2018-19 U.S. Pairs' Figure Skating | Page 3 | Golden Skate

2018-19 U.S. Pairs' Figure Skating

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
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Felicia and Nate actually got the third highest PCS, and a distant third at that. They had a clean program but didn’t even beat D/C in the free skate. Had D/C turned even one of those single toe loops into a double they would have been second overall.

Also people really underestimate the skill it takes to project to the audience while trying to do athletic feats. It’s not as easy as people make it out to be.

Eek back to 2019 y’all. It should be a good battle!
 
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bobbob

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With Denney and Coughlin it wasn’t just a bad landings. They popped their SBS jumps in both the SP and FS. They got higher PCS than Felicia and Nate in both segments but pops just are so costly.

There was a body of work factor back there cause usfs did give D/C Worlds (they had to w/d and Felicia and Nate ended up going there). I wonder if this scenario played out in 2018 how the selection would have turned out.


Let's just say if there were international judges there, Denney / Coughlin would have outscored Zhang/Bartholomay considerably. Look at their head to head results internationally. A single pop in a program is easily mitigated by stronger skating and much better quality across the board. Zhang/Bartholomay were clean at Olys/Worlds, but look how they scored... Denney/Coughlin could have scored better with two or three falls. But at Nationals, a single pop and you lose to the cleaner team almost every time, regardless of how good your skating is.

I just hope Alexa and Chris get rewarded for their superior element quality versus all of the other pairs even if they are not clean.
 

Mrs. P

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I just can’t get outraged by that particular result, especially since I was there. Nationals is a strange, high-pressure cooker environment and Felicia and Nate thrived.

And doing a 2T and a 1A-1T-1T are not small mistakes. The judges still gave several points in PCS to Denney and Coughlin in both segments. I’ll grant you the gap was not as wide as the one they had internationally, but there was still a gap.

Also fwiw, Alexa and Chris did win nationals and get the sole Olympic spot with a so-so, not clean, FS. (The quad twist was super cool and helped)

I’m going to let this go, we’re going to have to disagree on this one ... so 2019 y’all?
 
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lurkz2

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Also fwiw, Alexa and Chris did win nationals and get the sole Olympic spot with a so-so, not clean, FS. (The quad twist was super cool and helped)

IIRC they were not penalized for Alexa's slightly 2 footed landing on the quad twist.
 

moonvine

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Should we do away with the judges, then, and let the audience decide who wins? And when did crowd response become part of the criteria for PCS?

YES, I can scream REALLY REALLY loud.:laugh2:
 

moonvine

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IIRC they were not penalized for Alexa's slightly 2 footed landing on the quad twist.

It's my understanding they aren't doing the quad twist this year, is this incorrect?
 

bobbob

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I’m going to let this go, we’re going to have to disagree on this one ... so 2019 y’all?

If all the teams are so-so, not clean (like last year), Alexa and Chris still have the edge, rightly so. But if another one of, say, 4 teams goes clean both programs, and Alexa and Chris don't, they are not going to Worlds.
 

skylark

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I totally agree with this. There have been too many instances where its almost seems as if the audience is the one judging the competition. Kayne/O'Shea in 2016 was one example, and even worse was Denney / Coughlin losing out on a much deserved Olympic berth despite a far superior (though less clean) skate than Zhang/Bartholomay in 2014.

It wasn't superior in the objective Executed Elements category. Zhang/Bartholomay's elements had a base value of 59.41. Denney/Coughlin's base value was 55.55.

Z/B earned 11.99 GOE points, for a total technical score of 71.40. D/C earned 13.52 GOE points, for a total technical score of 69.07.

Z/B component score was 63.82. D/C component score was 66.96.

So the judges did everything they could to help Denney and Coughlin get second place. But Zhang and Bartholomay out-skated them on the technical mark. Their GOE points lagged way behind D/C, but Z/B had all positive GOE, whereas D/C had a minus .51 for the single Axel/single toe/single toe.

These numbers show the true numerical effect of a clean skate over a skate with one costly error.

I would add that the audience got it right. But the audience didn't influence the judges. The judges did everything they could to favor D/C.

https://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2014/2014_us_fs_champs/CAT003SEG006.html

*** before I get scolded ... I think this is highly relevant to 2019. JMO. The judges may well do everything they can to help Alexa and Chris, but if another team out-skates them in Technical Elements, and skates cleaner, I think and hope that other team would win, and fairly.
 

bobbob

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It wasn't superior in the objective Executed Elements category. Zhang/Bartholomay's elements had a base value of 59.41. Denney/Coughlin's base value was 55.55.

Z/B earned 11.99 GOE points, for a total technical score of 71.40. D/C earned 13.52 GOE points, for a total technical score of 69.07.

Z/B component score was 63.82. D/C component score was 66.96.

So the judges did everything they could to help Denney and Coughlin get second place. But Zhang and Bartholomay out-skated them on the technical mark. Their GOE points lagged way behind D/C, but Z/B had all positive GOE, whereas D/C had a minus .51 for the single Axel/single toe/single toe.

These numbers show the true numerical effect of a clean skate over a skate with one costly error.

I would add that the audience got it right. But the audience didn't influence the judges. The judges did everything they could to favor D/C.

https://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2014/2014_us_fs_champs/CAT003SEG006.html

*** before I get scolded ... I think this is highly relevant to 2019. JMO. The judges may well do everything they can to help Alexa and Chris, but if another team out-skates them in Technical Elements, and skates cleaner, I think and hope that other team would win, and fairly.

Being clean/favorite also boosts your technical calls and GOEs. The technical score is not totally objective either.

Z/B were really struggling with levels, both before and after Nats. D/B really excelled in that aspect. Guess what happens at Nationals? For instance, Z/B got a level 1 on their twist at Skate America, D/B got level 3. They both got level 3 at Nats. (I did not think Z/B twist deserved a level 3, and that would have done it right there in terms of the result) Z/B got only one level 4 overall at Skate America. D/B got only one element that was NOT a level 4 at Skate America. At Nationals, both teams got the same levels, 2 non level 4 elements. Z/B were definitely propped up in that regard, they did not improve their levels that much in a couple months. (Of course, I am not suggesting levels don't change over time. But did Z/B really improve their levels that dramatically at Nats, before regressing again at Olys/Worlds?)

Despite that unfairness, it makes sense the team skating clean will have the highest BV. But GOEs on other elements and PCS is where the judges should reward quality on other elements and skating skills, and their judgement should not be punctuated by the emotional aspect/audience/etc. Again if you compare Z/B execution at Skate America versus their execution at Nats, and do the same for D/B, you will notice that Z/B got much more of a boost in GOEs (though D/B did get a very generous one too)

Again by audience favorite that means favorite on Golden Skate too LOL so I don't expect this to be a popular opinion. But fairness is fairness, some teams just have better skating qualities in my opinion.
 

skylark

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Being clean/favorite also boosts your technical calls and GOEs. The technical score is not totally objective either.
.

That's true. That's why I put the comparison of the GOE marks in my post. And I also agree with you that the technical score isn't totally objective either. That's why I think the farther the sport goes down the rabbit-hole of micro-managing technical marks, the worse the sport actually fares. ... and the more heated and unsolvable the arguments become ... and the more confused potential fans become.

Z/B were really struggling with levels, both before and after Nats. D/B really excelled in that aspect. Guess what happens at Nationals? For instance, Z/B got a level 1 on their twist at Skate America, D/B got level 3. They both got level 3 at Nats. (I did not think Z/B twist deserved a level 3, and that would have done it right there in terms of the result) Z/B got only one level 4 overall at Skate America. D/B got only one element that was NOT a level 4 at Skate America. At Nationals, both teams got the same levels, 2 non level 4 elements. Z/B were definitely propped up in that regard, they did not improve their levels that much in a couple months. (Of course, I am not suggesting levels don't change over time. But did Z/B really improve their levels that dramatically at Nats, before regressing again at Olys/Worlds?)

Despite that unfairness, it makes sense the team skating clean will have the highest BV. But GOEs on other elements and PCS is where the judges should reward quality on other elements and skating skills, and their judgement should not be punctuated by the emotional aspect/audience/etc.

Well, my point was that the judges tried their best to put Denney and Coughlin on top, by their GOE scores and component scores. I don't really think we can know, for sure, whether or not their judgment was punctuated by the emotional aspect/audience.

Still, we'll have to agree to disagree on that last bit, because I value the emotional and performance aspects of figure skating, and whereas the scoring system includes them in the criteria, they are never going to be able to be defined precisely and meet with everyone's agreement. That's what makes figure skating a unique sport, IMO. There's magic in it. :love::luv17::love: And you can't pin magic down.
 
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I have to confess that I, for one, have no problem with skaters getting a boost in PCS when they tear the roof off the place. The Program Components give the judges the chance to reward the performance taken as a whole, rather than so many points for a triple flip, so many points for a level 3 combination spin. (Or for that matter, so many points for "rhythmic knee action" in SS).

If the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, that is all to the good. Sport and Performance Art, in balance. :yes:

Plus, what's wrong with the paying audience leaving the arena buzzing, "Wow, did you see that?!"
 

skylark

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It's my understanding they aren't doing the quad twist this year, is this incorrect?

Well, they haven't done it so far but there may have been a hint or two they're training it? It's a good question, since the quad twist isn't worth as much this year. I also remember Alexa saying, the year they did it, that doing the quad made doing their triple twist a challenge. Which they still had to do because quad twist isn't allowed in the SP. So I imagine they're calculating and strategizing. Since their triple twist already gets sky-high GOEs, they might just work on getting it spectacular every time. And getting a level four on it every time. It's something for us to wonder about! :)

I have to confess that I, for one, have no problem with skaters getting a boost in PCS when they tear the roof off the place. The Program Components give the judges the chance to reward the performance taken as a whole, rather than so many points for a triple flip, so many points for a level 3 combination spin. (Or for that matter, so many points for "rhythmic knee action" in SS).

If the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, that is all to the good. Sport and Performance Art, in balance. :yes:

Plus, what's wrong with the paying audience leaving the arena buzzing, "Wow, did you see that?!"

:clap:
 

skylark

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Also people really underestimate the skill it takes to project to the audience while trying to do athletic feats. It’s not as easy as people make it out to be.

This is so true! It's deceiving, because part of being great at it is to make it look easy and natural. Who do we think, of US Pairs, is really good at this? There may be more than one answer, and more than one aspect of it to look at. What would the different aspects or skills be? Maybe one or two of the younger pairs who has potential in this area?
 

el henry

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All this has done is make me go back and watch Felicia and Nate's LP as US Nats.

What a wonderful skate and wonderful moment:yes: And why bother to have Nats if Worlds/Oly teams are judged only on what they "could" do or what they did on the GP? Too bad, so sad, they didn't do it at Nats.

I don't think I've ever waited for a comp where I like so many of the teams, but don't have a clear favorite. This could be interesting:)
 

Joubabe

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I have to confess that I, for one, have no problem with skaters getting a boost in PCS when they tear the roof off the place. The Program Components give the judges the chance to reward the performance taken as a whole, rather than so many points for a triple flip, so many points for a level 3 combination spin. (Or for that matter, so many points for "rhythmic knee action" in SS).

If the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, that is all to the good. Sport and Performance Art, in balance. :yes:

Plus, what's wrong with the paying audience leaving the arena buzzing, "Wow, did you see that?!"

You make some valid points. Judges are human so they are likely to be influenced by the crowd.

But I've been to Nationals and the crowd gets more and more worked up as the night goes on. If Z/B had skated that same performance in the second to last group, would they have gotten the same crowd response? I think it's unlikely.

I guess all we can hope for is that the judges be as fair and honest as possible.
 

skylark

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^^^ And I stayed up way too late watching Felicia and Nate's SP and FS, then re-watching the other videos, the ones I could find, of the top 6 pairs in that event.

Felicia and Nate were simply spectacular. I wish she hadn't retired at 20, but OTOH I guess she did everything she wanted to do, and that's a great way to retire.

Marissa and Simon came first because of a 7-point lead on the SP. And their FS was more exciting, and well done, than I had remembered, because of their great tricks and transitions, choreographed so beautifully by Julie Marcotte.

Segue to 2019 .... Who among the US Pairs is being choreographed by Julie Marcotte this year? And are there any other new (or old!) pair/choreographer match-ups that you especially like or think have promise?
 

Joubabe

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And why bother to have Nats if Worlds/Oly teams are judged only on what they "could" do or what they did on the GP? Too bad, so sad, they didn't do it at Nats.

Because Worlds and the Olympics are competitions? I, for one, want to send our strongest team just like the Russians and Japanese do!
 

moonvine

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Well, they haven't done it so far but there may have been a hint or two they're training it? It's a good question, since the quad twist isn't worth as much this year. I also remember Alexa saying, the year they did it, that doing the quad made doing their triple twist a challenge. Which they still had to do because quad twist isn't allowed in the SP. So I imagine they're calculating and strategizing. Since their triple twist already gets sky-high GOEs, they might just work on getting it spectacular every time. And getting a level four on it every time. It's something for us to wonder about! :)



:clap:

I know the quad twist is not allowed in the short. But I don't understand why. The men can do quads in the short, the ladies can do 3A, I don't understand why the pairs can't do quad twist if they want to.
 
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Because Worlds and the Olympics are competitions? I, for one, want to send our strongest team just like the Russians and Japanese do!

But that's kind of a trap, to me. The USFSA could still send the skaters that scored well on the Grand Prix or at last year's Worlds if they want to. They don't have to prop up their scores at U.S. Nationals if in fact the higher scores are not earned at the event that is being scored.

As for other countries, Japan did not push Rika Kihira ahead of Kaori Sakamoto at Japanese Nationals. Russia did not save Alina Zagitova with undeserved high scores at Russian Nationals.
 
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