Why are spins worth so much less.

NymphyNymphy · Oct 16, 2018

What if a skater has better spins than jumps? I've always found spinning to be much harder than jumping but I'm only at my doubles and probably will stay that way (adult figure skater). If we were to have another skater like Alissa Czinsny or Lucinda Ruh, they would be at such a disadvantage.

Atlantis · Oct 16, 2018

This is the first question that I had when I first came to figure skating.. I would say that it's because there is assumption that you can't teach somebody good jumps, you either jump or not, while with spins (and everything else) people think it can be taught if you put enough effort into it. So jumps are "worth" more. There is also the fact that it's jumps that are the hardest on the body and that can seriously damage your health, so it's rewarded more as more risky elements.

pohatta · Oct 16, 2018

NymphyNymphy said:
What if a skater has better spins than jumps? I've always found spinning to be much harder than jumping but I'm only at my doubles and probably will stay that way (adult figure skater). If we were to have another skater like Alissa Czinsny or Lucinda Ruh, they would be at such a disadvantage.

I agree spins are underappreciated, but I think Lucinda had a bigger disdvantage in her time. Back then the ranking went: no lutz, no flip = nobody. Nowadays it's not that simple. For example Caro and Kiira had a stage in their career when they stopped doing 3lz and 3f because of injury and still succeeded a lot better than Lucinda ever did.

NymphyNymphy · Oct 16, 2018

pohatta said:
I agree spins are underappreciated, but I think Lucinda had a bigger disdvantage in her time. Back then the ranking went: no lutz, no flip = nobody. Nowadays it's not that simple. For example Caro and Kiira had a stage in their career when they stopped doing 3lz and 3f because of injury and still succeeded a lot better than Lucinda ever did.

Lucinda is one of a kind. I can watch her spin for days. I heard though, that spinning at such speed and frequency (in training) can cause serious brain damage.

gkelly · Oct 16, 2018

Well, the quality of the jumps, including especially whether they're rotated or not, matters even more than exactly which takeoffs you do. That was true under 6.0 but moreso under IJS.

For spins, IJS rules encourage skaters to put a lot of different variations (features) into the same spin, and now not to repeat the same variation, so it is possible to get most of one's spinning skills into the the three spins required/allowed in the freeskate. But a really great spinner doesn't have the opportunity to build up as many points in those three spins above what a merely good spinner can do.

Probably the ability for great spinners to earn +4 and +5 now and good spinners to max out at +3 will allow for some larger point differences on spins.

As is, level 4 combination spins are worth about the same as double axels, so at levels where most skaters are doing double jumps (and fewer jump passes than juniors/seniors), the spins can be more of distinguishing factor. Where most skaters are doing triples or even quads, spins don't make much difference except in close contests.

I'd love to see more flexibility in the free program rules to allow the opportunity for great spinners to earn points for extra spin in their freeskates, in place of a jump pass. Maybe even two.

Shayuki · Oct 16, 2018

I wish spins mattered more. They are the most lengthy elements of a program, after all. A third of a SP can be spent spinning. And one skater's spins can be many times more enjoyable to watch than another's. Yet they'll only gain a point, if that, as an advantage in GOE. Levels should be more challenging to achieve. Lvl 4 is a matter of course for any higher end skater.

It's a shame it's like this at the junior / senior ranks because when you go down to the earlier levels where skaters are still jumping single axels and double jumps, spins actually are much more important elements. It's as if their value is still stuck in the era where skaters would 3T-2T as their combo.

NaVi · Oct 16, 2018

My question is if spins are worth so little then what's the point of having levels at the senior level? Just let them be judged by GOE to give them room to match the music.

gkelly · Oct 16, 2018

NaVi said:
My question is if spins are worth so little then what's the point of having levels at the senior level? Just let them be judged by GOE to give them room to match the music.

Then they would be worth even less. And the difficulty level would go way down. Would the quality go way up? Hard to say.

In the question of how much further skating can develop technically, maybe one place is in getting skaters to match the music, use thematic variations, and focus on position quality. Tweaks to the level features and the GOE guidelines could encourage those developments.

Exceptional spinners like Ruh aside, the average level of both difficulty and quality in spins is much higher now than it was 20 years ago, and that would not have happened without levels.

If someday the competition structure is changed so that there is one program that's all about technical difficulty and another program that is all about using the technical skills for artistic purpose, maybe the spins would have levels in the former type of program and no levels in the latter.

Tolstoj · Oct 16, 2018

Lucinda Ruh spins were a bit overrated imo.

She was an amazing spinner, but correct me if i'm wrong, those weren't positions that others couldn't replicate, it was more a matter of training these all day (*coff* *coff* instead of working on jumps)

While for example a biellman spin performed by a man is something not all male skaters can do.

I think ISU should reward that more, the thought behind a new position that maybe requires insane flexibility and only few skaters could do it, if done well that should be a +5 over a fast and centered biellmann done by woman, that is a +4 for me cause the position is beautiful though not very original.

likevelvet · Oct 16, 2018

Tolstoj said:
Lucinda Ruh spins were a bit overrated imo.

She was an amazing spinner, but correct me if i'm wrong, those weren't positions that others couldn't replicate, it was more a matter of training these all day (*coff* *coff* instead of working on jumps)

While for example a biellman spin performed by a man is something not all male skaters can do.

I think ISU should reward that more, the thought behind a new position that maybe requires insane flexibility and only few skaters could do it, if done well that should be a +5 over a fast and centered biellmann done by woman, that is a +4 for me cause the position is beautiful though not very original.

This is an interesting idea. Then fitness, specifically flexibility, would be rewarded, and you'd see skaters like Lipnitskaya and Tarakanova getting more points for their creativity. It would really encourage more variation.

PinkElephants · Oct 16, 2018

I don't know why either but I wish they weren't so undervalued. It's sad really. I feel like good spinning is becoming a bit of a lost art like spirals. There's good spins now but most of them focus on being flexible and getting into various positions rather than doing a quality fast centered spin... it feels as if the spins are just there for filler and I hate it. They do one position, spin 3 revs, check, get into next position, 3 revs, check, etc.

I get that this is what COP rewards/requires for good levels, and skaters have harder technical requirements than ever and enough on their plate already. But if you look at old spins, with few exceptions it's just not the same. Even if the positions are more interesting and varied today. I miss nice scratch spins

andromache · Oct 16, 2018

I miss 6.0 spins.

MalAssada · Oct 16, 2018

Technical elements other than jumps should really be worth more. Not only spins, but a well done step sequence makes the program, IMO. Yes, there are levels, but the base values for those levels in way too low. It's the reason you see bad spinners on top of the podium, but not bad jumpers.

gkelly · Oct 16, 2018

My fantasy competition restructure:

Get rid of the short program, and replace it with:

*a jump-only event in which there would be incentives for skaters to try the hardest jumps and jump combinations and sequences they can, in a context where they don't have to worry about the extra energy and concentration required for the difficult jumps would affect the presentation of the rest of the program.

*a spin-only event (to be held on half ice, men's and women's events at the same time), with incentives for skaters to push the limits on a variety of spinning skills including some that would be too tiring or time consuming to include in a freeskating program

*a skating skills program to music in which edges, turns, steps, spirals and other field moves, etc., in difficult combinations and with extra high quality in isolation are rewarded as well as making them match the music

Award separate medals for each of the above.

Then either carry over the totals (or factored placements?) from these three phases combined into a final phase consisting of one "well-balanced" program or make the well-balanced program its own separate event.

Tolstoj · Oct 16, 2018

likevelvet said:
This is an interesting idea. Then fitness, specifically flexibility, would be rewarded, and you'd see skaters like Lipnitskaya and Tarakanova getting more points for their creativity. It would really encourage more variation.

Yes and if you expand that concept with a real bonus for those variations over just more GOE, i think even skaters like Michael Christian Martinez would have been more appreciated.

draqq · Oct 16, 2018

I would like to see the layback spin turned into a Choreographic layback spin for ladies. If they want to do Biellmanns or haircutters or pearls, that's perfectly fine, but the emphasis should be placed on the actual quality and speed of the layback position.

I can also see the last spin of the men's and ladies' free program turned into a Choreo spin as well. The point would be for the skater to deliver the 'wow factor' for the last spin with its speed, positions, creativity, and/or musicality.

andromache · Oct 16, 2018

draqq said:
I would like to see the layback spin turned into a Choreographic layback spin for ladies. If they want to do Biellmanns or haircutters or pearls, that's perfectly fine, but the emphasis should be placed on the actual quality and speed of the layback position.

I can also see the last spin of the men's and ladies' free program turned into a Choreo spin as well. The point would be for the skater to deliver the 'wow factor' for the last spin with its speed, positions, creativity, and/or musicality.

I like the idea of a "choreographic" spin that focuses on quality, creativity, and/or musicality rather than levels. I miss great scratch spins, for example, but I think that they aren't great mathematically or something?

As long as a layback wouldn't be required for ladies. Back injuries tend to be chronic and I would rather them not be exacerbated by forcing ladies to do mediocre layback spins.

draqq · Oct 16, 2018

andromache said:
I like the idea of a "choreographic" spin that focuses on quality, creativity, and/or musicality rather than levels. I miss great scratch spins, for example, but I think that they aren't great mathematically or something?

As long as a layback wouldn't be required for ladies. Back injuries tend to be chronic and I would rather them not be exacerbated by forcing ladies to do mediocre layback spins.

I miss great scratch spins or just spins that end the program with an amazing rush. I would only have the choreo layback spin for the short program as the required element (unless the ISU chooses to get rid of it).

gkelly · Oct 16, 2018

The layback spin has already been removed as a requirement in the ladies' short program. For the past 2 or 3 years, ladies have been allowed to fill that slot with a choice of camel, sit, or layback (as long as it's a different position than the flying spin).

Even before IJS, when the layback was a required element beginning in 1989, the requirement was "a layback or sideways leaning spin." So it wasn't required to arch the back directly backward. (I don't know offhand how the requirement was worded during the 1973 to 1988 period when the solo spin requirement rotated, in the years that the requirement was a layback.)

For those who miss an emphasis on classic layback positions, one option might be to redefine the Biellmann (and haircutter in which the torso is upright) as an upright spin and not a variation on the layback, such that any spin that includes both layback and non-laid-back upright variations would be called as USp rather than LSp. It might be easier to earn level 4 by including those variations, but the base value would be slightly lower.

Yes, a choreographic spin in the free program would be a way to highlight simple positions executed well. Skaters already have the option to execute a 4th spin after they've already gotten credit for 3 leveled spins, with no points and no penalty, but it's not worth the time or energy. Giving GOE points would make it worthwhile. Even so, skaters often would want to save a more difficult or faster/more dizzying spin for the end of the program and to place the choreographic one at a different part of the choreography where it fits the music better and serves as a place to conserve energy for later difficult moves to come. So it might be tricky to make sure that tech panels can always identify which spin is intended as the choreographic spin.

drivingmissdaisy · Oct 16, 2018

Spins occasionally account for small margins of victory, and I think between two similarly executed programs that's a good thing. It wouldn't surprise me if spins alone put Karen over Ashley at last year's nationals, when factoring their BV, GOE, and overall impact on the program reflected in PCS.

Why are spins worth so much less.

NymphyNymphy

Atlantis

pohatta

NymphyNymphy

gkelly

Shayuki

NaVi

gkelly

Tolstoj

likevelvet

#Bless this mess

PinkElephants

andromache

MalAssada

gkelly

Tolstoj

draqq

FigureSkatingPhenom

andromache

draqq

FigureSkatingPhenom

gkelly

drivingmissdaisy

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