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Thread: Lutz vs Axel base value

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    Lutz vs Axel base value

    Hey guys. I was looking at jump base values and stumbled upon the base values for jumps. Here are the base values for lutzes and axels.

    1Lz: 0.60
    1A: 1.10

    2Lz: 2.10
    2A: 3.30

    3Lz: 5.90
    3A: 8.00

    4Lz: 11.50
    4A: 12.50

    So ISU is telling me that the reward for doing a 4A over a 4Lz is less than the reward for doing a 2A over a 2Lz? With all of the other quads, the increment from T to S to Lo to F to Lz is greater than the corresponding increment for triples, so it's an axel-specific thing, not just a way to temper the value of quads. This is a little puzzling IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lzxnl View Post
    So ISU is telling me that the reward for doing a 4A over a 4Lz is less than the reward for doing a 2A over a 2Lz? With all of the other quads, the increment from T to S to Lo to F to Lz is greater than the corresponding increment for triples, so it's an axel-specific thing, not just a way to temper the value of quads. This is a little puzzling IMO.
    I think figure skating judging is basically mostly a bunch of non-math types randomly assigning numbers to things they like or dislike. It does not make 'sense' so don't try to understand it. Just roll with it or go another direction, like opt out of competition and just skate for shows and pleasure :D

    Edit to add: once someone lands one in competition (very soon) they'll probably change the value of the 4A and make it higher. Right now they don't care because no one has landed one in competition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VegMom View Post
    Edit to add: once someone lands one in competition (very soon) they'll probably change the value of the 4A and make it higher. Right now they don't care because no one has landed one in competition.
    I think that's true. For all the other jumps (singles, doubles and triples) the Axel is grouped with the higher-revolution jumps. For instance a 1A is listed with the double jumps, a 2A is grouped with the triple jumps, and a 3A leads off the list of "quads" -- like it is regarded as the lowest quad rather than the highest triple. (They round up when it comes to half revolutions. )

    If they followed that pattern, a 4A would begin the list of quints. The ISU hasn't really thought that far ahead, yet.

    Strictly mathematically, all quads are undervalued. I think this is on purpose. They don't want quads to be worth so much that a skater can win just by doing 6 quads and not bothering with any spins, footwork, etc. I am pretty sure that this is what was behind the recent rule changes that limited the number of quads that can be repeated, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post

    Strictly mathematically, all quads are undervalued. I think this is on purpose. They don't want quads to be worth so much that a skater can win just by doing 6 quads and not bothering with any spins, footwork, etc. I am pretty sure that this is what was behind the recent rule changes that limited the number of quads that can be repeated, etc.
    This is true. I agree that the quads were deliberately undervalued in the last rule change. However, the quad axel value is still inconsistent with the values of the other quads and the triple axel. Although you're right, it'll be interesting to see what happens if Yuzuru does land his 4A (we'll see if his ankle holds up)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think that's true. For all the other jumps (singles, doubles and triples) the Axel is grouped with the higher-revolution jumps. For instance a 1A is listed with the double jumps, a 2A is grouped with the triple jumps, and a 3A leads off the list of "quads" -- like it is regarded as the lowest quad rather than the highest triple. (They round up when it comes to half revolutions. )

    If they followed that pattern, a 4A would begin the list of quints. The ISU hasn't really thought that far ahead, yet.

    Strictly mathematically, all quads are undervalued. I think this is on purpose. They don't want quads to be worth so much that a skater can win just by doing 6 quads and not bothering with any spins, footwork, etc. I am pretty sure that this is what was behind the recent rule changes that limited the number of quads that can be repeated, etc.
    I agree in the main, but I think the 4A going from BV of 15 to 12.5 is also largely due to the 4A being theoretical at the moment. If it retained its old BV with only the 10% BV reduction all the quads were absolutely getting going into this season, the 4A would be worth 13.5. So 12.5 is basically the compromise, and it does make some sense — one of the more noticeable trends in the new SoV is the reduction in difference between a Lutz and a flip, regardless of the number of revolutions. So if the 4Lz is 11.5, the 4A being 12.5 is still a larger gap between the 4A and the next highest BV quad. The Salchow to the loop is 0.80 points, the next largest.

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    Honestly, the quad values for jumps above the salchow read a little to me like whoever came up with them were just prioritizing making the BVs easy to remember. 10.5 for 4Lo, 11 for 4F, 11.5 for 4Lz, 12.5 for 4A--nice, neat increments of 0.5, and then an increment of 1 between 4Lz and 4A. Of course, it makes no sense from the perspective of the actual sport.

    Strictly mathematically, all quads are undervalued. I think this is on purpose. They don't want quads to be worth so much that a skater can win just by doing 6 quads and not bothering with any spins, footwork, etc. I am pretty sure that this is what was behind the recent rule changes that limited the number of quads that can be repeated, etc.
    This wouldn't be a problem if PCS were judged more accurately. If skaters didn't get PCS bonuses for tech content, then an empty 6 quad FS with shoddy footwork/spins would still struggle to outscore a well rounded program with lower tech content but higher quality all around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shanshani View Post
    Honestly, the quad values for jumps above the salchow read a little to me like whoever came up with them were just prioritizing making the BVs easy to remember. 10.5 for 4Lo, 11 for 4F, 11.5 for 4Lz, 12.5 for 4A--nice, neat increments of 0.5, and then an increment of 1 between 4Lz and 4A. Of course, it makes no sense from the perspective of the actual sport.
    I actually rather like the new SoV. For women, the 3Lz is no longer the be-all and end-all of competitive BV, to the point where including a planned flutz is absolutely worth it simply from a mathematical perspective. The 4Lz was also worth entirely too much in the old SoV — a rotated 4Lz that ended in a fall was worth 9.6 points. Even if you attach the mandatory -1 TSS deduction to that element, a splatted 4Lz was still worth 8.6... or more than a 3A with neutral GOE (8.5 versus 8.6). The 4Lo, which is rarer than the 4F and the 4Lz, was worth a full 1.6 points less in BV, compared to -1.0 and -0.50 versus the 4Lz and 4F, respectively, under the new SoV. While some of the scaling is definitely a bit wonky, the overall compression in the difference between absolute BV is one change I think is for the best — a clean quad with modest (+2) to outstanding (+4-+5) GOE is still worth an enormous number of points, but the 4Lz is no longer so overvalued that we’re seeing a dozen and a half guys have a splatty and/or messy 4Lz ratified, since a bad 4Lz is worth less than a clean 4S. Progress!

    There’s an argument to be made that the 4Lz and the 4F are still overvalued (which is one reason I think making relative BV more equitable is a good idea). Last season, we had 17 guys have a 4Lz ratified by TPs, if I recall correctly. The only men doing the 4Lo are Nathan Chen, Shoma Uno, and Yuzuru Hanyu, with Alex Krasnozhon and Daniel Grassl also having a 4Lo ratified, though neither Uno nor Chen has included a 4Lo in their programmes this year — so that leaves Grassl and Hanyu. For the 4F, Chen, Uno, and Zhou are at least three who are regularly performing the jump, though the 4Lz is still more common than either the 4F or the 4Lo by a huge margin. That’s a pretty telling pattern, at least to me — there’s a reasonable argument that the 4Lo is actually harder than the 4Lz for senior men, for a whole variety of reasons: men are more likely to have edge issues with the flip than the Lutz; the Lutz is a toe jump and as such it’s easier to gain more height for the 4Lz whereas the 4Lo relies more on rotational efficiency; the physics of the 4Lo are harder, especially for men (who tend to have a weaker sense of balance than women), which makes the takeoff more difficult than that of the 4Lz (which is why we don’t see too many guys with -3Lo combos, and it’s rather notable that one exception in Rippon was someone who could also perform a layback — which also takes exceptional balance). It could also be that the 4Lz’s monstrous point total encouraged more men to simply skip the lower BV quads and attempt the 4Lz, and that’s why we saw so many skaters have one ratified last season, but I don’t think that’s the only reason. My guess is that (1) the 4Lo really is more difficult than its valued at and (2) the old SoV also encouraged everyone to just go for the 4Lz if they were going to try for a quad.

    The quad repetition rule is where I think the ISU lost its mind, but that’s a different issue.

    This wouldn't be a problem if PCS were judged more accurately. If skaters didn't get PCS bonuses for tech content, then an empty 6 quad FS with shoddy footwork/spins would still struggle to outscore a well rounded program with lower tech content but higher quality all around.
    Join those of us on Team Sane in our years-long push for ISU to just... change PCS factoring already. Doing so would solve a number of problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shanshani View Post
    Honestly, the quad values for jumps above the salchow read a little to me like whoever came up with them were just prioritizing making the BVs easy to remember. 10.5 for 4Lo, 11 for 4F, 11.5 for 4Lz, 12.5 for 4A--nice, neat increments of 0.5...
    That's the way is was when the CoP first came out. 2A= 3.5, 3t= 4.0, 3S =4.5, 3Lo = 5.0, 3F =5.5 and 3Lz=6.0. All neat and tidy. . Then they stared wondering if maybe the 3Lo should b 5.1 and the 3F 5.3, etc. An improvement, I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metis
    There’s a reasonable argument that the 4Lo is actually harder than the 4Lz for senior men, for a whole variety of reasons: men are more likely to have edge issues with the flip than the Lutz; the Lutz is a toe jump and as such it’s easier to gain more height for the 4Lz whereas the 4Lo relies more on rotational efficiency; the physics of the 4Lo are harder, especially for men (who tend to have a weaker sense of balance than women), which makes the takeoff more difficult than that of the 4Lz (which is why we don’t see too many guys with -3Lo.
    I agree: the loop is the Rodney Dangerfield of ice skating ("I don't get no respect!) As for the difference between men and women -- do men really have a weaker sense of balance than women? Is that why only women gymnasts do the balance beam?)

    I always wondered, since the loop is so hard, why the first triple jump (1952) was a loop rather than a toe or Salchow, which are universally considered easier.

    Also the maxim, women fLutz, men 'lip, is quite apparent statistically. I don't know why.

    But yeah, for whatever reason, the quad Lutz does seem to be quite within the range of many men who never attempt a quad loop. There is also the issue that repetitions of loop jumps wreck havoc on your hips.
    Last edited by Mathman; 12-05-2018 at 05:05 PM.

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    Lutz vs Axel base value

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I agree: the loop is the Rodney Dangerfield of ice skating ("I don't get no respect!) As for the difference between men and women -- do men really have a weaker sense of balance than women? Is that why only women gymnasts do the balance beam?)
    Balance is different between the sexes. (I don’t know why HuffPo blogged a physio text, but good work! The waist/waste error is funny, though.) Women have a lower centre of gravity, hence better balance than men. (In the main. I’m sure there are exceptions.) Anecdotally, it’s really noticeable — I had a second growth spurt late in my teens, and there was basically a year in which I tripped over nothing and everything (including flying and then bouncing across the middle of a street while cars were driving — lucky break that I was unharmed... and ask me about the time I Wiley E. Coyote’d into a snowbank and another student had to fish me out). That was actually my centre of gravity shifting (without my really noticing I had grown two and a half inches until all my pants became Grandpa Capris). None of my male friends ever experienced anything as severe when they grew like weeds, even though I wound up taller than more than a few of them.

    In terms of male skaters and loop combos... there was Rippon, basically, who also had a layback spin. Gumennik in juniors does 3A-3Lo, though I’d be downgrading that -3Lo most of the time if I were on the tech panel. (Doesn’t mean I don’t love him for going for it, though.)

    Also, A+ for the Dangerfield reference, +ALL THE GOE and 50 points to Hufflepuff.

    I always wondered, since the loop is so hard, why the first triple jump (1952) was a loop rather than a toe or Salchow, which are universally considered easier.
    Maybe we can ask Button himself, given his presence on Twitter? He is responsible for both the first triple and the first 2A in competition. That’s a good question, though, and one I hadn’t really thought much about, as there don’t seem to be an obvious gender-related trends in terms of edge versus toe jump preference.

    Also the maxim, women fLutz, men 'lip, is quite apparent statistically. I don't know why.
    Doug Haw has suggested differing proportions between the sexes (women having wider hips and narrower shoulders relative to men) has something to do with it, which is an opinion I’ve heard before. (See ~37:00.) Of course, plenty of female skaters have true Lutzes, but I think some of the issue is probably just down to women tending to have wider hips, or at least that makes sense to me on a basic physics level. On top of that, there’s more variety in Lutz technique now — which starts the debate over whether it’s really a Lutz if the edge is correct at the moment of takeoff but the jump has little to no counter-rotation.

    But yeah, for whatever reason, the quad Lutz does seem to be quite within the range of many men who never attempt a quad loop. There is also the issue that repetitions of loop jumps wreck havoc on your hips.
    I think it’s a combination of things: Boyang showing that a stable 4Lz is very real and increasing commentator hype around the idea of the Era of the Quad Lutz (since the 4A isn’t practical, that makes the 4Lz the holy grail by default); the fact that the Lutz is easier than the flip for most men; the 4Lz’s obscene BV; toe jumps being easier to make “bigger” than edge jumps... and the fact that a lot of frankly questionable 4Lzs were being ratified. I never believed we were or are truly in the midst of an Epidemic of Quad Lutzes, and it’s interesting that while we still have more 4Lzs than 4Los, the overall number of 4Lzs seems to be less this season than last.

    Also, I Googled for the answer to your question on gymnastics. This was a really fun read. Women tend to have events that are more “leg” or lower-body focused in part due to gender norms simply making the idea of a woman doing the rings gasp! and also because of lower centre of gravity. Differing centres of gravity may explain why men have the pommel horse, where the balancing is done on the hands, and women the beam. Now I miss watching gymnastics... with my last breath, I curse you, Zoidberg Mathman!

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    While a 4A is disproportional score-wise, it honestly doesn't matter at this point if it's worth 12.5 points or 20 points. Skaters who are training it just care about being the first to land it, and only certain folks care about where or not it'll get them a sufficient amount of points in the event that they do. That's pretty much minutia.

    Brandon Mroz's first ever quad lutz got -GOE (likely due to a lack of steps + not being a top-tier skater... under the current IJS and were he one of the faves it probably would have gotten like a +1)... landing it got him 3rd in the SP, but it didn't help him from placing in 9th (last) overall.

    But who cares - he will always be the first person to land what's currently the hardest jump ever landed. http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._SP_Scores.pdf

    Whoever it is lands the first 4A I can assure you they won't be looking at the protocols to see if they got sufficient GOE for it.

    Congrats to Artur Dimitriev for the first 4A attempt... http://www.isuresults.com/results/se..._FS_Scores.pdf .. it was downgraded but at least he actually had the guts to bring it to competition!

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    Quote Originally Posted by VegMom View Post
    I think figure skating judging is basically mostly a bunch of non-math types randomly assigning numbers to things they like or dislike. It does not make 'sense' so don't try to understand it. Just roll with it or go another direction, like opt out of competition and just skate for shows and pleasure :D

    Edit to add: once someone lands one in competition (very soon) they'll probably change the value of the 4A and make it higher. Right now they don't care because no one has landed one in competition.

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