New system on old skates | Golden Skate

New system on old skates

CoyoteChris

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 4, 2004
This is probably a dead horse no one wants to beat but does anyone enjoy watching old skates and applying the new scoring system to them? I just watched a High Definition youtube of Katia and Sergei at '94 Lillihammer, two of my favorite skaters....I was just curious as to how it, the performance, would hold up in this era of very complex lifts.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkIK-JTI7Ls

:points: :medal":
 

Amei

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
I like to watch old skates and ignore the scores, but I think Grinkov/Gordeeva would score well because they executed everything so well that the +GOE would make up for lower base value.
 

Metis

Shepherdess of the Teal Deer
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 14, 2018
I barely remember the 6.0 era, due to age. A short while back, the US Ladies thread was discussing Hughes’ win at the SLC OWG and how Kwan needed only one change in ordinals to take the gold — and I admit, I wasn’t as familiar with the intricacies of tiebreakers and how placement was ultimately determined in the 6.0 system as I am with CoP. I have somewhat clearer memories of the early years of CoP, in which many skaters were transitioning from ordinals to CoP, and how little difference was visible at first, but my actual memories of skating come from the CoP-era. (And figures? I wasn’t even gestating when they were phased out! [emoji23])

That being said, I’ve watched plenty of 6.0-era skating, and it’s hard to shake CoP standards. I was actually educating my boyfriend on the history of skating and when we were watching Witt’s Carmen, I remarked that it was so hard not to apply the new rules — I was calling insufficient revs on spins, lack of features, etc., mostly out of force of habit. But even in my time as a skating fan, rules have changed and judges have become more willing to award +3 GOEs, so watching 6.0 skating is like watching older CoP skating when three 2As were allowed in the free or the men had two step sequences, or, ugh, the spiral sequence was mandatory. And if the skating is truly engrossing, I’m not likely to think of it in numbers. :p

That being said, it is fun to consider how different skaters would have fared under GOE 1.0, GOE 2.0, etc. Tonya Harding, for example, probably could have amassed a durable enough TES lead that anyone hoping to beat her in PCS would have needed to keep the TES margin down. (Harding’s Lutz was insane.) Kwan’s PCS would have been fodder for epic flamewars. Et cetera.

But I have a hard time really judging skating outside the context of its era — transitions may be the currency of our era, but they weren’t thought about nearly as much a decade ago. Does that mean a jump that satisfied all the expected criteria for the time and was flawless otherwise doesn’t deserve a +5 because the skater isn’t performing transitions that weren’t even thought of as necessary back then? What skaters were asked and expected to do has changed so much. Yuna’s 3Lz is forever the gold standard for me, even if she didn’t have crazy transitions in and out.
 

CoyoteChris

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 4, 2004
I barely remember the 6.0 era, due to age. A short while back, the US Ladies thread was discussing Hughes’ win at the SLC OWG and how Kwan needed only one change in ordinals to take the gold — and I admit, I wasn’t as familiar with the intricacies of tiebreakers and how placement was ultimately determined in the 6.0 system as I am with CoP. I have somewhat clearer memories of the early years of CoP, in which many skaters were transitioning from ordinals to CoP, and how little difference was visible at first, but my actual memories of skating come from the CoP-era. (And figures? I wasn’t even gestating when they were phased out! [emoji23])

That being said, I’ve watched plenty of 6.0-era skating, and it’s hard to shake CoP standards. I was actually educating my boyfriend on the history of skating and when we were watching Witt’s Carmen, I remarked that it was so hard not to apply the new rules — I was calling insufficient revs on spins, lack of features, etc., mostly out of force of habit. But even in my time as a skating fan, rules have changed and judges have become more willing to award +3 GOEs, so watching 6.0 skating is like watching older CoP skating when three 2As were allowed in the free or the men had two step sequences, or, ugh, the spiral sequence was mandatory. And if the skating is truly engrossing, I’m not likely to think of it in numbers. :p

That being said, it is fun to consider how different skaters would have fared under GOE 1.0, GOE 2.0, etc. Tonya Harding, for example, probably could have amassed a durable enough TES lead that anyone hoping to beat her in PCS would have needed to keep the TES margin down. (Harding’s Lutz was insane.) Kwan’s PCS would have been fodder for epic flamewars. Et cetera.

But I have a hard time really judging skating outside the context of its era — transitions may be the currency of our era, but they weren’t thought about nearly as much a decade ago. Does that mean a jump that satisfied all the expected criteria for the time and was flawless otherwise doesn’t deserve a +5 because the skater isn’t performing transitions that weren’t even thought of as necessary back then? What skaters were asked and expected to do has changed so much. Yuna’s 3Lz is forever the gold standard for me, even if she didn’t have crazy transitions in and out.

You said it all when you said what is asked of skaters is so different now.....I like to think Katia and Sergei would have made the transistion well with a good coach who knew how to use the system...maybe some skaters wouldnt have....I still like to watch the old 6.0 performances for what they are....performance art.
Still, we needed the new system and yes it needs to be tweeked but it is being tweeked...thank the heavens that the old back loaded programs are dead and gone...:agree:

I became very cynical about figure skating scoring under the old system, and the peak was the SLC OWG. Who won the pairs again? ;) One of those French judges, a lady, was terrified about what would happen to her if she didnt do "their" bidding. She confessed to US Judge Jon Jackson who then wrote his famous book that made me even more cynical...dont read it unless YOU want to be a cynical old person! :)
https://www.amazon.com/Edge-Backroom-Dealing-Cocktail-Scheming/dp/1560259531
 

Arriba627

TWO-TIME WORLD CHAMPION 🔥
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Joined
Jun 2, 2014
Country
United-States
I just watched a High Definition youtube of Katia and Sergei at '94 Lillihammer, two of my favorite skaters....I was just curious as to how it, the performance, would hold up in this era of very complex lifts.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkIK-JTI7Ls

:points: :medal":
I loved seeing this wonderful program again. It looks so different to see them doing double jumps. And how wonderful is it that he lifts her and she doesn't do the obligatory "grab the blade" thing. They were SO magical! I have no doubt that if they were competing in today's system, they would raise their tech. Now I have to watch the 1988 Calgary FS! :yahoo:

Adding -- Couldn't resist. The speed, the synchronicity. Oh my aching heart! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B0tSnQKzwo
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I find it fun to score pre-IJS programs according to the IJS rules in effect at the time that I'm scroing.

For PCS, and usually for GOEs (with the caveat of the change from +3/-3 to +5/-5) -- i.e., what the judges do -- the standards remain pretty much the same throughout the IJS era and applicable to earlier performances.

Tech panel calls, including whether certain elements would count at all due to changes in the well-balanced program or not meeting certain minimum requirements for spins, is more variable. Many elements would not count at all or would be level base. And even skaters who were attempting features that could earn them higher levels by some years' IJS rules might not get credit by another year's rules. Or they were obviously capable of various level features but they didn't combine the right combination of spin variations into the same spin, or hold the positions or edges long enough, to earn a feature according to any year's actual IJS rules.

These kinds of rules have changed more over the 15 year history of IJS, so that calls under 2005 rules, for example, could be very different than calls of the same elements by 2019 rules. The difference between << vs. < or e vs. ! jump calls could also make a difference.

Therefore it's not very meaningful to say "If this competition had been judged under IJS, Skater X would have won." Especially if part of the reason a result comes out differently is because of skaters losing credit for elements on technicalities of rules that weren't in effect when they planned their programs.

But it is interesting to see whether any elements would have qualifies for level 2 or higher. Or how we personally evaluate PCS and GOEs for pre-IJS performances according to IJS rules and mindsets.
 

CoyoteChris

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 4, 2004
I find it fun to score pre-IJS programs according to the IJS rules in effect at the time that I'm scroing.

For PCS, and usually for GOEs (with the caveat of the change from +3/-3 to +5/-5) -- i.e., what the judges do -- the standards remain pretty much the same throughout the IJS era and applicable to earlier performances.

Tech panel calls, including whether certain elements would count at all due to changes in the well-balanced program or not meeting certain minimum requirements for spins, is more variable. Many elements would not count at all or would be level base. And even skaters who were attempting features that could earn them higher levels by some years' IJS rules might not get credit by another year's rules. Or they were obviously capable of various level features but they didn't combine the right combination of spin variations into the same spin, or hold the positions or edges long enough, to earn a feature according to any year's actual IJS rules.

These kinds of rules have changed more over the 15 year history of IJS, so that calls under 2005 rules, for example, could be very different than calls of the same elements by 2019 rules. The difference between << vs. < or e vs. ! jump calls could also make a difference.

Therefore it's not very meaningful to say "If this competition had been judged under IJS, Skater X would have won." Especially if part of the reason a result comes out differently is because of skaters losing credit for elements on technicalities of rules that weren't in effect when they planned their programs.

But it is interesting to see whether any elements would have qualifies for level 2 or higher. Or how we personally evaluate PCS and GOEs for pre-IJS performances according to IJS rules and mindsets.

Very well said...thank you.....kind of an oblique "apples and oranges" thing. We can admire G/G for what they were in this skate, and, knowing the rules of 2018, it would be interesting to see them skate that routine upgraded and massaged....but for now, the skate is what it is.....very easy on the eyes, expressive, and lovely to watch. I would have stood up for them.....:agree:
 

Metis

Shepherdess of the Teal Deer
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 14, 2018
You said it all when you said what is asked of skaters is so different now.....I like to think Katia and Sergei would have made the transistion well with a good coach who knew how to use the system...maybe some skaters wouldnt have....I still like to watch the old 6.0 performances for what they are....performance art.
I think their best performances still stand the test of time — which is the most you can ask of older skates. And in terms of “performance art,” I think 6.0 was all about creating those kinds of moments. Not to say we haven’t seen programmes of equal artistic caliber under CoP, but the more skating becomes about quantifying levels and features and skaters are forced to add elements to check those boxes, the harder it becomes to enjoy the impact of an element, such as a lift, rather than checking The Box and/or to see if a team added the necessary frills for the levels (i.e., points). There are some lifts from the 6.0-era that would be considered “basic” under CoP, but a well-executed lift right on the music in which I’m not worried about someone falling or checking for the number of features ... I miss those.

Still, we needed the new system and yes it needs to be tweeked but it is being tweeked...thank the heavens that the old back loaded programs are dead and gone...:agree:
https://youtu.be/_lwp-T8-dus]TRIPLE LUTZ DOUBLE TOE![/URL] You don’t miss everyone heading to the Lutz corner at the start of their SP? :laugh2:

I became very cynical about figure skating scoring under the old system, and the peak was the SLC OWG. Who won the pairs again? ;)
The Russian AND the Canadian team. ;) I actually remember that — my mother had Today on when I’d eat breakfast for school, and that kept me updated on the drama. It was amazing.

I echo what gkelly wrote. It’s hard to separate skates from their time — if you go back to old performances and look for endless transitions, you’re going to be very disappointed. And it’s not always clear where skating is going under CoP (the old GOE system seemed to be about quality over raw difficulty, but then we had the quad BV changes, everyone got better at the backloading game, etc.). But knowing what the field will look like in however many years sometimes makes less beloved skaters seem prescient — I know Kimmie Meissner wasn’t exactly a paragon of artistry and lyrical skating, but she arguably had a better understanding of where skating was going than some of her contemporaries, for example.
 

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset
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Aug 12, 2014
Country
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I think their best performances still stand the test of time — which is the most you can ask of older skates. And in terms of “performance art,” I think 6.0 was all about creating those kinds of moments. Not to say we haven’t seen programmes of equal artistic caliber under CoP, but the more skating becomes about quantifying levels and features and skaters are forced to add elements to check those boxes, the harder it becomes to enjoy the impact of an element, such as a lift, rather than checking The Box and/or to see if a team added the necessary frills for the levels (i.e., points). There are some lifts from the 6.0-era that would be considered “basic” under CoP, but a well-executed lift right on the music in which I’m not worried about someone falling or checking for the number of features ... I miss those.

:2thumbs: So. Much. And this:

. And how wonderful is it that he lifts her and she doesn't do the obligatory "grab the blade" thing. They were SO magical! ....

Adding -- Couldn't resist. The speed, the synchronicity. Oh my aching heart! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B0tSnQKzwo

Oh, my aching heart, too. For so many things ... but I really miss the way emotion, performance, and Creating. The. Moment. made the difference in 6.0. It's still the essential element in figure skating for me. I think there's a trend back to that, with this year's changes. When I look at all the GPF results (esp. Rika Kihira, Hubbell and Donohue, and James and Cipres) I see that trend emerging and strengthening.

From the same 1994 competition, here's Mishketenok and Dmitriev. This performance still gives me thrills and chills, every time. The drama and the passion of this team are simply brilliant. Natalia brought her best technique in performance, no matter how many times she's missed a jump in practices all week. And if I'm not mistaken, M/D did TWO sbs triple toe passes, one near the end of the program. Plus a sbs 2Axel. They out-jumped G&G, esp because Sergei stepped out of a jump and singled a 2Flip.

That said, for me M/D also made Magic. Not with their jumps, but with their commitment to the music, the interpretation, the way they build the intensity of their skating right along with Rachmaninoff. I'll never forget the thrill of first seeing what they do beginning at 4:12. I feel their power and share their passion, every time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMGwRapz2do
:points:
 

Eloise14

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Yes, Sergei singled that jump but he did do that move where he got on his knees Katia got in his arms and he gracefully stood up on the ice.

I know this has been debated so many times over but the judges got it right in 1994. G&G had more lifts, that I believe were harder, and their split twist got more height and was executed perfectly.
 

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset
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I never did understand that move on Sergei's knees, lifting Katia that way. I still don't. But in general, I don't like self-referential programs; it's just me.

I'm not really debating whether the judges got it right. I just am obsessed with those two programs, in part because everything G&G did so well was almost diametrically opposite to everything that M&D did so well. I probably should have led with this: I'm a true G&G fanatic; I only started watching figure skating at all because of them. Those two pairs teams, and those two programs in particular, are a case study in the idea that figure skating is about emotion and personal preference, and there really is something for everybody.

And I think both teams, and both skates, stand up well, whatever system one uses for evaluating them.
:points:
 

Arriba627

TWO-TIME WORLD CHAMPION 🔥
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Joined
Jun 2, 2014
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That said, for me M/D also made Magic. Not with their jumps, but with their commitment to the music, the interpretation, the way they build the intensity of their skating right along with Rachmaninoff. I'll never forget the thrill of first seeing what they do beginning at 4:12. I feel their power and share their passion, every time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMGwRapz2do
:points:

A Moskvina pair -- yes! They are amazing. Mishketenok's flexibility is phenomenal and they use it in such innovative ways. Couldn't resist watching the next You Tube too that came up, their Liebestraume.
 

Amei

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
I never did understand that move on Sergei's knees, lifting Katia that way. I still don't. But in general, I don't like self-referential programs; it's just me.

I'm not really debating whether the judges got it right. I just am obsessed with those two programs, in part because everything G&G did so well was almost diametrically opposite to everything that M&D did so well. I probably should have led with this: I'm a true G&G fanatic; I only started watching figure skating at all because of them. Those two pairs teams, and those two programs in particular, are a case study in the idea that figure skating is about emotion and personal preference, and there really is something for everybody.

And I think both teams, and both skates, stand up well, whatever system one uses for evaluating them.
:points:

Would that be allowed now or would it constitute a fall? Sergei was kneeling on the ice, resting his full weight on his knees.
 
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