US Coaches restricted by SafeSport

caseyy said:

Even though the people who reported are anonymous, the identity of the one who filed the initial report is well known in Detroit and the skating community. Dave talked to a former judge and there are judges who are very angry at that person. Dave questioned if that person will ever be able to compete again and that there is fear about coming forward now.

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Welcome to Golden Skate Thanks for the summary!

This is based on hear say from Dave then that the identity is known or is this a documented fact? I honestly have to wonder how people found out that information and why anyone would even seek it out in the first place. And while it is true that it would be extremely concerning to learn that the judges are conspiring to get revenge for John let’s not overlook that this really is gossip at this point. I mean even if those on the inside who know are saying there is concern of revenge that is still different than saying someone has or is planning on taking revenge.

Are there any credible sources other than Dave on these claims and what was Christine’s take on this plot to take revenge on the accuser.

I dislike TSL, but this disgusting revelation, even if it turns out to be a rumour, doesn't surprise me in the slightest. And well, I doubt it's a rumour. Lease has been quite respectful in dealing with this, plus this "sport"'s personalities trying to use muscle power and human dunghill level politics to silence its athletes and continue being utter garbage is merely expected.

What a horrifying ordeal.

el henry said:

I clicked and then I saw it was Dave Lease and Christine Brennan on TSL. (Just in case anyone else would like to know),

I don’t think that particular talk is something I will need to listen to.

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Don't listen to them if you don't like them, I despise them too. But the talk itself reveals something several likely already knew about the skating community, and is important.

^ Direct link to PSA statement on Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bs4adRzn_uz/?utm_source=ig_twitter_share&igshid=19bvcw92b36qh

Mathman said:

^ Direct link to PSA statement on Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bs4adRzn_uz/?utm_source=ig_twitter_share&igshid=19bvcw92b36qh

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Their statement makes me sick...

Not related to that tweet/insta, but I'm really uncomfortable with the amount of Nancy Drewing I'm seeing right now on social media. I pray the people involved are protected and their identities and circumstances are as well. If I were one of them, I'd be freaked out right now. Maybe it's because I'm a very private person, but if I would want people to know the details I would like it to be on my terms or not at all.

And to be perfectly honest, I also don't trust TSL being part of the reporting of this. I don't like him poking around the skating club, regardless of how respectful he is being. His status as a Perez Hilton-type makes me very nervous and I would think after he put up and yanked that SafeSport interview he would have slowed his roll a little.

Mathman said:

^ Direct link to PSA statement on Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bs4adRzn_uz/?utm_source=ig_twitter_share&igshid=19bvcw92b36qh

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It is an understandable statement. Why? Because it is probable that Coughlin was not heard by SafeSport before the suspension. It seems that he was completely surprised by the suspension.

gravy said:

This is how accusations should work. I agree with @hanyuufan5 that parents shouldn't have to wait for an abuser to be convicted before being removed from working with children. In most cases where adults work with children (teachers, coaches in sports with good anti-abuse rules, etc.), an accused person is put on leave for the duration of the investigation. If someone was truly innocent, a false accusation (which are incredibly rare) I don't think would have much bearing on their career.

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Against my better judgment about wading into this situation, I would disagree with that false accusations are incredibly rare or that it wouldn't have much bearing on the accused's career. I know of multiple situations (not just one or two) where people made false accusations to "get rid" of someone else. In one case, a coach had multiple grievances filed against him by another coach's parents (i.e. different parents, so that it wouldn't just be "one person"), with each costing several thousands of dollars in lawyer fees to clear, until he quit that rink because they took up so much time (and money). No grievances were successful. (I know it from that coach's standpoint, so take it what you will.) That was before SafeSport, so today, it would likely have resulted in a SafeSport suspension if they were SafeSport-related.

You have to keep in mind that skating is a small but highly competitive world. Coaching can be a very lucrative job if you can attract enough students or have the reputation of being a good coach. Some parents are also going to be very competitive about their kids and want everyone to see their kids be seen as "the best" within a rink or whatever. Because it's a very expensive sport, very involved parents also want to see a good return on their money, so to speak (in terms of their kid's prestige). We'd like to pretend that everyone is going to "fight fair" but the reality is that's not going to be the case. Some will take the attitude of "whatever means necessary". And the more tools available to them, i.e. grievances, SafeSport, etc., the better.

Being suspended can also be a big impact to your career, even if it's only temporary, say 3 months, and then you're cleared. You're not allowed to coach, take students to competitions, etc. Your students are not just going to sit around and wait. They'll likely go to someone else. You still have to pay your bills. Because the accused is announced while the accuser(s) aren't, your own life is disrupted but everyone else's can continue on. Your life gets thrown into turmoil as you deal with the allegations, and they become a huge distraction preventing you from focusing on your students. Not just money and time but your mental focus. If it's competition season, you better find a good proxy coach for your students in the interim. In fact in the same way that U.S. presidential elections have "October surprises", a smart but unscrupulous coach or parents would throw in some SafeSport allegations around August or September or so just to throw their competitors off-kilter right before competitions start in October (i.e. Regionals). Even if you're cleared, rival coaches can still whisper around that you were investigated but perhaps cleared only because of insufficient evidence (wink, wink), or he-said she-said, etc., "are you sure you want your kid around that coach", etc. And parents will know anyway when the suspension is announced. Even if you're cleared, there will still be the stigma. You have to take time to build up a customer base again, etc. It's not a trivial matter.

I'm not saying that people will flippantly throw out false accusations, but that we have to keep in mind that the skating world has a lot of powerful personalities, among coaches, among parents, among rink administrators, etc., and unfortunately some will see things like SafeSport not as a way to protect kids but as just another tool in their toolbox to execute "power plays" against others. Hence, false accusations should always be considered a possibility.

One thing that comes to mind, and I genuinely don't know the answer, mostly because I don't really know how to search for it: Are there any USFSA/SafeSport suspensions/bans for someone making a false accusation against someone else? Because there are obviously suspensions/bans for SafeSport etc. stuff, so we know that the system "works", i.e. the system does (eventually) ban people for SafeSport stuff, even if it takes a long time and/or only a not-big-enough percentage of perpetrators are punished. But if no one has ever been kicked out for making a false accusation against someone else, then you're left with either 1) false accusations never happen, or 2) false accusations happen but the chance of getting caught and punished for it is currently exactly zero. And I can state with certainty that they do happen, when I'm aware of multiple instances in just my own limited knowledge of the skating world, being a relative newcomer and not really keeping up to date on what's going on in this world, so I highly doubt that it doesn't happen in the vastly wider part of the skating world that I don't know about.

Having said that, SafeSport is in many ways put in a very difficult situation. On one hand, you want to protect athletes. On the other hand, you want to make sure that the tools used to protect athletes do not get abused or misused. But an investigation by definition is conducted under incomplete information -- you don't know what the result will be ahead of time. If they set the bar for suspension so high that a person isn't suspended until they're formally convicted, then that person can continue to prey on athletes during the investigation. But if the bar for suspension is so low that you suspend people at or near the beginning of an investigation, then it's more likely that it becomes a tool to disrupt other coaches etc.

And the worst case of all is when the result is that it's indeterminate. You can't really conclusively say that the person was guilty, nor that the person was innocent. Such as he-said she-said situations. Of course in a court of law, a person is considered innocent "until proven guilty" so there is no such gray area. A court of law however has the ability to subpoena phone records, have people testify under oath, etc., i.e. has much more power to get to the bottom of the matter. As far as I know, SafeSport has no such authority. As such, there will be cases in that gray area. In which case no matter how it rules, it's basically screwed either way. I certainly don't envy them.

And that's something to realize. SafeSport is imperfect. The criminal justice system is imperfect. SafeSport will never be 100%; there will always be mistakes, either in one direction or another. It doesn't mean that we don't try, but it does mean that it will fall down on the job from time to time. That's something that we have to accept and understand, unless and until someone comes up with a better system.

tsl is partially to blame for the entire mess in the first place. I guess they got what they wanted with all their recent media attention and all the follow up videos that they are creating

bobbob said:

tsl is partially to blame for the entire mess in the first place. I guess they got what they wanted with all their recent media attention and all the follow up videos that they are creating

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Erm, what mess did TSL create? They're reporting on this matter of abuse.

Mervin Tran made it clear on Twitter that he knows who at least one accuser is. It is not unreasonable to me that the identity may be known by many others in the skating world and that people might be upset with them.

chopinskate said:

Erm, what mess did TSL create? They're reporting on this matter of abuse.

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Well it was TSL which reported on the SafeSport's investigation/suspension/etc. and fueled media speculation and rumor, in part. Ideally, the same effective actions, an investigation and temporary suspension, could be done without all this media attention, which the general public does not need to speculate about or know about. Some sources have said it is this public rumor/speculation/accusations, that led to John's depression/unhappiness.

luckyguy said:

It is an understandable statement. ...

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It is indeed.

PSA said:

... We, as a skating and coaching community, need to come together with a clear and unified front that advocates for change and reform. PSA will do everything in its power to advocate and support our coaches in this effort.

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It would not have hurt the Professional Skater's Association to have included a line about "presenting a united front" and "advocating for and supporting" youthful skaters who are abused and then bullied and shamed by the skating establishment into keeping silent, if they know what's good for them.

By the way, the interim president of Michigan State University (former Michigan governor John Engler) was fired last week for giving a newspaper interview in which he claimed that victims of Larry Nassar were "enjoying the spotlight" that came from their abuse and its fallout.

bobbob said:

Well it was TSL which reported on the SafeSport's investigation/suspension/etc. and fueled media speculation and rumor, in part. Ideally, the same effective actions, an investigation and temporary suspension, could be done without all this media attention, which the general public does not need to speculate about or know about. Some sources have said it is this public rumor/speculation/accusations, that led to John's depression/unhappiness.

I would guess without TSL, even now there would be much less discussion or rumors floating around about this accuser(s) identity.

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Folks have had all kinds of grievances against TSL and this situation is being used as a soapbox moment by many. TSL did not make allegations appear or force SafeSport to take action.This scapegoating has nothing to do with tackling abuse in sports.

bobbob said:

Well it was TSL which reported on the SafeSport's investigation/suspension/etc. and fueled media speculation and rumor, in part. Ideally, the same effective actions, an investigation and temporary suspension, could be done without all this media attention, which the general public does not need to speculate about or know about. Some sources have said it is this public rumor/speculation/accusations, that led to John's depression/unhappiness.

I would guess without TSL, even now there would be much less discussion or rumors floating around about this accuser(s) identity.

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Um, no. It has been discussed in this thread, I'll repeat a last time: TSL and Brennan are not to be blamed for reporting on abuse and advocating for skaters. To accuse them of enjoying the spotlight because they did what they could is not conducive to spreading awareness about matters like these.

chopinskate said:

Um, no. It has been discussed in this thread, I'll repeat a last time: TSL and Brennan are not to be blamed for reporting on abuse and advocating for skaters. To accuse them of enjoying the spotlight because they did what they could is not conducive to spreading awareness about matters like these.

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TSL has been excessively gossipy, as usual. They were the first ones to say it was sexual whatever, they were the first ones to claim it is well known who the accusers are. This seems more like high school gossip girl than a serious matter with lives on the line. It just could be handled more professionally. It seems like most of what we know about the case is from TSL/related sources. Which you would think TSL is trying to help skaters, but I don't get that impression at all either.

Anyways the more we talk about them the more they are getting what they want, so we should stop.

bobbob said:

TSL has been excessively gossipy, as usual. They were the first ones to say it was sexual whatever, they were the first ones to claim it is well known who the accusers are. This seems more like high school gossip girl than a serious matter with lives on the line. It just could be handled more professionally. And I don't get the tone that TSL is trying to advocate for skaters at all.

Anyways the more we talk about them the more they are getting what they want, so we should stop.

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Still blaming TSL instead of focusing on real issues. Why do some of us insist on living in a world without context? The issues in gymnastics are fresh in our memory. TSL discussed them throughout. One of the lessons a lot of people took away from that is that cultures of silence are harmful to victims. Parents were clear in saying that they wanted warnings.

TSL shared the SafeSport allegations and now folks scapegoating them. These are difficult problems to deal with and blaming TSL does nothing to help. Suicide, abuse, etc. should not be trivialized like this.

GGFan said:

Still blaming TSL instead of focusing on real issues. Why do some of us insist on living in a world without context? The issues in gymnastics are fresh in our memory. TSL discussed them throughout. One of the lessons a lot of people took away from that is that cultures of silence are harmful to victims. Parents were clear in saying that they wanted warnings.

TSL shared the SafeSport allegations and now folks scapegoating them. These are difficult problems to deal with and blaming TSL does nothing to help. Suicide, abuse, etc. should not be trivialized like this.

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How does criticizing TSL trivialize suicide and abuse? My point is precisely that we should be more sensitive in discussing these matters, and I feel like TSL can be more respectful of all.

brightphoton said:

Breaking: Two-time U.S. pairs figure skating champion John Coughlin was facing three reports of sexual misconduct against him — two of them involving minors — when he took his own life.

https://twitter.com/cbrennansports/status/1087079741671247873

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Let's see

John Coughlin, the two-time U.S. pairs figure skating champion who took his life Friday, was facing three reports of sexual misconduct against him, two of them involving minors, according to a person with knowledge of the situation who was not authorized to talk publicly about the matter.

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So a person was not allowed to talk about the matter in public, but decides that it's ok to talk to journalist? Really? Are we still talking about moral and ethics?

bobbob said:

How does criticizing TSL trivialize suicide and abuse? My point is precisely that we should be more sensitive in discussing these matters, and I feel like TSL can be more respectful of all.

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Your making this issue about TSL misses the point completely. Having the SafeSport actions available to the public is the whole point. If they are meant to be private then that that's a decision that needs to be made by Congress/USOC, etc. TSL did not create the process.

There are definitely difficult issues here: 1) how to deal with allegations/investigations which take time, 2) how do we keep parents notified in the interim? 3) how do we allow the accused not to lose their livelihood? 4) how do we maintain safety of young athletes while preventing attack mobs? etc.

None of those difficult issues are the fault of TSL. Thus focusing on TSL is to trivialize the real issues.