Triple Axel vs. Quads

maggieanne · Nov 14, 2018

Recently I've noticed that a lot of the young girls learning higher level jumps seem to either learn a 3 axel or or quads, but not really both. For example, there is a lot of talk about Alena Kostornaia doing a triple axel while I haven't really heard anything about her doing quads and Sasha Trusova has been doing all sorts of quads but I haven't seen anything about her doing triple axel. Its not just the girls though, there are men who have several quads but still have shaky or inconsistent axels.

Why do you think it is skaters pick one or the other? and what do you think influences skaters to skip the triple axel and go straight to quads?

Or, do you disagree with me? What do you think?

drivingmissdaisy · Nov 14, 2018

I think you need better technique to do the 3A, because almost all of the ladies' quads we see are pre-rotated. I still don't think (?) anyone has had a ratified quad as a senior, whereas almost all (maybe all?) of the women who have landed the 3A have done so as a senior.

Harriet · Nov 14, 2018

maggieanne said:
Why do you think it is skaters pick one or the other? and what do you think influences skaters to skip the triple axel and go straight to quads?

Well, partly there's the fact that the forward takeoff on the axel can be trickier, and scarier, than the takeoffs of other jumps according to some skaters, though you'd think it would be the other way around! And I seem to remember reading something about how the check-out point for a 3A feels counterintuitive compared to other triples and quads, which makes it harder to get into muscle memory and also harder to get the landing. But I also think part of the reason skaters can struggle on the 3A where they don't (so much) on quads is to do with how the focus of the sport has changed - specifically, the shift from compulsory figures to moves in the field. Axels seem to drive from the thighs more where the other triples and quads drive more from the calves, and moves in the field develop the calves whereas compulsory figures helped develop the thighs. The current women jumping the 3A have strong thighs and calves and a classic (or some might say old-fashioned) leg-driven jumping technique, whereas the girls working on quads seem to have stronger calves than thighs (possibly because they're s bit younger and haven't hit their full growth yet) and a technique that uses the upper body too, which I suspect would make maintaining the axis on a 3A and therefore landing it harder. That may be part of why some don't bother with trying the 3A but go straight to quads. You do the stuff you can do if you want to get the points!

Plus, there's also the fact that all these jumps are just plain difficult, and only a comparatively small number of even elite skaters will be able to do them consistently well, which is kind of the point!

colormyworld240 · Nov 14, 2018

There is only one 3A, but five quads. So the skater will do whichever they're more comfortable with. The stats may look like people go for quads more than 3As are, but really, there are 6 jumps, and not really axel vs quads. I think it just skews the perception a bit.

moriel · Nov 14, 2018

For juniors, there is no advantage in learning a 3A, since they cannot do a 3A in short. A quad will enable them to score higher, with a similar level of difficulty.
Also, GOE factoring on quads is higher.

For seniors... Comparing Rika and Trusova, i'd say that quad still brings higher scores.

Trusova TES
44.06 (SP) + 86.26 (FS, 4Lz< 4Tfall, 4T+3T clean) = 130,32
44.18 (SP) + 85.20 (FS, 4Lz clean) = 129,38

Rika TES
40.67 (SP, 3A fall) + 81.05 (FS, 3A+3T clean, 3A clean) = 121,72
38.40 (SP, 3A fall) + 87.17 (FS, 3A+3T clean, 3A clean) = 125,57

Trusova gets TES around 130 across 2 programs, with 4 attempts and 50% success rate on her quads.
Rika gets TES around 124 across 2 programs, with 6 attempts and 66% success rate on her 3A.
So with lower success rate and lower number of attempts Trusova still gets higher TES. I mean, it is debatable, different skaters, different competitions, different content, but it looks like quads score pretty well.

Sam-Skwantch · Nov 14, 2018

drivingmissdaisy said:
I think you need better technique to do the 3A, because almost all of the ladies' quads we see are pre-rotated. I still don't think (?) anyone has had a ratified quad as a senior, whereas almost all (maybe all?) of the women who have landed the 3A have done so as a senior.

I think Sasha will go for a 3a and I think her jump technique will allow for it. Her 2a is so smooth and confidently executed.

moriel · Nov 14, 2018

drivingmissdaisy said:
I think you need better technique to do the 3A, because almost all of the ladies' quads we see are pre-rotated. I still don't think (?) anyone has had a ratified quad as a senior, whereas almost all (maybe all?) of the women who have landed the 3A have done so as a senior.

Also pretty sure Liza did 3A as junior too, it was mentioned several times.
Rika did 3A as junior too.
Mao landed her first ratified 3A also as junior.

Basically, most girls who had a ratified 3A as seniors started training it and even got it ratified as juniors.

It actually makes sense to expect, based on this, that now that junior ladies started jumping a lot of quads, in a year or two they will also have those quads ratified on senior level.

macy · Nov 14, 2018

when girls begin learning double axels and triples, sometimes a sal or a toe is easier than learning an axel. i was an example of this, although i never consistently landed those jumps, 3S's were way easier for me to attempt than a 2A. axels truly are HARD, even though they are usually the first jump you learn as you up your difficulty, and i really believe it is due to the forward takeoff. i had a natural waxel-y free leg that went around rather than up, which is why i had so much trouble trying 2A's, but there absolutely is less control on a forward takeoff than a backward one.

hanyuufan5 · Nov 14, 2018

In addition to what's been mentioned, there are also "toe jumpers" vs. "edge jumpers". For some, it's significantly harder to do a good jump without toe pick assistance (or vice versa).

Shayuki · Nov 14, 2018

I think that the body type is an important factor. Axel seems to favor more "bulky" builds, such as Midori Ito's. It tends to be more difficult for the skinnier type, which is what Eteri's girls tend to be.

Trusova actually attempted 3A before quads. It wasn't very successful, so they switched to 4S, which ended up working better for her. As far as I know, Shcherbakova also has been training 3A for quite a while but I'm not sure about any plans to include it. Both Trusova and Shcherbakova have performed good off-ice 3As but I'm not sure whether that means a whole lot.

oatmella · Nov 14, 2018

TSL interview with Nathan from 2015: ‘What about the axel do you think makes it harder for you than the quad?’
https://youtu.be/1s4iJf5Zsrw?t=6m08s

He said quads are more about power, 3A requires finesse and exact technique

drivingmissdaisy · Nov 14, 2018

moriel said:
Also pretty sure Liza did 3A as junior too, it was mentioned several times.
Rika did 3A as junior too.
Mao landed her first ratified 3A also as junior.

Yes, Liza was doing 3A's at 12 or 13, but all also landed the jumps as seniors so their technique survived their growth spurt (except Rika, but she looks like she may keep her 3A for the long term, too).

Skater Boy · Nov 14, 2018

maggieanne said:
Recently I've noticed that a lot of the young girls learning higher level jumps seem to either learn a 3 axel or or quads, but not really both. For example, there is a lot of talk about Alena Kostornaia doing a triple axel while I haven't really heard anything about her doing quads and Sasha Trusova has been doing all sorts of quads but I haven't seen anything about her doing triple axel. Its not just the girls though, there are men who have several quads but still have shaky or inconsistent axels.

Why do you think it is skaters pick one or the other? and what do you think influences skaters to skip the triple axel and go straight to quads?

Or, do you disagree with me? What do you think?

I think regardless of what is valued more some jumps are just easier for certain skaters to learn and they gravitate to that as a result.

That being said for ladies if you had a choice you should learn the 3A first. If you can land it it is a HUge advantage in the short program. Likewise in pairs, a throw 3A is worth a lot and you can do it in the short but not a quad. Still it depends on what is easiest for you and your giftings and or style.

Of course other influences are point values and the jumping craze.

moriel · Nov 14, 2018

Skater Boy said:
I think regardless of what is valued more some jumps are just easier for certain skaters to learn and they gravitate to that as a result.

That being said for ladies if you had a choice you should learn the 3A first. If you can land it it is a HUge advantage in the short program. Likewise in pairs, a throw 3A is worth a lot and you can do it in the short but not a quad. Still it depends on what is easiest for you and your giftings and or style.

Of course other influences are point values and the jumping craze.

Actually, that is not true. 3A does not give you a HUGE advantage in SP.

Rika would get something around 46,5 for a clean SP with 3A. Trusova gets 44.0 for hers, without 3A. Rika's jump BV in SP is 23,99. Trusova's BV in SP is 20,48. 2.5 points difference =)
Now, there is this thing - without a 3A/quad in SP, it is likely that a skater will be able to pull out a harder layout (3Lz-3Lo in second half, for example).
3A/Quad is a higher risc element, also - sometimes you win a couple of points, but chances of messing up and losing a lot are higher too.

So far, we are yet to see a lady who can pull out a layout like 3A, 3F, 3Lz+3Lo in SP. That would be indeed a huge advantage if done with some consistency, and if everything else is clean regardless 3A.

Basicaly... I just look at what skaters currently do. Trusova's and Shcherbakova's quads seem to give them more advantage than 3A gives to Rika.

Miller · Nov 15, 2018

It's definitely better to do quads in Juniors, because you can't do them or 3A's in the SP, plus it maybe easier to add further quads because the latter are all backwards take-off.

However in seniors it's not so clear cut, at least initially, because you can do a 3A in the SP but not a quad.

Points wise you gain 4.7 points in BV (plus any potential GOE) by replacing a 2A, so doing a 3A in both SP, plus LP, gains you 9.4 points in BV, which is more than even replacing a 2A with a 4Lz. However of course you do have to do 2 jumps rather than 1, plus after that further quads are a lot in favour of the quad jumper as each new one keeps gaining several points (you still need an Axel jump though, so can't replace your 2nd 2A, it has to be triples from then on).

Also Rika's 2nd 3A doesn't gain her a lot in the LP because of the Zayak rules. She either has to drop a 3Lz to accommodate it, gaining 2.1 points, or drop a -3T to a -2T before replacing her 2nd 2A. This just gains 1.8 points, but, as above, the 2nd quad will always gain several points.

One other thing to bear in mind is that a 3A may well put you in a better position going into the LP. It doesn't matter as much these days, skaters can can move up the rankings a lot in the LP, one really good thing about IJS. However it's probably better to still be in the final group rather than the penultimate one.

Overall I would expect one or two of Eteri's youngsters to start doing 3A's for the above reasons, especially if they're not going to be a multi-quad jumper. They're probably well capable, and as above there's not been a lot of incentive for them to do them in juniors.

drivingmissdaisy · Nov 15, 2018

moriel said:
Actually, that is not true. 3A does not give you a HUGE advantage in SP.

I think it does give you a reasonable advantage, because you can fall and as long as you fully rotate your 3A, the mistake doesn't take you out of the running. Even with a 3A<, Rika's SP score of 69.59 at NHK tops a lot of skaters' clean program score and leaves her within striking distance of the leaders.

moriel · Nov 15, 2018

drivingmissdaisy said:
I think it does give you a reasonable advantage, because you can fall and as long as you fully rotate your 3A, the mistake doesn't take you out of the running. Even with a 3A<, Rika's SP score of 69.59 at NHK tops a lot of skaters' clean program score and leaves her within striking distance of the leaders.

So, we are discussing 3A vs quads here.

Rika got 3.00 for her 3A and a -1 fall deduction. With a clean 3A, she would have gotten something like 11.00 (her FS 3A), and a total of 78,5 or so in SP. Yep, that is a high score, but top ladies can currently score 75+. With clean SP, she would have like 2-4 points advantage against a top lady with quad.

Now, once in FS, two quads beats 2 3As simply because higher BV and GOE factoring.

There is no big advantage in 3A. It does not set you miles apart from the rest of the field in short, and in free it can be beaten by a quad quite easily.

oatmella · Nov 15, 2018

I believe Rika is training 4S, 4T - so it is possible we will see a FS with 3A’s and quads.

It also remains to be seen if ladies skater is able to jump quads into their senior career, and to continue the advantage of having quads. Not saying it can’t happen - it just hasn’t happened yet. 3A has already been done successfully by grown women, so there is less unknown about it.

neusw · Nov 15, 2018

moriel said:
So, we are discussing 3A vs quads here.

Rika got 3.00 for her 3A and a -1 fall deduction. With a clean 3A, she would have gotten something like 11.00 (her FS 3A), and a total of 78,5 or so in SP. Yep, that is a high score, but top ladies can currently score 75+. With clean SP, she would have like 2-4 points advantage against a top lady with quad.

Now, once in FS, two quads beats 2 3As simply because higher BV and GOE factoring.

There is no big advantage in 3A. It does not set you miles apart from the rest of the field in short, and in free it can be beaten by a quad quite easily.

Doing 3As didn't even give a huge advantage in the pre-quad days against well-executed triples+2A programs (see Mao, Elizaveta T, Marai). Assuming equivalent rate of success, and being able to perform the rest of the program well, there is definitely no advantage comparing 3As to quads.

Anyway, this topic keeps coming up repeatedly this season, probably because of some perceived deficiency in the junior ladies being able to do multiple quads without showing 3As. I'm still of the opinion that these girls haven't reached their technical peak, and I fully expect at least one if not all of the Eteri wonderbabies to show up to seniors next year with 3As in their programs. I mean, in 8 months I went from thinking the 4Lz was a technical impossibility for ladies to now expecting multiple 4Lzs from multiple skaters. That's an insane rate of technical progress.

drivingmissdaisy · Nov 15, 2018

neusw said:
Doing 3As didn't even give a huge advantage in the pre-quad days against well-executed triples+2A programs (see Mao, Elizaveta T, Marai). Assuming equivalent rate of success, and being able to perform the rest of the program well, there is definitely no advantage comparing 3As to quads.

Well, for Mao she unfortunately gave up points for not doing a 3-3 in the SP most of the time, so any benefit she gets from the harder axel is negated with fewer points on the combination compared to skaters like Yuna. A few of her other jumps were dicey too, like the salchow and the lutz. I do think the 3A helps Liza a lot because it sets her apart from the field and probably gives her a bit of a PCS boost. Mirai achieved her career best LP score when she landed the 3A at the Olympics. Maybe it's not a huge advantage, but many podiums are decided by just a few points (or less), so any advantage is important.

Triple Axel vs. Quads

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