ahead to single foot spins to help me learn to stay more turned in on both one and two feet. It does help, but still...

  7. #27
    Bona Fide Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    6,323

    2 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by wobblepro View Post
    Here's a video of what they look like: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C1OBbwUulQo
    Don't try to copy that directly on ice. Instead, work on mastering various gliding moves that work with the natural tendency of the blades, and when you're comfortable with a sequence of edges and/or skating turns you can work on timing them to waltz music (or other rhythms) and play with the arm and shoulder and free leg positions to express the music.

    If you take up ice dancing, you can learn various ways of waltzing on ice. More advanced skaters have already worked out translations of waltzing to ice that work with the blades for beginners and middle and higher skill levels.

    You might be ready in several more months of lessons to learn the Dutch Waltz (preliminary ice dance, forward skating only) and the waltz eight, which is an edge and three turn exercise in a figure eight pattern on the very first figure and now Moves in the Field tests. Your coach can teach you when you're ready.

    You can also check out waltzes on the mid-level ice dance tests that you might be ready for in a few years:
    Willow Waltz, European Waltz, maybe American Waltz.

    Some of those steps may be reminiscent of the ballet waltzing, but with more emphasis on gliding motions. Which is what the floor steps are trying to emulate, but skating can actually do better.

    If you ever put together a freestyle program or solo free dance program, you and the coach/choreographer you work with might want to get creative in adapting whatever skating skills you have at that point to fit with waltz music, or some other characteristic rhythm. There's always room for variations of the basics.

    But if the priority (based on the title of this thread) is to avoid too much falling, then always start with edge-based skating skills you're already comfortable with and see how you can vary those skills. Starting with floor steps you're familiar with off ice and trying to translate them to the ice before you really have a good sense of how blades want to move, or how to use your body to facilitate the basic gliding, would be an approach that would invite more falls.

    Oh! So, I played around with chaining forward outside three turns together into something like piques, like you mentioned your coach had you do. It totally works! I was able to do them (carefully) across the ice on both legs yesterday, even on my right leg, which sucks. I'll probably avoid doing them too often though, since I need to get better at actually holding the backwards glide at the end on that right leg. I always step out of it, but enjoyed that I COULD step out of it for the piques. Neat!
    Cool

  8. #28
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    441

    1 Not allowed!
    A general note of advice: movement patterns and biomechanics are different between ballet and figure skating. Sure, having a ballet background may afford you greater ease at learning new movement patterns, compared to someone without any dance background. But at the end of the day, you should expect to learn new movement patterns (and new terminology, too).

  9. #29
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    127
    Country: United States of America

    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by cl2 View Post
    Agreed that skating is more turned in than turned out. Personally, I don't like to think of it as a dichotomy (in or out), I prefer to use imagery. I image I have two headlights on each hip and I have to keep them shining forward.
    I tried thinking that image of two headlights on each hip today during my lesson and it totally helped me with not turning out as much! Thanks!

  10. #30
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    441

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ducky View Post
    I tried thinking that image of two headlights on each hip today during my lesson and it totally helped me with not turning out as much! Thanks!
    Glad to hear!

    This is an example of what experts in the field of motor learning call "external focus". You learn the motor skill by directing your attention to achieving a certain outcome through the movement, rather than focusing on the movement itself (internal focus, such as turn in or turn out). You can google it if it interests you.

  11. #31
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    480
    Country: United States of America

    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by vlaurend View Post
    ^ All true! Keeping the hips closed during spins, jumps and turns (except brackets) is crucial.
    Everyone does things differently I suppose, I actually keep my hips closed/neutral for both brackets and counters. but there are some basic position spins that require an open hip, back camel, as well as laybacks. There are also many variations like doughnut, pancake, and probably so many others. I open my hips a lot for chocktaws, and spread eagles. Many things in skating are closed hips, but ideally you want to be able to be able to do both and control what you're doing.

  12. #32
    Tripping on the Podium vlaurend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    815
    Country: United States of America

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by jf12 View Post
    Everyone does things differently I suppose, I actually keep my hips closed/neutral for both brackets and counters. but there are some basic position spins that require an open hip, back camel, as well as laybacks. There are also many variations like doughnut, pancake, and probably so many others. I open my hips a lot for chocktaws, and spread eagles. Many things in skating are closed hips, but ideally you want to be able to be able to do both and control what you're doing.
    Oh yes, and choctaws, LOL!

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •