2018-19 U.S. Pairs' Figure Skating | Page 2 | Golden Skate

2018-19 U.S. Pairs' Figure Skating

skylark

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I hope it's okay to contribute even though I'm not a US citizen and hail from The Netherlands. I don't know exactly why but Tarah and Dany's second GP skate just gripped me. I suppose it was because of their connection and seeing them so pleased with each other at what they achieved. I also like the Knierims a lot, while Ashley and Tim are great as well, also in the way they connect. I hope Ashley and Tim will be okay next week as their last outing was horrifying for both. It's a real shame there's only one placement at Worlds.

Absolutely! I think it's great to have a perspective from all fans who love some of the US pairs, or who are interested in their progress. I've been a Tarah and Danny fan since I saw them in person win 2016 nationals. Their dynamic has changed since then. I'm going to re-watch their second GP skate, on your recommendation, and try to see it with new eyes. One thing I think already shows is that in Colorado, Tarah has the support of physiotherapists and others who will tell her when it's best not to do this or that. I think she has a tendency to go out, be courageous, do it, regardless.

I have always wanted to see their connection deepen and be made more visible to all audiences, live and video. I take heart from your comment!


What are the chances the Worlds selection isn't announced until after 4 Continents? With no clear front runner (IMO) it would be good to see who can rise to the occasion.

In USFS world, chances are pretty much zero, IMHO.
 

gold12345

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The Knierims are the only US pair I have gravitated towards in many years and are the US's clear top pair, despite the issues they've faced. Their pair element ability is comparable to any international pair, which I've never said before about a US team. Alexa is one of the best female pair skaters in the world; her natural athleticism is off the charts and helps their twist & throws to be special. She just needs continued guidance and encouragement in the harsh world of US pair skating, where people expect pairs to get unrealistic/immediate results because of the US's rich history in the other disciplines. The Knierims have made great improvements this year in PCS, programs, packaging. They took risks and tried many new things (some worked, some didn't) in order to develop aspects of their skating that puts them in a better position against strong international competition, which I hope the US recognizes.

The Knierims remind me a bit of Tarasova/Morozov in terms of physical stature, long lines, athleticism. They're a potential top 5 at Worlds and would have the easiest time among US pairs at finishing top 10 this year. Given their recent scores, they could do it even without jumps assuming the rest of their big elements are fine. Despite changing coaches/countries at a strange time and looking a bit lost earlier in the season, they have the highest average US pairs score this year. I expect them to continue to get better now that they're settled into a comfortable training environment. They're our safest bet at Worlds, and our only chance at a great finish (assuming the event is a good one).

Kayne/O'Shea have a ceiling but are probably our #2 pair. Their programs are set up to do well more so domestically than internationally, and I'm concerned they will win Nationals. They have a well-choreographed LP to a warhorse that a casual US audience will fall for (I much prefer the Knierims' LP), but they're doing less technically and have quality issues. They don't do throw 3Lutz in either program anymore, and in the SP they're only doing a throw 3Sal, a small one at that. They could finish top 10 at Worlds--the field isn't as strong this year-- but they have equally as good of a chance of not getting top 10. Their scores are often in the 170s or 160s, which won't be enough. 3 of their 4 SP scores this season have been in the 50s (the other was 63 without a fall), which is an issue that has plagued them throughout their career and puts them at constant risk of finishing very low in the SP and far from the final groups. They have trouble with this year's required death spiral, and the quality of their twist and throws doesn't stack up against better competition. They had one solid total score which makes me rank them ahead of C/L, but their scores have been all over the place.

Cain/LeDuc talk very positively, but they haven't had an easy time scoring points. They sell their programs well, and they're probably at their best while doing choreography. While terrible lift falls won't happen often, they're at greater risk of a major mishap than other pairs because she's truthfully outgrown the discipline. They've had trouble on that lift before, as well as shaky moments on other lifts. They don't do a reverse lasso lift like all the other pairs (the big point getter), and they routinely miss levels. Their throws are always eked out and they've had jump under-rotations at every event. Their twist has gotten better, but it's erratic and I don't see them getting over a certain hump.

Denney/Frazier have strong lifts, but they've had a lot of trouble generating decent scores the past couple years. Their TES tends to be low, and they've withdrawn from events. I believe they could be stronger than Stellato/Bartholomay and maybe C/L and K/O, but they can't give away so many points or have URs every time. Stellato/Bartholomay got a big SP score at Nationals last season, but it wasn't the type of score they could get internationally. Some of her moves are lovely to watch but it's been hard for them to get past a certain point.

There have been so few US scores over 180 pts this season (the Knierims are the only team that has done it multiple times), and if you don't score in the 180s relatively easily, then a top 10 finish at this Worlds isn't a good bet, especially under the unique pressure of being the only US pair there. None of our pairs have been in a situation like this except the Knierims, who delivered in 2017. Their fluke death spiral fall wrecked their program in 2018, but I think Alexa would be in a better place mentally this year since they'd be going into Worlds knowing they're the only US pair instead of dealing with the negativity & panic that ensues when the second US pair doesn't qualify for the LP again. In most instances, the Knierims should win Nationals, but I'd feel more hopeful if it was scored like an international event. A concern is that some US pairs tend to have their best skates at Nationals and that the scoring gets a little haywire in part based on crowd response and standing ovations that would be absent at an international. I hope our pair with the strongest scoring potential on the world level is sent.
 

skylark

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Ashley and Tim were fine in terms of safety before her accident. No the lifts weren’t the highest in the world, but they weren’t unsafe either, and that fluke could have happened to anyone:scratch2:

I love that they see themselves as a partnership of equals. And words cannot express how much I adore that SP.

Adore adore adore:love:

But I actually adore almost all the US pairs, for varied and different reasons. I love that they bring something different to the table, stylistically and technically. Looking forward to Nats; a shame only one can go to Worlds.

I think that's what I love the most about US pairs, that I love them for such varied reasons. Which means that I'm getting different, varied experiences, emotional and otherwise, when I watch their skating.

It's so much more interesting than watching skaters who end up looking much alike in terms of style and technique and the bugbear of having to do the same variations on elements because they have to aim for the higher points values.

The fact that Ashley and Tim came out and stated they see themselves as a partnership of equals is enough to make me reflect on preconceived notions of pairs teams. I've read one interview when a pair (Tarasova/Morozov) were actually asked, "who is the leader?" And then there's idle speculation about other teams, i.e. which one is the leader. Which all suggests to me that Ashley and Tim are aware that that's part of the pairs culture, and this is why "equal partners" is one of their self-identifications. Good for them. :love::luv17::hap10:

Ashley and Tim were fine in terms of safety before her accident. No the lifts weren’t the highest in the world, but they weren’t unsafe either, and that fluke could have happened to anyone:

Very true. Although part of me wishes (even before Golden Spin) that they would find a choreographer ..... calling Charlie White :love: :bow:..... who is imaginative enough, and off-the-wall enough, to help them create some gorgeous, innovative lifts that would carry them in a different direction. Something where the height of their lifts didn't matter so much, and something that would really be unique to them.

But of course, the scoring system makes that almost ... but not quite ... impossible. I should be ... and I am, very happy that they do already create such a unique look, by emphasizing their long limbs, their connection and musicality, and their beautiful unison.
 

skylark

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I love the Knierims! My Gordeeva and Grinkov loving heart makes me love any pair that is a couple. That being said, I would still love Alexa and Chris even if they weren't a couple. They just shine. They could be a top world pair if not for their SBS jumps. Their throws are huge. I dream that now since they are in the new rink in Irvine CA, they get Katia Gordeeva to help them with their jumps. I think she lives somewhere near LA and Raf is or was her younger daughters coach. But her and her late husband did beat their new coaches in the 94' Olympics so I dont know if they'd call her lol.

I haven't connected to any other US pair. I'm curious to see Denney and Frasier's new programs since Charlie White choreographed them. Do they no longer work with Marina Zoueva?

I saw D/F's FS during Skate Canada, but it's not on utube any more. I remember I loved it, mostly because I just love watching them skate. I didn't realize Charlie choreographed it; that's an angle I'll be looking at now. :) They've moved back to Florida to work with John Zimmerman, I don't know if that rules out working with Marina.

As for Katia and the Knierims ... hey, that sounds like a cute title .... Katia's always said she wasn't good at jumps. But I love your idea, because one area I think she could help them is to maximize their visible on-ice connection, as a married couple. I'd love to see them get some ideas from her. .
 

Joubabe

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In most instances, the Knierims should win Nationals, but I'd feel more hopeful if it was scored like an international event. A concern is that some US pairs tend to have their best skates at Nationals and that the scoring gets a little haywire in part based on crowd response and standing ovations that would be absent at an international. I hope our pair with the strongest chance on the world level is sent.

I'm in complete agreement. I've been at Nationals when results have been skewed by audience response. This is my biggest concern this year. Knierims should win Nationals and should be sent to Worlds, but if they finish out of first this year because another team skates cleaner, albeit with weaker elements, then USFS might not send them to Worlds based on their recent "body of work."
I also fear that politically they are on thin ice for Worlds if they don't finish first since they got the only Olympic berth last year and USFS might feel pressured to give the opportunity to another team.

So Alex & Chris just need to skate like the number 1 team that they are and all will be well!
 

el henry

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Aren’t the pairs judged by the same new system this year, where clean and stellar performances will score highly. And certainly more highly than sloppy performances with “more difficult” elements. Internationally and nationally?

No more “A for effort”, which IMHO is how it should be.:agree:

That said, I also love Alexa and Chris. I love that she is funny, fierce, and honest, and I love that it carries over in some of their programs. That Metallica SP, I still rewatch. That quad twist, as other posters have said, is a thing of beauty.

But they will need to bring it at Nats and not rely on what they coulda shoulda woulda done, but what they *are* doing. On the ice. At the comp.

I am going to be so torn at this comp:drama:
 
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Skater Boy

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I saw D/F's FS during Skate Canada, but it's not on utube any more. I remember I loved it, mostly because I just love watching them skate. I didn't realize Charlie choreographed it; that's an angle I'll be looking at now. :) They've moved back to Florida to work with John Zimmerman, I don't know if that rules out working with Marina.

As for Katia and the Knierims ... hey, that sounds like a cute title .... Katia's always said she wasn't good at jumps. But I love your idea, because one area I think she could help them is to maximize their visible on-ice connection, as a married couple. I'd love to see them get some ideas from her. .
The Knerims to me, I thought a few years ago they were on the cusp of medalling at worlds witht he quad and all and I really thought they would say have the place of Duhamel and Radford. But it didn't materialize and they kind of slipped down the ladder. i still think they could do it. Katia might help a bit but they have great connection. For what it is worth I thought Katia had trouble with the triples but she rarely missed her individual jumps oddly it was Sergei who made little errors when he got nervous.
 

skylark

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In most instances, the Knierims should win Nationals, but I'd feel more hopeful if it was scored like an international event. A concern is that some US pairs tend to have their best skates at Nationals and that the scoring gets a little haywire in part based on crowd response and standing ovations that would be absent at an international. I hope our pair with the strongest scoring potential on the world level is sent.

Your whole post is an excellent, objective analysis of our teams. I enjoyed reading it.

I felt very encouraged upon seeing Alexa and Chris in the K/C with Todd. He looked calm and happy to be there, and I think that's just what they need in terms of building confidence. The other thing I felt is that on their last outing (or was it next to last?) they both seemed to shed the thought of the SBS jump mistakes, and not carry the burden with them throughout the rest of the program. It reminded me of Adam Rippon falling on his opening quad, then "forget-about-it" ... he'd go ahead and skate a gorgeous program like it never happened. I got that feeling with Alexa and Chris. Then those two throw jumps landed beautifully back to back at the end of the program multiplied that whole effect. So maybe that was a kind of breakthrough for them. Of course on the other hand, maybe I'm wildly dreaming this all up. :laugh:
 

skylark

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The Knerims to me, I thought a few years ago they were on the cusp of medalling at worlds witht he quad and all and I really thought they would say have the place of Duhamel and Radford. But it didn't materialize and they kind of slipped down the ladder. i still think they could do it. Katia might help a bit but they have great connection. For what it is worth I thought Katia had trouble with the triples but she rarely missed her individual jumps oddly it was Sergei who made little errors when he got nervous.

Katia and Sergei were switched to pairs in the first place because neither was considered a strong jumper. But they re-learned everything so that they had identical technique and rhythm on the jumps, and the same musicality, and perfect unison, and it didn't matter. And yes, you're right, in the later years it was Sergei who missed a jump here and there. As for Alexa and Chris, when they were on the cusp of medalling at worlds was exactly when she got sick with a life-threatening illness. So, my take-away is that we're all fortunate they could come back after that, and fortunate that they wanted to.
 

skylark

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Aren’t the pairs judged by the same new system this year, where clean and stellar performances will score highly. And certainly more highly than sloppy performances with “more difficult” elements. Internationally and nationally?

The Knierims have been greatly benefiting from it, because they get very high GOEs on many of their elements. Rightly so. Their triple twist alone has been getting more than 2 GOE points, close to 3. Those extra points here and there have been saving them, after the negative marks for the SBS falls and pops.
 

Eloise14

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That's crazy that I mentioned my dream of Katia helping the Knierims and then that photo is posted 😯

Even if she doesnt help them in any way and was just at that rink, it's a really cute photo of 3 pairs ladies who all married their skating partners.

I wish we could get a photo of all three ladies and their guys but we cant 😔
 

Crossover

All Hail the Queen
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Very taken by Digerness and Neudecker and look forward to their performances whatever their placement.. they have a certain something... Of course the Knierims are the absolute best and are my very favorite team :)

Digerness and Neudecker have something extraordinary and magical like a young couple out of fairy tales or myths. That image made me curious about the youngster at Skate America whom I never saw before. It'll be interesting to see how they develop as a senior team. :luv17:
 

Moxiejan

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Ashley Cain posted on Instagram today that she & Timothy have resumed doing full run-throughs of their programs & expect to be ready for Nationals. She had to be off the ice for several weeks, due to being diagnosed with a concussion from that terrible fall. She did follow the concussion protocol & mentioned being treated by therapists.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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Ashley Cain posted on Instagram today that she & Timothy have resumed doing full run-throughs of their programs & expect to be ready for Nationals. She had to be off the ice for several weeks, due to being diagnosed with a concussion from that terrible fall. She did follow the concussion protocol & mentioned being treated by therapists.

I saw that post, and I was *so* happy....

1) that she appears to be healthy and recovered:clap:

2) and that she and her team conscientiously followed the concussion protocol :clap:

I think I saw some internet comments, well, she got up, how do you know she had a concussion? Well, now we know....
 

bobbob

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I'm in complete agreement. I've been at Nationals when results have been skewed by audience response. This is my biggest concern this year. Knierims should win Nationals and should be sent to Worlds, but if they finish out of first this year because another team skates cleaner, albeit with weaker elements, then USFS might not send them to Worlds based on their recent "body of work."
I also fear that politically they are on thin ice for Worlds if they don't finish first since they got the only Olympic berth last year and USFS might feel pressured to give the opportunity to another team.

So Alex & Chris just need to skate like the number 1 team that they are and all will be well!

I totally agree with this. There have been too many instances where its almost seems as if the audience is the one judging the competition. Kayne/O'Shea in 2016 was one example, and even worse was Denney / Coughlin losing out on a much deserved Olympic berth despite a far superior (though less clean) skate than Zhang/Bartholomay in 2014. The Knierims need to skate the cleanest to win, which is unfortunate because their programs are superior to those of most of the other teams even if they aren't clean.
 

el henry

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I totally agree with this. There have been too many instances where its almost seems as if the audience is the one judging the competition. Kayne/O'Shea in 2016 was one example, and even worse was Denney / Coughlin losing out on a much deserved Olympic berth despite a far superior (though less clean) skate than Zhang/Bartholomay in 2014. The Knierims need to skate the cleanest to win, which is unfortunate because their programs are superior to those of most of the other teams even if they aren't clean.

I disagree, Felicia and Nate deserved that Olympic berth and I was so glad to see them get it.

Seems to me “audience too much influence” is code word for “my team wuzrobbed”? :biggrin:

And I said it before and I’ll say it again, clean and “less difficult” deserves to beat “sloppy and more difficult”. Every time.:agree: ETA: which is no way prejudging what will happen at Nats. Just saying that the mere fact of a more difficult element is not the end-all and be-all.

But I love Alexa & Chris and Ashley & Tim and Deanna & Nate and Tarah & Danny.... I’d be happy with any of them,:yay:


Now, onto 2019 Nats,!
 
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Mrs. P

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With Denney and Coughlin it wasn’t just a bad landings. They popped their SBS jumps in both the SP and FS. They got higher PCS than Felicia and Nate in both segments but pops just are so costly.

There was a body of work factor back there cause usfs did give D/C Worlds (they had to w/d and Felicia and Nate ended up going there). I wonder if this scenario played out in 2018 how the selection would have turned out.
 

Joubabe

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I disagree, Felicia and Nate deserved that Olympic berth and I was so glad to see them get it.

Seems to me “audience too much influence” is code word for “my team wuzrobbed”? :biggrin:

And I said it before and I’ll say it again, clean and “less difficult” deserves to beat “sloppy and more difficult”. Every time.:agree: ETA: which is no way prejudging what will happen at Nats. Just saying that the mere fact of a more difficult element is not the end-all and be-all.

But I love Alexa & Chris and Ashley & Tim and Deanna & Nate and Tarah & Danny.... I’d be happy with any of them,:yay:


Now, onto 2019 Nats,!

Should we do away with the judges, then, and let the audience decide who wins? And when did crowd response become part of the criteria for PCS?
 
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