US Coaches restricted by SafeSport | Page 12 | Golden Skate

US Coaches restricted by SafeSport

ribbit

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
That is disgusting if true. You accuse someone and after they take their own life due to your allegations you stop the investigation with no closure? Is there any group that does not want the investigation to finish so we can find out what the truth actually is? Do the cops stop investigating a murder when the suspect takes their own life? Never. So unprofessional.

I really hate the idea of SafeSport. Sexual misconduct is not a figure skating thing, or sport thing. If someone is a sex offender and unfit to interact with certain groups of people, why is banning them from figure skating the solution? They could switch to being a gymnastics coach or school teacher and commit the same offense. By this logic we need a Safe patroller for every single profession, activity in society... oh right, it's called law enforcement. Why does a private organization have so much authority in conducting definitive investigations on individuals in the first place?

I agree. Sexual abuse is a crime and should be handled through the courts. If the coach is in jail they can't hurt anyone. When/if they get out they will be on the sex offender registry. Surely that would be enough to keep them from coaching? Why is this separate thing needed?

We need to remember that "sexual misconduct" is a broad term that encompasses a wide range of behaviors. Although we often use it to cover both crimes (rape, sexual assault or abuse, sexual harassment that meets the legal definition of that term) and other offenses, in most policy documents it refers to actions that don't meet the legal standard of those felonies but are still deeply troubling, undesirable, and potentially traumatic or life-changing, especially in a professional or educational setting.

Relationships between teachers and students or doctors and patients are not necessarily inherently illegal, for example. but most institutions feel--rightly in my opinion--that the power imbalances in such situations make true consent extremely difficult if not impossible and create too much potential for abuse, manipulation, or coercion. So employers and professional bodies ban such relationships and back those bans up with serious and clearly-communicated professional consequences for violating them.

Similarly, the legal definition of sexual harassment is actually quite limited. Making horrible comments of a sexual nature or about a person's body to or about another person, touching another person inappropriately, performatively ogling someone, making unwelcome advances toward someone, pressuring someone to consent to sexual acts: these are not necessarily felonies in and of themselves. Additional legal tests have to be met before a pattern of conduct or its consequences meets the threshold for prosecuting sexual harassment. There are a lot of situations in which, if someone went to the police, they would sympathize but not be able to do anything, because the behavior fell short of the level of criminality that the police exist to investigate and the law to punish. But there are also a lot of situations in which not only are such behaviors unwelcome, but hierarchies or power imbalances make it so hard for the recipients to resist fully and freely that there need to be policies prohibiting such behavior and, again, serious and clearly-communicated professional consequences for violating them.

The same is true of many forms of bullying, emotional abuse, or hazing. They aren't crimes that the police can investigate and a court of law judge and sentence. But they are horrible and need to be prevented, and people who commit them need to be stopped from continuing to do so. When putting the perpetrator in jail isn't an option, there need to be other mechanisms to remove him or her from the victim's environment and prevent access to future victims. That means professional consequences (losing a job or the membership of an organization, losing the credentials or certification needed to hold that type of job) and, often, being placed on a register available to the public or to appropriate parties (e.g. employers) to alert prospective employers of the perpetrator's demonstrated record of misconduct.

Unless we want there to be no consequences for any behavior that falls short of the legal definitions of felony rape or sexual assault/ abuse/harassment, etc., or to have those behaviors dealt with solely through word of mouth, institutions (employers or professional bodies) need to set up their own investigative and disciplinary processes. Hence SafeSport. It may very well be the first port of call for survivors of crimes whose cases need to be passed on to the police. But it can also deal with problems that the police can't, through processes that are intended to create due process (as opposed to mob justice) and protect all participants: survivors from continued abuse, potential victims from victimization, the innocent from rumors and false allegations.

I have no knowledge of how SafeSport actually operates, and I'm not claiming that it's perfect. But something of its kind is a necessity for any profession, especially one that involves intensive interaction between adults and minors, in one-on-one situations, with little oversight from other adults.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
From the private organizations I know and from what little I know of criminal law, there would be no action after the death of the subject of a complaint/criminal defendant.

The purpose of the private organization is to 1. Remove anyone who has violated the organization’s norms and 2. Prevent that person from being in a position to re-offend.

The purpose of criminal law is 1. punish someone who has broken the law and 2. remove that person as a risk to the society where they have broken the law.

So there is no reason for an investigation to continue after the death of its subject.

Of course, what a private organization does or does not do would be up to the organization.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
I have a family member in law enforcement, but he wasn't much help. He said something like that is decided by people in a higher position than him. He did say that he believes it may vary from state to state, and he has heard of cases where suspects have been named in crimes after they've died.

I would hope that this case is continued to be investigated. The truth needs to be made public, the accusers need to have closure and justice.

I think that at the very least the USFSA needs to revisit its own policies here. Regardless of ISU rules I do wonder if there needs to be certain local rules put in place regarding minors and adults as partners and if it is potentially creating USFSA sanctioned unsafe environments for minors. Plus I think our rules should reflect our laws which limit with good reason interactions between minors and adults. 20 and 16 seems like a reasonable limit with exceptions made only via parental waivers and a peer review of some sort.

Even if the details of the investigation are left out of the public record I pray the ISU and USFSA are given the information for its rules and safety committees to address and hopefully utilize to create a Safer Sport.
 

bobbob

Medalist
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
One of the main principles of the American justice system is innocent until proven guilty. The fact of the matter is, you are not guilty of a crime simply by committing the crime; no, you are only guilty if it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt you have committed it. Why is that? It boils down to the very American idea of due process. Everyone, including suspected criminals, have equal rights.

If the goal of this philosophy is to keep the greater population safe from criminals, at all costs, it could be improved. Many private organizations, companies, and the media, do not abide by this principle. But the goal is to achieve a balance while preventing against falsely convicting people. It is the compromise our founding fathers came up with.
 

rachno2

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 6, 2018
One of the main principles of the American justice system is innocent until proven guilty. The fact of the matter is, you are not guilty of a crime simply by committing the crime; no, you are only guilty if it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt you have committed it. Why is that? It boils down to the very American idea of due process. Everyone, including suspected criminals, have equal rights.

If the goal of this philosophy is to keep the greater population safe from criminals, it could be improved. But the goal is to achieve a balance while preventing against falsely convicting people. It is the compromise our founding fathers came up with. Is it a good one? That is up for debate.

Nobody convicted him. Nobody even charged him.

Please look up the definition of due process. It means you have the constitutional right to a fair trial in a court of law before you are legally punished. It does not mean a non-legal entity, such as SafeSport and USFS, cannot investigate or suspend you. It does not mean media outlets cannot report on developments which are public knowledge. It does not mean random commentators on the internet cannot speculate.
 

Tavi...

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
That is disgusting if true. You accuse someone and after they take their own life due to your allegations you stop the investigation with no closure? Is there any group that does not want the investigation to finish so we can find out what the truth actually is? Do the cops stop investigating a murder when the suspect takes their own life? Never. So unprofessional.

I really hate the idea of SafeSport. Sexual misconduct is not a figure skating thing, or sport thing. If someone is a sex offender and unfit to interact with certain groups of people, why is banning them from figure skating the solution? They could switch to being a gymnastics coach or school teacher and commit the same offense. By this logic we need a Safe patroller for every single profession, activity in society... oh right, it's called law enforcement. Why does a private organization have so much authority in conducting definitive investigations on individuals in the first place?

In the first place, you’re conflating several things and making some unwarranted assumptions. The “you” who lodges a complaint is not the “you” who investigates or stops investigating the complaint. And forgive me, but how do you know why, exactly, he took his life?

In the second place, many organizations have an internal process for reporting allegations of abuse, harassment, sexual misconduct, discrimination, etc. All government agencies do, for example. That doesn’t mean the complainant can’t also file a criminal complaint with the police. In some circumstances, the person reporting to SafeSport may be required to also report to law enforcement. I assume, but don’t know for sure, that SafeSport could also refer the matter to law enforcement.

The advantage for a complainant in going to SafeSport is that (1) behavior investigated by SafeSport may be broader than the behavior covered by a criminal statute, and (2) many states have statutes of limitations, meaning that a charge that’s too old cannot be brought; there is no statute of limitations for SafeSport. That was true, for example, of the charges brought by Craig Mauritzi against Richard Callaghan.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
In the second place, many organizations have an internal process for reporting allegations of abuse, harassment, sexual misconduct, discrimination, etc. All government agencies do, for example. That doesn’t mean the complainant can’t also file a criminal complaint with the police. In some circumstances, the person reporting to SafeSport may be required to also report to law enforcement. I assume, but don’t know for sure, that SafeSport could also refer the matter to law enforcement.

From an unrelated article last year on the Callaghan case:
A spokesperson for the U.S. Center for SafeSport said the organization does not comment on active matters, but said in cases involving abuse of minors, the organization always reports the matter to law enforcement.

Link to story : HERE
 

bobbob

Medalist
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Nobody convicted him. Nobody even charged him.

Please look up the definition of due process. It means you have the constitutional right to a fair trial in a court of law before you are legally punished. It does not mean a non-legal entity, such as SafeSport and USFS, cannot investigate or suspend you. It does not mean media outlets cannot report on developments which are public knowledge. It does not mean random commentators on the internet cannot speculate.

This is not in response to John Coughlin. I did not mention him at all; I agree, due process did not come into play in regards to John Coughlin. Many posters have said law enforcement is ineffective when dealing with crimes such as these. I am trying to explain why law enforcement works the way it does. In many cases, the purpose of law enforcement is to protect the victim but also the suspect as well. You have to realize they have two sides to juggle at once, and this is the way it was written in the Constitution. In that sense, they are working effectively.

Clearly SafeSport does not work the same way.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I think that at the very least the USFSA needs to revisit its own policies here.

The policies have been evolving over the years -- in the general public, in sports in general, and in USFS specifically. How such issues are handled now is very different from 10 years ago, let alone 20, and undoubtedly policies and the general cultural climate will be very different (hopefully better!) in another 10 years than what it is now.

Regardless of ISU rules I do wonder if there needs to be certain local rules put in place regarding minors and adults as partners and if it is potentially creating unsafe environments for minors.

As of last year, USFS now requires partners who are over 18 and working with a partner who is under 18 to be "greenlighted" through a background check in the same way that coaches are.

This includes teams who might have been skating together since they were young children and one partner turned 18 before the other one.

There are a number of different safety issues related to who's partnered with whom, including not only off-ice relationships and the potential for sexual, physical, or emotional abuse from one partner to another, but also the physical safety of executing risky moves especially moving into higher level pair skating.

Not to mention other considerations in forming pairs (or dance teams) unrelated to safety.

Even if the details of the investigation are left out of the public record I pray the ISU and USFSA are given the information for its rules and safety committees to address and hopefully utilize to create a Safer Sport.

I'm not sure how ISU rules would come into play.

USFS has increasingly been introducing new policies and restrictions related to skater safety:
https://www.usfigureskating.org/clubs?id=84197
 

rachno2

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 6, 2018
This is not in response to John Coughlin. I did not mention him at all; I agree, due process did not come into play in regards to John Coughlin. Many posters have said law enforcement is ineffective when dealing with crimes such as these. I am trying to explain why law enforcement works the way it does. In many cases, the purpose of law enforcement is to protect the victim but also the suspect as well. You have to realize they have two sides to juggle at once, and this is the way it was written in the Constitution. In that sense, they are working effectively.

Clearly SafeSport does not work the same way.

People have taken hours out of their day to explain to you how law enforcement has not protected them, no matter what its purpose is. There are facts and figures which back up their experiences. The reality is that in sexual misconduct cases in particular, which are so subjective and often lack evidence, law enforcement is inadequate to provide immediate protection to the accuser. It doesn't matter how pure its intentions are. SafeSport provided immediate protection by suspending a man they were investigating and removing him from contact with possible survivors. Law enforcement does not have the power to do that.
 

bobbob

Medalist
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
People have taken hours out of their day to explain to you how law enforcement has not worked effectively for them, no matter what its purpose is. The fact of the matter is that in sexual misconduct cases in particular, which are so subjective and often lack evidence, law enforcement is inadequate to provide immediate protection to the accuser. It doesn't matter how pure its intentions are. SafeSport provided immediate protection by suspending a man they were investigating and removing him from contact with possible survivors.

I would say that is a different philosophy about law enforcement. Law enforcement is not supposed to be work for one particular person. It is for overall justice and equality, in my opinion.

SafeSport, as a private agency, has no right to ban anyone from contacting anyone else. It can ban someone from US Figure Skating private events, that is all the authority it has. It would not be illegal for Coughlin to be in contact with his accusers.
 

rachno2

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 6, 2018
SafeSport, as a private agency, has no right to ban anyone from contacting anyone else. It can ban someone from US Figure Skating private events, that is all the authority it has. It would not be illegal for Coughlin to be in contact with his accusers.

Yes. But it was an important symbolic action, to assure the accusers that their allegations were being taken seriously and that it has a zero tolerance policy with regard to sexual misconduct. Do you think he should have been allowed to continue to participate in events?

Anyway, this is going nowhere. All I will say is, if you honestly believe law enforcement effectively and equally protects the accuser and the accused, then you are naive. Especially when we get into gray areas about misconduct, harassment and inappropriate relationships, which law enforcement is often not able to handle. SafeSport isn't perfect, but it is necessary to have non-legal organizations like that in place.
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
I would say that is a different philosophy about law enforcement. Law enforcement is not supposed to be work for one particular person. It is for overall justice and equality, in my opinion.

SafeSport, as a private agency, has no right to ban anyone from contacting anyone else. It can ban someone from US Figure Skating private events, that is all the authority it has. It would not be illegal for Coughlin to be in contact with his accusers.

It could ban him, and then if he violated that ban, enact further punishment via whatever their policies are, such as a permanent ban on all USFS/ISU committees, events, etc. (I am just making this up.)

I’m not sure if it’s deliberate or not, but you have a dramatic misunderstanding of the difference between constitutional rights and private privileges. Being a skating coach or on a USFS committee or having any sort of authority over minors is not a right. It is a privilege. And that privilege can be stripped from anyone at any time for any reason by the institutions in charge. They did that in Coughlin’s case. Nobody took away any of his rights or his legal presumption of innocence. That literally never happened.

Protecting people is more important than letting someone keep a position of power.
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Not to mention the types of abuse that can occur that are legal. If a student, even if they are a legal adult, is coerced into having a sexual relationship with a coach, teacher, or anyone with a position of power over them, that should not be tolerated by any private institution, even if it’s legal.
 

bobbob

Medalist
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Yes. But it was an important symbolic action, to assure the accusers that their allegations were being taken seriously and that it has a zero tolerance policy with regard to sexual misconduct. Do you think he should have been allowed to continue to participate in events?

Anyway, this is going nowhere. All I will say is, if you honestly believe law enforcement effectively and equally protects the accuser and the accused, then you are naive. Especially when we get into gray areas about misconduct, harassment and inappropriate relationships, which law enforcement is often not able to handle. SafeSport isn't perfect, but it is necessary to have non-legal organizations like that in place.

No, I agree that Coughlin should not have been allowed. I believe the manner in which he was banned, with escalating suspensions from SafeSport will no explanation, causing a media ruckus, was not appropriate. I think USFS should be the one conducting investigations, along with law enforcement. It would not have been difficult to temporarily have him take a break from coaching without rumors online.

Regardless, I will stop, I agree this is getting nowhere. I hope the investigation continues by an impartial organization. I think everyone involved would like to see that happen. Rest in peace, John Coughlin.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
Required listening.
https://youtu.be/jCHOVoH8wgQ

The identity of the complainant is known within the skating community and people are furious. Which is just wonderful.

Is the nature of the complaint disclosed? That seems Like something of actual importance for me at least. I for one have little interest in knowing the identity.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
Required listening.
https://youtu.be/jCHOVoH8wgQ

The identity of the complainant is known within the skating community and people are furious. Which is just wonderful.

I clicked and then I saw it was Dave Lease and Christine Brennan on TSL. (Just in case anyone else would like to know),

I don’t think that particular talk is something I will need to listen to.
 

caseyy

Spectator
Joined
Nov 4, 2018
I think the TSL Christine Brennan interview is important in clarifying the situation and putting it into context. I can give a summary of the main points for those who don't wish to listen. The most concerning takeaway for me is this:

Even though the people who reported are anonymous, the identity of the one who filed the initial report is well known in Detroit and the skating community. Dave talked to a former judge and there are judges who are very angry at that person. Dave questioned if that person will ever be able to compete again and that there is fear about coming forward now.
 
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