2018-19 U.S. Pairs' Figure Skating

Hevari said:

Stereotypical thhought patterns are bad! Be open-minded.

Personally I like Asley & Tim very much and they totally deserved their national title! And Ashley's hight makes this pair more special, provides them stylish and unique look. I like how their elements look like because of Ashley bein tall girl with long limbs... For me they totally destroyed some kind of stereotype that the pair must have only one look - tiny girl and big tall guy and nothing another... So - well done Ashley and Tim! And hope that they will make a podium on 4CC and Top-10 at Worlds!

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I'm not taking anything away from Cain/LeDuc's win. They skated the best LP they ever have, and their main competitors struggled in the LP and had far more lift issues than C/L did. They have nice lines, particularly Ashley, and when they land and fully rotate their jumps, those are very nice as well.

It's not as much a stereotype as much as it's inherently more dangerous for them to skate pairs. And we shouldn't have to wait for something catastrophic to happen before acknowledging this. Perhaps it helps that Ashley learned pairs before she grew to her full height; it would probably be harder if she were just starting now. Basic physics says that it's easier and safer to throw/lift smaller and more compact things over one's head. Pick up a long tree branch and pick up a small twig and see which one you can throw farther.

I think they're managing better than any other pair of similar size would, but there are some negatives that come along with it. They're doing close to the bare minimum for lifts at this level, and they don't look effortless most of the time. Despite the very high GOE given out at US Nationals, their last two lifts kind of just looked like they were trying to survive through them. Their throws often look this way as well, with low chest landings or limited height, on the 3STh especially. Their twist has come a long way since they first started and could barely do one at all, but they do it practically vertically and the catch has often been iffy, whereas teams who are stronger on this element can get the girl's full body more lateral and higher above the guy's head. Their twists at Nationals were the two best they've ever done (the level 4 they got for it in the SP was inexplicable though). Again, I'm not taking anything away from their well-deserved win. They just aren't ideal sized for the current demands of pair skating.

If they skate well, they should have a good chance at top 10 at Worlds. It's hard to say for sure, because they only have one score this season in the 180s (181) and everything else has been below that, and I'm guessing it will take at least 180 for top 10. But China only has two entries, Canada really only has one relevant pair, same for Italy. And teams on the bubble like the Austrian pair are having some late season struggles. Aside from the top few names, it's an uncertain field this season. So the US will hopefully have two spots back for next year.

macy said:

can you fill me in on what happened with them? i was so baffled at their FS, i had no clue what was going on. i've never seen them skate like that before.

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Yeah Alexa & Chris's free skate was baffling and I wondered if they were hurt. I figured the SP might shake their confidence, but seeing them miss even one lift, never mind two, is unheard of. The final lift was barely even an attempt at a lift. It seemed like a total fluke. It was said afterward that he suffered a torn wrist ligament while they were training with Aljona and now he needs surgery. It makes me wonder what Aljona had them doing, because unless it was a freak accident, a pair skater who has no problem lifting really shouldn't be tearing his wrist. Maybe his injury also caused their twist in the SP to be so shockingly off. I would think a ligament problem would cause not just pain, but instability in the wrist, which would make any lifting an issue, but I'm not a wrist expert.

They haven't had an easy season with all their coaching/technical changes, but there were flashes of promise during the international season and they overall were still the best scoring US pair on the circuit. It's too bad they don't get a chance to at least compete at Four Continents, but if his wrist is that bad, maybe it's better to heal. This is the most unsure Alexa has ever looked jumping, which is puzzling because I usually consider her the rock of the team. The coaching change to Aljona had its benefits, but was also a risk, and the same could be said for making another coaching change mid-season. They need some time to get everything figured out. They didn't spend more than two months all year with the same coach, and it just seemed like too crazy of an arrangement. Maybe that had little to do with them skating so far below what they're capable of at this Nationals, but it couldn't have been easy.

I sooooo love Ashley and Tim’s style and what they do.:luv17:

A tall man throwing a tiny woman around (and I am NOT talking about any one particular team) ain’t pair skating to me. Then again, I remember the Protopopovs, Tai and Randy: elegant lines, elements performed in perfect unison. I love Ashley & Tim for that. Lifts and twists are cool (I also loooooved Alexa and Chris 4Tw. But Alexa and Chris aren’t doing it, obviously can’t do it at this point, and woulda coulda shoulda with what they used to do is unfortunately not relevant now) but Ashley and Tim’s lines....aaaaahh:luv17:

I do hope that the international judges reward what Ashley and Tim bring to the ice, and the two spots come back. But if they don’t, I’ll still be very glad they are there representing the US

And please do that SP perfectly. It is my everything

Their short program makes me want to poke my own eyes out. it's the most awful music and choreography. They lack the genuine connection that a pair should have. I hate every part of it. I was hoping that the gatsby would be the worst music choice for them, but it got worse. They always get called under rotated on the jumps internationally and even in the short at nationals. I would like them to get our spot back, but we shall see. Their free skate is less offensive, but only because the short is so bad.

happycamper2554 said:

Their short program makes me want to poke my own eyes out. it's the most awful music and choreography. They lack the genuine connection that a pair should have. I hate every part of it. I was hoping that the gatsby would be the worst music choice for them, but it got worse. They always get called under rotated on the jumps internationally and even in the short at nationals. I would like them to get our spot back, but we shall see. Their free skate is less offensive, but only because the short is so bad.

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I agree with you on the short, it’s a very Juniorish type program you would see when it comes to the music and Chereography. They don’t have the explosive pair elements and Ashley has received under rotations all season by the ISU judges so I too just hope they can get in top 10.

skylark said:

Back to Ashley and Tim ... in the Press Conferences, they mentioned that for the first two weeks after her concussion, the only thing Ashley was allowed to do was visualize the programs in every detail, exactly how they wanted to skate their Nationals programs. They both did the visualizations.

One reason this strikes me is that I believe it. When I haven't been able to play a challenging piece to my satisfaction in practice the day before performing, I take the music to bed with me, read through the music and visualize playing it perfectly on the piano. It works like a charm.:luv17: And if I were to really dedicate myself to such visualizations the way Ashley and Tim did ... well, it's something to consider. I hope they continue the practice!

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That's amazing. I wasn't a huge believer in visualizations, until I saw how effective this technique is for athletes, and also read research about how actually practicing piano vs. visualizing learning piano yielded very close results in beginners. The brain is easily deceived, because it can't distinguish between make-believe and reality.

I agree about K/K. They should not have competed FS when injured. It just made it worse. I'm routing for them, and I love their FS this season. I thought they improved dramatically after their brief stint with Alena, and could win it all - but treating those injuries should have come first!

2018-2019 U.S. Pairs

happycamper2554 said:

Their short program makes me want to poke my own eyes out. it's the most awful music and choreography. They lack the genuine connection that a pair should have. I hate every part of it. I was hoping that the gatsby would be the worst music choice for them, but it got worse. They always get called under rotated on the jumps internationally and even in the short at nationals. I would like them to get our spot back, but we shall see. Their free skate is less offensive, but only because the short is so bad.

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To each their own. If you hate it just don’t watch- there are certain programs that I view as time for a snack break. I love their short, it has a lot of personality. I also love the difference between their programs. And I find they have one of the best connections- it’s clear in their skating they actually care about each other. Excessive romance counting as a connection/ artistry has always bothered me- I feel the same way about ice dance. Most importantly, Earning 2 spots is doable which would be great for US pairs.

I love Ashley and Tim's short. It is so much fun and so high energy. I think it brings something different to the competition.

el henry said:

A tall man throwing a tiny woman around (and I am NOT talking about any one particular team) ain’t pair skating to me. Then again, I remember the Protopopovs, Tai and Randy: elegant lines, elements performed in perfect unison. I love Ashley & Tim for that. Lifts and twists are cool (I also loooooved Alexa and Chris 4Tw. But Alexa and Chris aren’t doing it, obviously can’t do it at this point, and woulda coulda shoulda with what they used to do is unfortunately not relevant now) but Ashley and Tim’s lines....aaaaahh:luv17:

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Throwing a tiny woman around and showcasing her is a huge part of pair skating though. Without that, it might as well just be ice dance. I like Tai & Randy, but I'm surprised how often people still bring them up. That was 40 years ago! The sport of pair skating has completely evolved and changed. Look at what is winning now- Aljona & Bruno doing huge, spectacular pair elements, while also showcasing nice lines (her more than him, but he's no slouch as a pair guy), choreography, unison, etc. Or the wonderful Chinese teams with explosive pair elements. Those are the teams I think about when I think about pair skating, not teams from the 1970's, but maybe it's somewhat of a generational thing. I wasn't born back then.

Seren said:

I also love the difference between their programs. And I find they have one of the best connections- it’s clear in their skating they actually care about each other. Excessive romance counting as a connection/ artistry has always bothered me- I feel the same way about ice dance.

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I do like the contrast between Cain & LeDuc's SP and FS. That's interesting that you see a deep connection between them because I don't see much of one at all. A connection doesn't have to be romantic, but especially in their FS, they spend the majority of their time between the elements skating on their own and focused on themselves. The pairs stuff almost feels secondary to the solo skating. The vibe is almost like a "siblings who don't really want to acknowledge the other person unless they have to" type. In the SP I at least see some playfulness between them, but in that FS I just see two individual people who come together at some points in the program to do pairs things when it really should be the opposite.

Casual said:

That's amazing. I wasn't a huge believer in visualizations, until I saw how effective this technique is for athletes, and also read research about how actually practicing piano vs. visualizing learning piano yielded very close results in beginners. The brain is easily deceived, because it can't distinguish between make-believe and reality.

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Yes the visualization thing is quite interesting. Sports are very mental.

gold12345 said:

Throwing a tiny woman around and showcasing her is a huge part of pair skating though. Without that, it might as well just be ice dance. I like Tai & Randy, but I'm surprised how often people still bring them up. That was 40 years ago! The sport of pair skating has completely evolved and changed. Look at what is winning now- Aljona & Bruno doing huge, spectacular pair elements, while also showcasing nice lines (her more than him, but he's no slouch as a pair guy), choreography, unison, etc. Or the wonderful Chinese teams with explosive pair elements. Those are the teams I think about when I think about pair skating, not teams from the 1970's, but maybe it's somewhat of a generational thing. I wasn't born back then.

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Hmm....how do you explain Sui/Han then? Doesn't exactly fit your narrative of the gorilla-with-flea pair body configuration.

skylark said:

Yes, I was baffled too. I think everyone was.

In an interview after the FS, it was revealed that Chris has been injured since (March? May? Maybe less. I'm not sure). He/they/the team didn't for whatever reason take the time for him to heal. Not sure if surgery was needed before, but it's needed now. I think someone said it's a torn ligament in his wrist. So it makes sense why they made mistakes on two lifts ... one incomplete and one aborted ... when lifts are usually their strongest element.

This is the way I remember reading it, but I may have gotten some details wrong. I can't remember what thread this information was in, but I think at least some of it was in moonvine's posts. Sorry, I don't have time to search for it now. Real life awaits.

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well that makes sense as to why they couldn't really do any lifts, but alexa also had jump issues. it was just so strange to watch.

it unfortunately sounds like it was a really poor choice to not let chris heal. i'm not sure why they felt like they couldn't make time, being its the year after an olympic season. maybe it had something to do with them not being able to train with aljona if they did? if the injury happened that long ago and they had let it heal, they might have at least been able to make it to nationals and beyond. now they ended up with poor performances and no trip to worlds. ugh, i hope he heals up quickly.

Nowadays, whenever I see a skater severely underperform, compared to what he/she/they are usually capable of (provided they always had very good technique, and didn't rely on preferential treatment from biased judges), I assume injury, or pain, or some other legit issue.

Those who are prone to undertraining (talented but not pushing hard enough), or to falls due to nerves (mental block), are another matter.

But if I've seen skaters perform spectacularly, and then falter on the same elements, I'm thinking "injury" or "something bad happened", when the body just doesn't oblige.

I think perhaps something happened not only to K/K, but to Kayne/O'Shea? She especially seemed so uncomfortable throughout the program.

Kayne and O'Shea are used to coming from behind. I think they felt the pressure of being expected to win and being in first. Even in 2016, no one expected them to win the title. She is always nervous, but I think he cracked a little bit. He is usually the grounded one, so I think that's what caused the melt down for them. Also I think they were both affected by the recent tragady with JC. I'm hoping they will make a good comeback at 4cc

Casual said:

That's amazing. I wasn't a huge believer in visualizations, until I saw how effective this technique is for athletes, and also read research about how actually practicing piano vs. visualizing learning piano yielded very close results in beginners. The brain is easily deceived, because it can't distinguish between make-believe and reality.

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You'd be amazed, really. I used to do karate and I would practice it "in my mind" as I called it. It doesn't take the place of actual physical practicing, but if you're stuck in the doctor's office or post office or one of many places you can't bust out with some karate moves - I do believe it helped me a lot.

Mathman said:

I think it is because the original idea of the short program was that everyone should do the same list of elements, and whoever did them best would be the winner of that segment. So if only a few teams could do a triple twist at all, that element could not be in the list of elements that everyone is required to do.

Same with a double Axel being required for ladies for a long time. Even though there were one or two ladies who could do a triple Axel, that was not an element that everyone can do in order to compare one skater against another in terms of quality.

Little by little, the ISU abandoned that notion of what the short program was intended to be. Now it is just a long program, only shorter.

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Yes, but they have updated all the other disciplines...men can do 4A in the short, women can do 3A (can they do 4A? I don't know). So it makes no sense to me pairs can't do quad twist.

Mrs. P said:

Also people really underestimate the skill it takes to project to the audience while trying to do athletic feats. It’s not as easy as people make it out to be.

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It isn't easy at ALL. I call it "skating up to the cheap seats" (where I am) and definitely not everyone can/does do it. Fewer can do it than can't.

skylark said:

Bringing moonvine's post from Pairs SP thread over to here:



Never say Never!

I believe that Ashley and Tim are our very best chance to bring in a Top Ten finish at Worlds. The last six weeks have refined them, by fire which no pairs skater would ever wish. But by diligence, passion, desire, ambition, and compassion for each other, they've raised themselves to a new level. They're skating like champions. No one can say for sure whether this shine will carry forward, but my money's on Ashley and Tim!

ETA: And they ^^ were on this road all season before the accident.

I think it would demoralize the whole competition, and the country, no matter who they were, if 7th-place Nationals finishers in any discipline were bumped up over six competitors to go to worlds. In this case, those six other teams skated brilliantly or very well in one or both programs. Ashley and Tim skated brilliantly in both.

I'm astonished that K/K competed in the FS. After that horrible mishap :eeking: in the SP, and knowing he was injured, I'd have thought the team would reconsider. It may be down to the fact that Jenni and Todd are new coaches to them, so all those wrinkles in communication, etc. haven't been ironed out yet. Someone in another thread said (sorry, I can't find it now), in an argument about K/K going to worlds, that Chris would never risk hurting Alexa. Well, sorry, but that's what he/they did. I'll be the first to say that he/they probably didn't realize what a grave risk they were taking (which their FS lift errors proved), but now they know.

Deanna brought up something. It's interesting to see how strategically she thinks! She said this is a good year for us to get 2 spots back, because there will only be two Chinese teams at Worlds. Conversely, because of Aljona/Bruno, there will be two teams there from Germany ... but not teams at A/B's level. So it's a great time. Honestly, I had the sense that all our pairs teams were/are striving together, as a group, and want the best for whoever gets sent. I also think that our top 5 or 6 teams raised their game because they knew how tough this competition would be. It worked!

Back to Ashley and Tim ... in the Press Conferences, they mentioned that for the first two weeks after her concussion, the only thing Ashley was allowed to do was visualize the programs in every detail, exactly how they wanted to skate their Nationals programs. They both did the visualizations.

One reason this strikes me is that I believe it. When I haven't been able to play a challenging piece to my satisfaction in practice the day before performing, I take the music to bed with me, read through the music and visualize playing it perfectly on the piano. It works like a charm.:luv17: And if I were to really dedicate myself to such visualizations the way Ashley and Tim did ... well, it's something to consider. I hope they continue the practice!

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OK, it definitely would not demoralize the country. I am willing to bet I could go out and interview 1,000 people and maybe 10,000 or 100,000 who have no idea who is on the US Figure Skating Worlds team in any discipline. If anything they might guess Alysa who of course is not on the team due to age.

As far as demoralizing US Skating, maybe. All I can say is USA gymnastics (not that I am holding them up as paragons of virtue, but the team picking process is difficult to argue with ) holds an Olympic trials (which skating doesn't even do) and at the end of 2 days of competition, the selection committee goes into a room and they take 30 minutes, or 45, or an hour, seems like forever as I've been to one). Then they announce the Olympic team, which may or may not have anything to do with how the competition itself went. And it's pretty hard to argue with results (again as far as the selection goes, I know USA Gymnastics has allowed a lot of athletes to be hurt and I HATE that). I remember when they first started doing this and left the 6th place lady off the team, and there was a big to-do, but people are used to it now. I don't think K/K should have been bumped up over 6 other pairs, especially since they are hurt, BUT if they had finished 2nd or 3rd I WOULD think they should be bumped up. And this is not just because they are my favorite pairs team, H/B are my favorite dance team and if we only had one dance spot I'd never have argued they should get it. It's because K/K have gotten the best results in International competitions for quite some time now. They almost won a medal at Skate America and they didn't even have a COACH.

And I will bet you a nickel we don't get 2 spots back in pairs I would be very happy to lose it!

gold12345 said:

I like Tai & Randy, but I'm surprised how often people still bring them up. That was 40 years ago! The sport of pair skating has completely evolved and changed. Look at what is winning now- Aljona & Bruno doing huge, spectacular pair elements, while also showcasing nice lines (her more than him, but he's no slouch as a pair guy), choreography, unison, etc. Or the wonderful Chinese teams with explosive pair elements. Those are the teams I think about when I think about pair skating, not teams from the 1970's, but maybe it's somewhat of a generational thing. I wasn't born back then.

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For me, who was alive back then and had a Tai & Randy poster from SI on her wall, not only were they our last Worlds Gold Medalists, but they were STUNNING skaters. I'd almost pay money just to see her stroke around the ice. They stayed together for something like 50 years, too (skating in ice shows.) They will always be my benchmark with which to compare other pairs, regardless of how the sport changes. Talk about a connection...

The field at skate america was so weak they should have won a medal coachless or not They haven't had good results at the worlds or the olympics. I don't think they deserve to be thought of so highly over the U.S. pairs

happycamper2554 said:

The field at skate america was so weak they should have won a medal coachless or not They haven't had good results at the worlds or the olympics. I don't think they deserve to be thought of so highly over the U.S. pairs

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They finished top 10 at 2017 Worlds, which is why we had 2 spots at 2018 Worlds. True they did not skate their best at 2018 worlds, but our other team did not even make the free.

2017 world was a while ago. Tarah and Danny got a silver on the grand prix and won last years four continents. Tim and Ashley won a bronze on the grand prix and finished 2nd at four continents. I think other teams have caught up to them. The SBS jumps also could be overlooked in the past but it's really become a hindrance to them. Plus I truly believe that if it had been tarah and danny had been at worlds instead of Nate and Deanna, things would have gone differently and we would have had two spots still.