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Thread: Quad Watch (Ladies)

  1. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    That's a +4 for me. With a nicer air position (yes it *is* distracting for the look of the air rotations - an air position like Asada's or Kihira's is much more ideal) and less telegraphing it would be a +5. It is beautifully done though in terms of impact, unquestionable rotation, and amplitude.
    Really? IMHO Midori's triple axel look the most incredible. She knew how to adjust her leg and land with room to spare.
    Asada noticeably looks stiff as she sets up her jumps and the rotations look squeezed in.
    Kihira's triple axel looks like a triple.

  2. #382
    TWO TIMES OLYMPIC CHAMPION Yuzuruu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silveruskate View Post
    Yuzu has one of the best techniques (I think best) in Men's FS and his 4T is the same as Sasha's. You can see neither pick-in completely backwards, turn a little on the toe and then leave the ice.

    https://youtu.be/t66exblcxlw

    https://youtu.be/0hf7XbPS_E8
    Nope, that's wrong. Yuzu does have impeccable technique and Sasha is nowhere near that. Sasha has a completely forward take off, sometimes even more than that, she spins on her toepick/blade to get that first rotation and then completes a triple. Yuzuru is already airborne at 3/4 of the jump and he only assist himself with the toepick, he does not spin on it, you can easily see it in YouTube slomo.

    Back to the original topic:
    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bv2d7M1n...on_share_sheet its probably UR but still, good for her!

  3. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    That's a +4 for me. With a nicer air position (yes it *is* distracting for the look of the air rotations - an air position like Asada's or Kihira's is much more ideal) and less telegraphing it would be a +5.
    1. Again, Yukari Nakano is the person you want to cite for ruining the look of her jumps with her leg wrap. Her air position was much lazier. Ito's free leg is held quite purposefully compared to her, and the rest of her air position was great, too. Have you noticed that Ito's free leg tended to be "wrapped" less on her +3T in her combos than her solo triples, for instance? Ever wondered why there was such a difference?

    2. Ito didn't "telegraph" her 3Axel. She used to go into it with great speed and purpose.

    You seem to prefer applying contrarian rhetoric with little understanding and ability to think about physics and skating.

  4. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuzuruu View Post
    Nope, that's wrong. Yuzu does have impeccable technique and Sasha is nowhere near that. Sasha has a completely forward take off, sometimes even more than that, she spins on her toepick/blade to get that first rotation and then completes a triple. Yuzuru is already airborne at 3/4 of the jump and he only assist himself with the toepick, he does not spin on it, you can easily see it in YouTube slomo.
    No one's perfect, I love Yuzu but a better Quad toe for example would have him pick-in more backwards than he does. Not to mention I don't think you're distinguishing between pre-rotation and forward take-off which are completely different. Forward take-off is about picking-in forwards, whilst pre-rotation is turning on the pick before leaving the ice. I shouldn't have said the same because he pre-rotates a 1/8 less than Sasha. Both of their Quad toes are great.

  5. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by silveruskate View Post
    Yuzu has one of the best techniques (I think best) in Men's FS and his 4T is the same as Sasha's. You can see neither pick-in completely backwards, turn a little on the toe and then leave the ice.

    https://youtu.be/t66exblcxlw

    https://youtu.be/0hf7XbPS_E8
    oh no, not even close. if you slow sasha's down enough she literally takes off almost flat footed and about 3/4 turn prerotated.

    i'm not one to really care much about prerotation and "flat" toe takeoffs as others, but to say she and Yuzu have the same technique/takeoff is really incorrect.

  6. #386
    choice beef largeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    That's a +4 for me. With a nicer air position (yes it *is* distracting for the look of the air rotations - an air position like Asada's or Kihira's is much more ideal) and less telegraphing it would be a +5. It is beautifully done though in terms of impact, unquestionable rotation, and amplitude.
    Mao's 3A has gorgeous air position

    I am not so sure about Rika's...

    I agree with you that Midori's leg wrap is not pleasing (sorry people )

  7. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by tral View Post
    1. Again, Yukari Nakano is the person you want to cite for ruining the look of her jumps with her leg wrap. Her air position was much lazier. Ito's free leg is held quite purposefully compared to her, and the rest of her air position was great, too. Have you noticed that Ito's free leg tended to be "wrapped" less on her +3T in her combos than her solo triples, for instance? Ever wondered why there was such a difference?

    2. Ito didn't "telegraph" her 3Axel. She used to go into it with great speed and purpose.

    You seem to prefer applying contrarian rhetoric with little understanding and ability to think about physics and skating.
    I'm using the example that was provided ... you could see her stroking into it and a long RBO edge leading into it, whereas skaters like Asada and Kihira have executed triple axels with transitions and/or less stroking or leadup. Of course, the stroking lends itself to greater power (and it's much more astounding to behold) but you could still see the axel coming a mile away.

    I'm also not talking about Nakano in terms of air position here, I'm talking about that specific example of Ito. Again, in that example Ito does not have the most aesthetically pleasing air position... her feet aren't tight together (her left foot is almost perpendicular to her right boot and is wrapped above her right foot instead of the ankles close together as you see in a nice backspin position) and her jump lacks the nice straight axis of rotation. You could see on her 2nd 3T of her 3-3 combo how I would prefer her air position to be during the 3A. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvgWI8QDrzQ (at 5:30)

    It still very well may be the best 3A ever executed by a female (that's debatable depending on the qualities you look for), but there are aspects of it which prevent it from being a +5. Just because something is the best ever doesn't automatically make it +5 worthy.

    IMO, this second 3A from Kihira (1:35/6:12) I would put almost on par with Ito's, because aesthetically it looks more refined and effortless - it's almost too easy-looking. Ito's is obviously more jaw-dropping and definitely schools Kihira on amplitude, but Kihira's has a nicer air position (tighter feet - you can see her ankles are in line with each other), nicer landing position (particularly the posture; Ito is a bit forward), and less set-up (doesn't ride the RBO as prolonged as Ito). I'd say it even hits a musical highlight better than Ito's 3A. https://youtu.be/OSid1Kpi5Sg But due to Ito having way better amplitude (which is only 1 GOE bullet mind you) and slightly more rotation overall (though Kihira's isn't hugely pre-rotated or under-rotated, by comparison), I would give a slight edge to Ito (but barely so). A +4 would still be merited, IMO (Kihira's a +4 with no issues, Ito's is a +5 but drops to a +4 because of the air position/setup). Jumps aren't just about height and distance.

  8. #388
    Bona Fide Member yume's Avatar
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    IMO, Ito's 3A is the MVP of all 3As in history.
    I guess that with the new boots her 3A would have looked more effortless and refined.

  9. #389
    Skating is Art, if you let it be Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Tight feet are not a requirement to do a jump (and do it well). Generally that’s the most sensible approach, but things like delayed axels or double jumps don’t generally call for it, and those jumps can be very beautiful. Midori Ito’s air position can frankly qualify as a “difficult air position”, because it’s harder to rotate if you don’t pull in tightly. If you told anyone else to jump 3A like that, they wouldn’t make the rotation and would fall HARD.

    Kihara’s 3A is not on the level of Ito’s. She goes into with less speed, pre-rotates the entrance more, doesn’t get the same amplitude, and doesn’t finish the rotation fully in the air. At her best she deserves +3 GOE on it and generally the ones I see from her are +2 quality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orlov View Post
    LOL, it's not take off.

    No, it's not. For whom such manipulations are intended? Do you think I can not learn video frame by frame? How can you define the UR by pic? After all, the picture can not see the direction of movement.
    There is no manipulation and I think you should learn more about how jumps work. Any jump should land at least 1/4 turn past the point it left the ice, otherwise it is under rotated, plain and simple. You can see exactly that from pictures, and it’s apparent while watching the jump too.

  10. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Tight feet are not a requirement to do a jump (and do it well). Generally that’s the most sensible approach, but things like delayed axels or double jumps don’t generally call for it, and those jumps can be very beautiful. Midori Ito’s air position can frankly qualify as a “difficult air position”, because it’s harder to rotate if you don’t pull in tightly. If you told anyone else to jump 3A like that, they wouldn’t make the rotation and would fall HARD.
    I also don't see why "unaesthetic" "leg wrap" like Ito's should be deducted in Ito's jump quality GOE. The judges should have enough knowledge to just come to the conclusion as you have that it's more of a difficult air position than anything and assign it to GOE, and deduct PCS scores if they think the aesthetic choice is poor (as would be the case of ugly-looking tanos, honestly).

  11. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Tight feet are not a requirement to do a jump (and do it well). Generally that’s the most sensible approach, but things like delayed axels or double jumps don’t generally call for it, and those jumps can be very beautiful. Midori Ito’s air position can frankly qualify as a “difficult air position”, because it’s harder to rotate if you don’t pull in tightly. If you told anyone else to jump 3A like that, they wouldn’t make the rotation and would fall HARD.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by tral View Post
    I also don't see why "unaesthetic" "leg wrap" like Ito's should be deducted in Ito's jump quality GOE. The judges should have enough knowledge to just come to the conclusion as you have that it's more of a difficult air position than anything and assign it to GOE, and deduct PCS scores if they think the aesthetic choice is poor (as would be the case of ugly-looking tanos, honestly).
    Really?! Leg wraps getting additional GOE (or getting ignored) for being "more difficult" than straight, tight air position now?

    Heck let's just award skaters a +GOE bullet for a lean in the air because it's way harder to land than the skater jumping upright!

  12. #392
    Skating is Art, if you let it be Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    A lean in the air shows a lack of control. Midori’s position does not show a lack of control. It’s simply a style, and looks like a helicopter blade flying through the air, the way she does it. Quite interesting and much different than lazy wrap, where it looks like the skater’s leg is trying to catch up with the rest of the body.

  13. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    A lean in the air shows a lack of control. Midori’s position does not show a lack of control. It’s simply a style, and looks like a helicopter blade flying through the air, the way she does it. Quite interesting and much different than lazy wrap, where it looks like the skater’s leg is trying to catch up with the rest of the body.
    For some reason people seem to be using “leg wrap” and “open rotating position” interchangeably, but they are very different. The latter is a conscious decision to open up the position to slow down rotation - Kostornaia also does this on her 2A this season, as the jump has become bigger as she prepares for 3A. If you look at her smaller 2As from the beginning of the 17-18 season, she has a much tighter rotating position. This is not the same as a Yukari Nakano leg wrap.

  14. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    A lean in the air shows a lack of control. Midori’s position does not show a lack of control. It’s simply a style, and looks like a helicopter blade flying through the air, the way she does it. Quite interesting and much different than lazy wrap, where it looks like the skater’s leg is trying to catch up with the rest of the body.
    Imagine Ito skating to Flight of the Valkyries.

  15. #395
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    Anna Shcherbakova 4Lutz+3Loop https://www.instagram.com/p/BwPUpveHREM/

  16. #396
    On the Ice laybackrelaxspinfast's Avatar
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    Just saw this recommended on YouTube and thought it was quite interesting.
    https://youtu.be/ORCBA59RUis

  17. #397
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