Battle of the Sexes: TES analysis at NHK Trophy and beyond | Golden Skate

Battle of the Sexes: TES analysis at NHK Trophy and beyond

balabam

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Nov 23, 2015
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How good was ladies competition at NHK in comparison to men aka "fair results of joint competition".
I adjusted ladies components scores for men component's factor (*1/0,8) in short and free, summed up all and here you are:


1Shoma UNO277,45
2Sergei VORONOV254,28
3Rika KIHIRA250,25
4Satoko MIYAHARA246,29
5Elizaveta TUKTAMYSHEVA243,93
6Mai MIHARA228,90
7Matteo RIZZO225,71
8Mariah BELL223,90
9Vincent ZHOU223,42
10Eunsoo LIM221,09
11Dmitri ALIEV220,52
12Alena LEONOVA217,74
13Sota YAMAMOTO213,40
14Maria SOTSKOVA201,35
15Alexander JOHNSON199,75
16Courtney HICKS198,85
17Deniss VASILJEVS198,60
18June Hyoung LEE192,26
19Hiroaki SATO190,18
20Mae Berenice MEITE184,33
21Kevin REYNOLDS183,67
22Angela WANG181,84
23Yaroslav PANIOT175,64
24Kailani CRAINE174,44
 

Tavi...

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Feb 10, 2014
Why do people compare TES and total scores between male and female skaters? The implication seems to be that if a “lady” has higher TES than a male skater or skaters, the guys suck. It’s a really sexist way of looking at things IMO.
 

Ziotic

Medalist
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Dec 23, 2016
Why do people compare TES and total scores between male and female skaters? The implication seems to be that if a “lady” has higher TES than a male skater or skaters, the guys suck. It’s a really sexist way of looking at things IMO.

Also they had a different panel of judges so you aren’t comparing apples to apples either.
 

AnalyticalMind

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Feb 11, 2017
Why do people compare TES and total scores between male and female skaters? The implication seems to be that if a “lady” has higher TES than a male skater or skaters, the guys suck. It’s a really sexist way of looking at things IMO.

Feminism lesson: saying that the women rocked does not imply that the men were bad.

But joking aside, complimenting someone doesn't mean that you're dissing everyone else.
 

Colonel Green

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Mar 3, 2018
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Canada
Why do people compare TES and total scores between male and female skaters? The implication seems to be that if a “lady” has higher TES than a male skater or skaters, the guys suck. It’s a really sexist way of looking at things IMO.
When the men are generally attempting higher-level technical content (quads, especially), it is notable when they fall so short of women skaters whose base values are typically lower.
 

thexfireball

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Oct 12, 2018
Why do people compare TES and total scores between male and female skaters? The implication seems to be that if a “lady” has higher TES than a male skater or skaters, the guys suck. It’s a really sexist way of looking at things IMO.

Because it’s fun 😋
 

surimi

Onward and forward, Sota!
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When the men are generally attempting higher-level technical content (quads, especially), it is notable when they fall so short of women skaters whose base values are typically lower.

I am just a TV watching fan and not an expert, but to me the message seems clear from all the pops and splats so far in the season when even the best male skaters are struggling. There has to be something wrong with the demands on them under the new rules, and their bodies are struggling to cope. I hope the officials look into it before someone gets seriously hurt.
Also, regarding the endless comparisons of NHK ladies and men everywhere - we have a saying here: a joke retold a hundred times ceases to be a joke. I think it is time to move on, as the omnipresence of these comparisons is kind of tiring by now.
 

Jeanie19

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Oct 20, 2017
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I am just a TV watching fan and not an expert, but to me the message seems clear from all the pops and splats so far in the season when even the best male skaters are struggling. There has to be something wrong with the demands on them under the new rules, and their bodies are struggling to cope. I hope the officials look into it before someone gets seriously hurt.
Also, regarding the endless comparisons of NHK ladies and men everywhere - we have a saying here: a joke retold a hundred times ceases to be a joke. I think it is time to move on, as the omnipresence of these comparisons is kind of tiring by now.

:agree: And have you noticed how winded and sweaty the men seem after a skate. It needs to be reviewed and not after the Olympics!!!!
 

Tavi...

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Feb 10, 2014
Feminism lesson: saying that the women rocked does not imply that the men were bad.

But joking aside, complimenting someone doesn't mean that you're dissing everyone else.

Of course, but my point was really that you can say a woman rocks very simply.

Think about what Colonel Green is saying: guys are expected to be able to do quads or “difficult content.” Those who can’t are looked down on. The ultimate put down in sports is usually to say that a girl can beat you at whatever. When someone says a guy “throws like a girl” it’s never meant as a compliment. JMO.
 

TallyT

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Apr 23, 2018
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Australia
When the men are generally attempting higher-level technical content (quads, especially), it is notable when they fall so short of women skaters whose base values are typically lower.

I also think if the women had had a time change - either way - they would be struggling as well, even the younger ones... muscle memory is a powerful thing, especially when they have to pack harder into already packed programs.
 

Arriba627

TWO-TIME WORLD CHAMPION 🔥
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Also, regarding the endless comparisons of NHK ladies and men everywhere - we have a saying here: a joke retold a hundred times ceases to be a joke. I think it is time to move on, as the omnipresence of these comparisons is kind of tiring by now.

Thank you!
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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I totally agree with @Tavi. And I will say that I will not let go either.:laugh:

Women indeed rock. They rock on their own. :hap10: They do not need to be compared to men to prove that they rock. That to me appears sexist, to say that women need to be judged against men to prove their worth. I’ve spent much of my career combatting that kind of thinking.

It also appears to me to be demeaning to men. :disapp: Those of us of a certain age remember those sexist childhood taunts to boys, nyah nyah nyah, you got beat by a girl. That may not be the intent of the post, but I’m afraid it will come across that way.:confused2:

And with different judging panels, the comparison simply makes no sense. :scratch2:

Let’s celebrate the ladies, and the men, on their own!:agree:
 
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ladyjane

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Jun 26, 2012
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Netherlands
It never is, I know. But why? Why is it meant as something negative to throw/act/jump like a girl? I think that's the whole point. I never look down on guys who can't do quads, but I still like it when they can. I don't think they're girlish if they can't, and even so, what's wrong with being girlish? That's the mysogynistic part, not the comparison as such.
 

sheetz

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Jan 10, 2015
The men's vs lady's score comparisons are fun, but the fact is that there's a lot of "grading on a curve" within each discipline. It's practically a requirement to have at least a 3A to even be invited to a men's GP event. Without at least a 3A you'd also be buried in the PCS no matter how well you skated.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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It never is, I know. But why? Why is it meant as something negative to throw/act/jump like a girl? I think that's the whole point. I never look down on guys who can't do quads, but I still like it when they can. I don't think they're girlish if they can't, and even so, what's wrong with being girlish? That's the mysogynistic part, not the comparison as such.

Well of course it should not be, :( and I would hope we have grown.

Which is also the problem. Why is it so “impressive” (or funny, which is just mocking someone) that a lady scored higher than a man? Why should we care? Why is beating a *man* some kind of measurement?:confused:

Let’s celebrate the ladies who beat all the other impressive and wonderful ladies. That’s the :yahoo: and :clap: we should celebrate.
 

ladyjane

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Well of course it should not be, :( and I would hope we have grown.

Which is also the problem. Why is it so “impressive” (or funny, which is just mocking someone) that a lady scored higher than a man? Why should we care? Why is beating a *man* some kind of measurement?:confused:

Let’s celebrate the ladies who beat all the other impressive and wonderful ladies. That’s the :yahoo: and :clap: we should celebrate.

Exactly. Totally on board!
 

moriel

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Mar 18, 2015
Which is also the problem. Why is it so “impressive” (or funny, which is just mocking someone) that a lady scored higher than a man? Why should we care? Why is beating a *man* some kind of measurement?:confused:

1. Men have different PCs factorings (1 and 2 instead of 0.8 and 1.6). That is 5-8 points in short and 10-16 points in free skate. Because of this, when a lady scores higher than a man, it is impressive. Because that is one big score.
2. Traditionally, men do a lot of extremely expensive elements that ladies don't: 3As and Quads. When one can compete as equal with those, it is impressive.

Beating a *man* is a measurment because they have higher scores, so it is a measurment of outstanding score.
 

Baron Vladimir

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Dec 18, 2014
Also, the poster clearly said that the point of comparasion is to prove how ladies competition was good. He/she was not saying anything about men - how they were skating badly or anything negative about them. It is you reading it that way.
 

Globetrotter

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Jan 17, 2014
1. Men have different PCs factorings (1 and 2 instead of 0.8 and 1.6). That is 5-8 points in short and 10-16 points in free skate. Because of this, when a lady scores higher than a man, it is impressive. Because that is one big score.
2. Traditionally, men do a lot of extremely expensive elements that ladies don't: 3As and Quads. When one can compete as equal with those, it is impressive.

Beating a *man* is a measurment because they have higher scores, so it is a measurment of outstanding score.

Actually, Rika already achieved something similar in her junior days when she won the JGP Ljubljana with 3A and 8x clean triples. Her FS scores would have gotten her I think like 2nd in the JGP boys comp without any factoring of PCS. To me, that was a big achievement for her and she also rattled Zagitova with her performance that the latter uncharacteristically messed up. Back in the late 80s and early 90s, Midori Ito with her 3A and 3-3 and 7 triple programme was pretty much skating the same content as her male peers. That is not to say that the guys were awful but it’s just that skaters like Midori and Rika were/are exceptional. They don’t come around often and they should be appreciated. 3A wise for the ladies, Midori still remains the gold standard (IMO) with her big jump height and distance covered and that she never looked close to UR despite her not being an exceptionally fast rotator.
 

TallyT

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Apr 23, 2018
Country
Australia
The whole argument's a bit of a furphy anyway, unless you compare like with like. Rika's adjusted score vs Shoma, Alina's adjusted vs Yuzu, whoever came in lower positions vs their equivalent. Arguing that the woman who won is better than the men way down the scale and that actually means anything is rather silly and stale.

I'm too bad at maths to try doing it....
 
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