Jumps, Spins, Ice Dance and Obeying Thy Coaches | Golden Skate

Jumps, Spins, Ice Dance and Obeying Thy Coaches

wobblepro

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
I have been skating almost 7 months now and am about halfway through Basic 6. I just joined a more advanced LTS group class and was introduced to jumps for the first time today (waltz and toe loop). And I ran into a bit of a problem.

I spin on my left foot and the coach today said that means that I need to land jumps on my right foot. But my right ankle, despite significant PT and the fact that I can dance on pointe just fine on it, is significantly weaker and less stable than the left and so I am not comfortable landing jumps on it. Coach said then I would need to relearn my spins so I do them on my right leg instead of my left. I currently am doing/learning single leg spins, scratch spins, backspins and inside twizzles. All are naturally way stronger on the left leg than the right. So I don't want to relearn them on the other leg.

Which I guess brings me to my first question - Do I truly need to either land jumps on my right foot or relearn all my spins on my right foot in order to land jumps on my left foot???

And a related question... I am considering going into solo ice dance instead of singles, in part to escape the jumps. But when I watch ice dancers skate, it seems like they do still do some small jumps, or at least hops. So I am curious. What jumps/hops do ice dancers have to learn?

And last question: How, erm, unusual is it for a student in an adult group LTS class to refuse to learn any jumps but the little ones used in ice dance? I want to cooperate with my coaches and keep learning and progressing, but I also want to avoid injury to this bad ankle and progress in the discipline I am considering choosing rather than in the default that seems to be the focus of the class.
 

tstop4me

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 2, 2015
Country
United-States
.... I spin on my left foot and the coach today said that means that I need to land jumps on my right foot. But my right ankle, despite significant PT and the fact that I can dance on pointe just fine on it, is significantly weaker and less stable than the left and so I am not comfortable landing jumps on it. Coach said then I would need to relearn my spins so I do them on my right leg instead of my left. I currently am doing/learning single leg spins, scratch spins, backspins and inside twizzles. All are naturally way stronger on the left leg than the right. So I don't want to relearn them on the other leg.

Which I guess brings me to my first question - Do I truly need to either land jumps on my right foot or relearn all my spins on my right foot in order to land jumps on my left foot??? .... And last question: How, erm, unusual is it for a student in an adult group LTS class to refuse to learn any jumps but the little ones used in ice dance? I want to cooperate with my coaches and keep learning and progressing, but I also want to avoid injury to this bad ankle and progress in the discipline I am considering choosing rather than in the default that seems to be the focus of the class.
(1) If you haven't already, you should consult with a medical professional to determine whether it's safe for you to be landing jumps on your right foot. That would help delimit your range of options.

(2) If the LTS program doesn't meet your needs, drop it and go with private lessons. Make sure the coach knows your limitations and your goals and is willing to custom tailor a training program that meets your needs.
 

jf12

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
You’re doing backspin and scratch spin on your left leg, so you’re already spinning both directions? That part is confusing. Most skaters spin on both legs equally but only one direction.

On the other hand ice dance uses both legs on the actual dances, it’ll be very difficult to favor one or the other on pattern dances etc, even with no jumping.
 

wobblepro

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
You’re doing backspin and scratch spin on your left leg, so you’re already spinning both directions? That part is confusing. Most skaters spin on both legs equally but only one direction.
Yes, that is correct. I can do backspins and inside twizzles on both feet, but they're way better on my left foot. One foot spins and scratch spins are both on my left foot only, but if forced to, I can mark them in a very sloppy way on my right foot. I could possibly get better if I actually practice on that side, but my private coach had said that I didn't need to after we established my preference for the left foot, so I didn't.

On the other hand ice dance uses both legs on the actual dances, it’ll be very difficult to favor one or the other on pattern dances etc, even with no jumping.
Sounds then like I might as well get to work improving spins on the right foot, and maybe sort out later whether to jump and what foot to use as I experiment with learning jumps. Hold off briefly on deciding whether to pursue ice dance or singles.
 

wobblepro

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
(1) If you haven't already, you should consult with a medical professional to determine whether it's safe for you to be landing jumps on your right foot. That would help delimit your range of options.
I consulted with a physical therapist several months ago when I was still rehabilitating a very old injury. She cleared me to jump on both feet (and return to pointe in ballet) but warned me that my weak right ankle puts me at an increased risk of injuries while jumping in skates, including knee injuries like ACL tears. She pointed out that anyone could twist an ankle and blow out their knee, even folks with strong ankles---that's just the nature of the sport---but I was at an increased risk on that side.

(2) If the LTS program doesn't meet your needs, drop it and go with private lessons. Make sure the coach knows your limitations and your goals and is willing to custom tailor a training program that meets your needs.
I'm in private lessons as well as group. I like the idea of doing both because there is more variety in what I get to try because one lesson is catered to me personally and the other is for an entire group of advanced students and me and so means that I get to try slightly harder things and challenge myself. Plus, it means free public skate, which is super important to my ability to practice regularly. I just wonder if either opting out of some things or asking the coach if some things can be modified for ice dance is acceptable.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I consulted with a physical therapist several months ago when I was still rehabilitating a very old injury. She cleared me to jump on both feet (and return to pointe in ballet) but warned me that my weak right ankle puts me at an increased risk of injuries while jumping in skates, including knee injuries like ACL tears. She pointed out that anyone could twist an ankle and blow out their knee, even folks with strong ankles---that's just the nature of the sport---but I was at an increased risk on that side.

All that is true. But if you have good support in your skates and are only doing single jumps at most, you'd probably be at much less risk of twisting an ankle in good skating boots than you would be by dancing en pointe or by doing jumps like tour jete or saut de basque in any kind of ballet shoe (or barefoot) -- except in that you already have better ballet skills and would first be learning the skating skills.

Is your physical therapist familiar with skating skills and skating equipment? If you're not feeling a physical problem with landing a waltz jump on your right foot but are just worried because what the physical therapist said, you might want to make sure you're getting an opinion from someone familiar with skating, and make sure you're using boots rated strong enough for single jumps.

I'm in private lessons as well as group. I like the idea of doing both because there is more variety in what I get to try because one lesson is catered to me personally and the other is for an entire group of advanced students and me and so means that I get to try slightly harder things and challenge myself. Plus, it means free public skate, which is super important to my ability to practice regularly. I just wonder if either opting out of some things or asking the coach if some things can be modified for ice dance is acceptable.

Talk to the group coach and let them know if there are certain skills you don't feel comfortable attempting for reasons of injury.

This might be an issue if you wanted official recognition that you had "passed" a group lesson level, especially if the rink/skating school requires passing one level to move on to taking the next class.

As you advance beyond the group lesson curriculum or decide to focus only on ice dance, you can focus more on the skills that meet your personal goals.

However, if those goals do include learning single jumps, especially the harder ones, you'll want to learn them in the direction that you feel most comfortable rotating, and you should concentrate on spinning the same direction (clockwise or counterclockwise) that you naturally want to rotate in your jumps. Especially in backspins because the backspin position is a building block for the air position in jumps from single loop and above.

If you are also able to do backspins in the opposite direction, that would be an extra skill that most skaters aren't capable of.

(Personally, I can do forward one-foot spins in my bad direction but it's much harder to the feel of the balance and rotation in a backspin the other way so I don't bother trying.)
 

MiraiFan

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 6, 2016
I would get fitted for a really good pair of boots with good support and spin and jump in the direction that's most comfortable/easy. I'm a clockwise skater--I jump and spin clockwise (backspin on left foot, clockwise); my understanding is that the direction you naturally turn in determines whether you are clockwise or counterclockwise. I rehabbed a very bad ankle injury to my landing foot and with good boots, singles like waltz and toe loop will be fine when you are ready. If you feel like laying off jumps for a while, I think that's a better option than spinning in different directions, especially if you want to test or compete at some point in the near future... I'd be way more worried about pointe, since you have zero support in ballet shoes...
 

wobblepro

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
All that is true. But if you have good support in your skates and are only doing single jumps at most, you'd probably be at much less risk of twisting an ankle in good skating boots than you would be by dancing en pointe or by doing jumps like tour jete or saut de basque in any kind of ballet shoe (or barefoot) -- except in that you already have better ballet skills and would first be learning the skating skills.
That is a really good point about the boots. I am in Riedell Diamonds. Was told they should be good for my first year or two of skating, but I don't know if that means that they have enough support for single jumps. I didn't expect to start jumping after 7 months or I might have bought something better right off the bat.

I hope these will be good enough for a few months. I'm reluctant to buy new skates now before I have decided on a discipline, because I've heard I might need different skates for ice dance than for singles.
 

jf12

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
That is a really good point about the boots. I am in Riedell Diamonds. Was told they should be good for my first year or two of skating, but I don't know if that means that they have enough support for single jumps. I didn't expect to start jumping after 7 months or I might have bought something better right off the bat.

I hope these will be good enough for a few months. I'm reluctant to buy new skates now before I have decided on a discipline, because I've heard I might need different skates for ice dance than for singles.

I would personally look at getting a more supportive pair of freestyle boots. Boots aren't designed to last forever, and I wouldn't expect those beginner boots to last more than a year in any case. For beginning and intermediate dance you don't need dance boots either. If you get your next pair of stiffer boots now that will last you say, a year and a half, you'll at that time be able to decide if you want dance boots, and if your injury is better, which will be more information for you to decide then.
 

MiraiFan

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 6, 2016
The diamonds are really a recreational boot, not designed for jumps and not enough of a rocker for spins... You need something rated for single jumps support wise even if you end up not jumping a lot.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
wobblepro, have you told your coaches about this injury? It's extremely important they know. I can't imagine a coach insisting on the jumps onto that foot if they knew you were carrying this. (I only just persuaded mine to let me jump again!)
 

RoaringMice

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 1, 2003
I hope these will be good enough for a few months. I'm reluctant to buy new skates now before I have decided on a discipline, because I've heard I might need different skates for ice dance than for singles.

You won't need different skates than those used for singles skating while you are learning and testing the beginning ice dances, and whether or not you get them when you reach the more advanced levels is up to you.

The Reidell Diamonds are borderline okay for the initial single jumps. Since you have special concerns with your ankles, I agree that it's time to step up to a better boot. Do you have a good skate pro where you are?
 

silver.blades

Medalist
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Country
Canada
To answer your final question, it is super common for adult skaters who are just starting out to not want to jump. From my experience, only about 30% of people who learn to skate as adults have any interest in jumping. The rest prefer to keep their feet on the ground and work on basic stroking and turns. So choosing not to jump at your age and level, especially given your existing injury is not unreasonable at all.

As to the jumping, if you're doing your backspin on your left foot, that means that you should be landing your jumps on your left foot. The backspin is your air position, just with your feet on the ice, so I'm not sure why your coach is telling you you need to land your jumps on the right. Out of curiosity, does your coach have any reverse (clockwise, landing on the left foot) jumpers? Some coaches only teach their skaters to jump in one direction regardless of their natural ability.

Regardless, if your coach is pressuring you to do something that you are not comfortable doing, especially with your injury history, it's time to look into a new coach.
 

wobblepro

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
Thanks for the advice on boots, ya'll. I don't know if I have a GOOD pro shop where I am, but I do have one and will ask my private coach if I should use them when I upgrade my boots. I will also talk with her again about my concerns and confusion about jumping and if we decide to proceed with trying it out, I will probably upgrade my boots. Heck, I might anyway, because ya'll make it sound like better boots may mean a better rocker and therefore better spins... and I do so like spins...

wobblepro, have you told your coaches about this injury? It's extremely important they know. I can't imagine a coach insisting on the jumps onto that foot if they knew you were carrying this. (I only just persuaded mine to let me jump again!)
I have. My private coach suggested we wait and see. She seems to share the perspective some of you offered that if I have enough stability for pointe work, I should be okay to land basic jumps, or to at least try. The substitute coach during the group lesson (who introduced me to jumps) responded to my concern about landing on the bad leg by suggesting that I relearn spins on my right so I can land jumps on my left. I feel like they all---private coach, 2 regular group coaches and substitute coach---want to see me attempt to jump before a decision is made one way or the other.

To answer your final question, it is super common for adult skaters who are just starting out to not want to jump. From my experience, only about 30% of people who learn to skate as adults have any interest in jumping. The rest prefer to keep their feet on the ground and work on basic stroking and turns. So choosing not to jump at your age and level, especially given your existing injury is not unreasonable at all.

As to the jumping, if you're doing your backspin on your left foot, that means that you should be landing your jumps on your left foot. The backspin is your air position, just with your feet on the ice, so I'm not sure why your coach is telling you you need to land your jumps on the right. Out of curiosity, does your coach have any reverse (clockwise, landing on the left foot) jumpers? Some coaches only teach their skaters to jump in one direction regardless of their natural ability.

Regardless, if your coach is pressuring you to do something that you are not comfortable doing, especially with your injury history, it's time to look into a new coach.
My private coach has clockwise jumpers and thinks that I might be one even though she hasn't seen me try to jump yet. She has seemed unconcerned that I like to do all my spins on my left leg, no matter the direction, and what that might mean for landing jumps on my left foot. It was just the substitute coach who said that I would have to relearn spins, and to be honest, I am pretty eager to hear what my private coach thinks about that.

In the meantime, I am---super carefully and awkwardly---landing waltz jumps on both feet. Really more gingerly hopping them, actually... and avoiding the toe loop like the plague... cuz you want me to do WHAT with my toe pick?!? (Actually, I can get up on it just fine, and stand there like a flamingo for a few seconds, but haven't the faintest clue what to do next.)
 

Nimyue

On the Ice
Joined
May 15, 2018
Thanks for the advice on boots, ya'll. I don't know if I have a GOOD pro shop where I am, but I do have one and will ask my private coach if I should use them when I upgrade my boots. I will also talk with her again about my concerns and confusion about jumping and if we decide to proceed with trying it out, I will probably upgrade my boots. Heck, I might anyway, because ya'll make it sound like better boots may mean a better rocker and therefore better spins... and I do so like spins...

I have. My private coach suggested we wait and see. She seems to share the perspective some of you offered that if I have enough stability for pointe work, I should be okay to land basic jumps, or to at least try. The substitute coach during the group lesson (who introduced me to jumps) responded to my concern about landing on the bad leg by suggesting that I relearn spins on my right so I can land jumps on my left. I feel like they all---private coach, 2 regular group coaches and substitute coach---want to see me attempt to jump before a decision is made one way or the other.

My private coach has clockwise jumpers and thinks that I might be one even though she hasn't seen me try to jump yet. She has seemed unconcerned that I like to do all my spins on my left leg, no matter the direction, and what that might mean for landing jumps on my left foot. It was just the substitute coach who said that I would have to relearn spins, and to be honest, I am pretty eager to hear what my private coach thinks about that.

In the meantime, I am---super carefully and awkwardly---landing waltz jumps on both feet. Really more gingerly hopping them, actually... and avoiding the toe loop like the plague... cuz you want me to do WHAT with my toe pick?!? (Actually, I can get up on it just fine, and stand there like a flamingo for a few seconds, but haven't the faintest clue what to do next.)

TBH you shouldn't have to relearn spins. But, you do need to work on Backspin on your landing leg as this is the foundation for your jump position. There are skaters who spin in a different direction than they jump, and there are skaters who can spin both directions etc. I would definitely lean more on what your primary coach thinks also!
 

wobblepro

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
TBH you shouldn't have to relearn spins. But, you do need to work on Backspin on your landing leg as this is the foundation for your jump position. There are skaters who spin in a different direction than they jump, and there are skaters who can spin both directions etc. I would definitely lean more on what your primary coach thinks also!
Had a lesson with my coach today. She was a little dismayed the group coach had taught me a backspin already and says that while I'm doing it more or less right, she'd like me to focus on my scratch spin for now. Said as it gets better it will help provide a "strong center" for many other spins later and that there is plenty of time to learn all kinds of things but that slowing down and focusing on just a few fundamentals will be good for me. As for the jumps, she said that she thinks I'm going to be jumping the other way and landing on the left. She sees no need for me to relearn spins on my other leg.
 
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