Why there have been so many wrong calls for the Flip?

charlotte14 · Oct 6, 2018

I have noticed since last year, there have been many questionable calls for the Flip. What is the problem with this jump? Is ISU hating on it or something? Or they have troubles with the camera views? :rolleye:

Last season, Gabrielle Daleman got e call for the Flip which she has correct inside edge:
https://youtu.be/KWFXGmWWUrI

This season at Junior GP, several girls got ! for their Flip jumps which look pretty much the same as other normal Flip which do not get call.

I know Japan Open is not a real competition but why on earth anyone gave Kaori Sakamoto not just 01 but 02 e calls for the Flip?
https://twitter.com/LazyLys/status/1048593329846411264

She has a Flutz, everyone knows it. :scratch2:

Now they suddenly say she has a Lip with a clear inside edge?

It would be not a big deal as I know this is just a commercial event, but the chairman of the ISU Technical Committee aka Fabio BIANCHETTI was at the tech panel of Japan Open this year.

Link: https://www.jsfresults.com/InterNational/2018-2019/japanopen/data0250.htm

I have to say this is getting ridiculous. If we can not trust the chairman of the ISU Technical Committee, then who we can trust? So now we have to accept that Technical Committee have specialists who can not tell the difference between the Flip and the Lutz?

chopinskate · Oct 6, 2018

I feel like you want a more serious answer than what I have in mind.

Eh, #yolo, whatever. Because it's the ISU "dealing" with the technical matters.

Oh, that's not an insult. They're just such geniuses, that they can just see things we can't ever imagine.

charlotte14 · Oct 6, 2018

chopinskate said:
I feel like you want a more serious answer than what I have in mind.

Eh, #yolo, whatever. Because it's the ISU "dealing" with the technical matters.

Oh, that's not an insult. They're just such geniuses, that they can just see things we can't ever imagine.

Do you have collection of protocols for ladies at Junior GPs? I have not access to the competition forum. I remember people complain some girls who have good and deep edge get ! for their Flips.

chopinskate · Oct 6, 2018

charlotte14 said:
Do you have collection of protocols for ladies at Junior GPs? I have not access to the competition forum. I remember people complain some girls who have good and deep edge get ! for their Flips.

NymphyNymphy · Oct 7, 2018

I thought I was the only one confused why Sakamoto received edge calls on her flips. I vividly remembered her flutzing intensely at the olympics. She went from flutzing a few months ago to lipping? How does that even happen? And will Sakamoto receive an award for correcting her flutz so well that her flips became lips?

champs · Oct 7, 2018

Would be nice if the OP could give us pointers to which particular skaters' flips in the JGP we should be looking at.

DSQ · Oct 7, 2018

charlotte14 said:
I have to say this is getting ridiculous. If we can not trust the chairman of the ISU Technical Committee, then who we can trust? So now we have to accept that Technical Committee have specialists who can not tell the difference between the Flip and the Lutz?

Perhaps it’s the opposite? Rather than incompetence it’s great knowledge? Perhaps with his years of technical knowledge he thinks the edge just wasn’t clear enough to be valid and is trying to clamp down if incorrect edges by issuing more edge calls and this is a sign of things to come?

I don’t know but I do like to err on the side of optimism and I think it’s better for the sport to have harsh judges than lenient ones.

charlotte14 · Oct 7, 2018

DSQ said:
Perhaps it’s the opposite? Rather than incompetence it’s great knowledge? Perhaps with his years of technical knowledge he thinks the edge just wasn’t clear enough to be valid and is trying to clamp down if incorrect edges by issuing more edge calls and this is a sign of things to come?

I don’t know but I do like to err on the side of optimism and I think it’s better for the sport to have harsh judges than lenient ones.

He has great knowledge to the point seeing clear and deep inside edge into deep outside edge? Perfect.

DSQ · Oct 7, 2018

Perhaps from his angle it didn’t look so deep? I’m just trying to give the guy a chance here. I’m no expert, the flips looked fine to me, but I’ve got to believe that someone of his position has a reason to make such a call.

Maybe it was a mistake, we’ll see in future competitions.

Andrea82 · Oct 7, 2018

We don't know if it was an unanimous decision or if there was disagreement within the technical panel. It could have been a 2-1 situation with Bianchetti being over-ruled by 2 specialists (Evelyn Rossoukhi and Todd Sand). Or maybe itt was in favour of the edge call, but one of the 2 specialists should have backed him to make it pass.

It was the first competition for Bianchetti and Sand this season. Rossoukhi already called at Autumn Classic in Men (with Jeroen Prins as Technical Controller and Raoul LeBlanc as Technical Specialist) and Ladies (with Leena Laaksonen as Technical Controller and Nancy Garcia as Assistant Technical Specialist) and at Lombardia in Men (with Raffaella Locatelli as Technical Controller and Vera Vabdecaveye as the other Specialist) and Pairs (with Vera Tauchmanova as Technical Controller and Larisa Feedova as Assistant Technical Specialist).

cl2 · Oct 7, 2018

charlotte14 said:
I have noticed since last year, there have been many questionable calls for the Flip. What is the problem with this jump? Is ISU hating on it or something? Or they have troubles with the camera views?

Last season, Gabrielle Daleman got e call for the Flip which she has correct inside edge:
https://youtu.be/KWFXGmWWUrI

If you watch Gabby's edge after the LFO 3-turn and before picking, there is a small wobble from inside to outside back to inside edge, before the pick goes into the ice. My guess is that could be the reason it's flagged as an unclear edge.

The video seems to imply that the correct edge is determined at the point when the left foot leaves the ice. I do not know if that's the correct criteria. (Anyone knows?)

charlotte14 · Oct 7, 2018

cl2 said:
If you watch Gabby's edge after the LFO 3-turn and before picking, there is a small wobble from inside to outside back to inside edge, before the pick goes into the ice. My guess is that could be the reason it's flagged as an unclear edge.

The video seems to imply that the correct edge is determined at the point when the left foot leaves the ice. I do not know if that's the correct criteria. (Anyone knows?)

No, they gave her e call, not even a Flat !.
I would say ok give her ! if they think it's unclear but to call that e... same with Kaori. It's ridiculous.

chopinskate · Oct 8, 2018

Andrea82 said:
We don't know if it was an unanimous decision or if there was disagreement within the technical panel. It could have been a 2-1 situation with Bianchetti being over-ruled by 2 specialists (Evelyn Rossoukhi and Todd Sand). Or maybe itt was in favour of the edge call, but one of the 2 specialists should have backed him to make it pass.

It was the first competition for Bianchetti and Sand this season. Rossoukhi already called at Autumn Classic in Men (with Jeroen Prins as Technical Controller and Raoul LeBlanc as Technical Specialist) and Ladies (with Leena Laaksonen as Technical Controller and Nancy Garcia as Assistant Technical Specialist) and at Lombardia in Men (with Raffaella Locatelli as Technical Controller and Vera Vabdecaveye as the other Specialist) and Pairs (with Vera Tauchmanova as Technical Controller and Larisa Feedova as Assistant Technical Specialist).

OK, but this doesn't explain why that Flip was given an edge call. One simply has to assume narcotics at this stage.

Yoa · Oct 8, 2018

Since steps before solo jump in SP were controversial because judges couldn't recognise them, I guess edges are also controversial. At the next ISU congress they will replace flip and lutz with one jump :sarcasm:

Yuzuruu · Oct 8, 2018

I'm waiting for the day judges will be held accountable for their ridiculous calls... you gave a CLEAR inside edge on flip an edge call and at the same time You didn't "notice" the giant FLUTZ? You're out for the rest of the season and have to take mandatory tech classes. Oh and financial penalty would be nice, maybe then the judges would open their eyes at once.

DSQ · Oct 8, 2018

A fine would be a little extreme considering they don’t get paid lol

But I agree. If it can be proved that they missed an obvious edge or under rotation call (or gave one without cause) you should have to take special classes and be barred from that years major competitions. A three strikes and your out type thing.

gkelly · Oct 8, 2018

If there is someone other than the controller who's part of the panel to begin with checking the decisions of the panel after the fact, they will use the same camera angle that the panel used, and not a broadcast video or fan camera.

At best maybe there would be a decision to hook one other camera angle into the tech panel's system. But that would probably require another video replay operator.

It might also be useful to have the tech panel feed available for replays on the Jumbotron at large events so the live audience could see the same angle that the panel is looking at in reviews. I don't know how practical it would be to make that feed available to broadcast networks, let alone to put it on youtube.

So fans at home working from different videos are always going to have a different view than the panel had and are therefore not a good authority for determining what the panel got wrong.

NymphyNymphy · Oct 8, 2018

Is ISU going to address this serious issue. Or are they going to brush it under the rig like they always do. I am prfoundly confused how these senior technical experts forgot what a flip and lutz edge is.

charlotte14 · Oct 8, 2018

champs said:
Would be nice if the OP could give us pointers to which particular skaters' flips in the JGP we should be looking at.

Ask a skater yourself: https://twitter.com/kaorisakamotos/status/1048928946182639616?s=21

charlotte14 · Oct 8, 2018

gkelly said:
So fans at home working from different videos are always going to have a different view than the panel had and are therefore not a good authority for determining what the panel got wrong.

Tech specialists can prevent wrong calls by checking the videos of skaters before the competitions, or simply just watch them in practice. How long it takes to notice the Flip and Lutz edges? As far as I know, tech specialists at top competitions are paid, no? If it’s part of their job, then prepare beforehand by watching the practice doesn’t harm them.

Why there have been so many wrong calls for the Flip?

charlotte14

chopinskate

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NymphyNymphy

champs

DSQ

charlotte14

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Andrea82

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