Pre-rotation

chopinskate · Jan 29, 2019

IDK, my life was feeling kinda empty for having not read a thread on pre-rotation here for several months at this point.

So... how do we fix it and stuff? Why won't the ISU do anything about it? How many more Twitter wars must we have? WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN (juniors who are making people lose hope that FS will ever have any good jumping talent in the future)?

(Serious thoughts: unless the ISU does something to evaluate rotation properly, people will keep learning "consistent" technique. And until they don't evaluate PCS properly, they will keep attempting attempting bad technique difficult jumps to get their PCS up).

Step Sequence4 · Jan 29, 2019

Oh gosh here we go again...
But honestly as long as it's not over half a rotation it's not that big of a deal...

Sam-Skwantch · Jan 29, 2019

Very rarely would I say skaters are doing prerotation actually worth noting. Maybe a bit of a reduction of GOE at times but nothing that warrants mandatory negative GOE or change in BV. Especially those skaters who land cleanly with zero UR. Maybe a handful of skaters in both disciplines combined but I think it’s greatly over exaggerated for the most part. It sure beats a donkey kick at takeoff which as far as I know never got punished. Speaking of those....have we finally moved past it? I don’t see anyone kicking like a mule anymore at takeoff.

chopinskate · Jan 29, 2019

Sam-Skwantch said:
Speaking of those....have we finally moved past it? I don’t see anyone kicking like a mule anymore at takeoff.

I don't remember many skaters who did at all. Sarah Hughes? Tara Lipinski? Who else (noteworthy)?

Sam-Skwantch · Jan 29, 2019

Step Sequence4 said:
Oh gosh here we go again...
But honestly as long as it's not over half a rotation it's not that big of a deal...

I think if it looks to a judge like it’s close to half or even just beyond that halfway point judges should consider loss of GOE. I think if it’s at halfway point the tech panel should only be concerned if there is also noticeable UR.

I don’t think the tech panel should address much with pre rotation though. If it affects the aesthetic of the jump the judges have plenty of room to accurately reflect it with GOE. I wish there was a “noticeable prerotation” in the GOE guidelines.

chuckm · Jan 29, 2019

Sarah Hughes did get dinged for PR. Peggy Fleming discussed this at a Worlds competition and they showed a video of Sarah making a full half turn on the ice before jumping.

Shanshani · Jan 29, 2019

I think excessive PR should result in some sort of deduction because it makes the jump easier, so you aren't really doing a full triple/quad/whatever. If someone takes off with no PR but underrotates, versus someone else who PRs by the same amount but doesn't underrotate, then both skaters have turned the same degrees in the air so it seems unfair to me to penalize the first one so harshly and not penalize the second one at all.

Sam-Skwantch · Jan 29, 2019

chopinskate said:
I don't remember many skaters who did at all. Sarah Hughes? Tara Lipinski? Who else (noteworthy)?

Several of my favorites did it them. Kanako Murakami comes to mind. Even Li Zijun has a bit of a toe hammer thing going on. I’m trying to remember the American I’d always see at Nats doing them. Caroline Zhang?

Sam-Skwantch · Jan 29, 2019

Shanshani said:
I think excessive PR should result in some sort of deduction because it makes the jump easier, so you aren't really doing a full triple/quad/whatever. If someone takes off with no PR but underrotates, versus someone else who PRs by the same amount but doesn't underrotate, then both skaters have turned the same degrees in the air so it seems unfair to me to penalize the first one so harshly and not penalize the second one at all.

They should definitely ease up on UR penalties IMO. If it’s a noticeable and consistent (constant) hooking I doubt the judges are giving high GOE anyway but should be expected to reduce it. I think the quarter turn landing slow motion nitpicking is a huge turn off!!

solani · Jan 29, 2019

chopinskate said:
I don't remember many skaters who did at all. Sarah Hughes? Tara Lipinski? Who else (noteworthy)?

Mao, but she still looked quite nice when she did it. :biggrin:

On topic, I'd say that Sarah Hughes really was the worst. No skater nowadays comes even close to what she did regularly imo. I have no idea what those judges took or got to overlook it at those Olympics. Her sister was the far better jumper.

solani · Jan 29, 2019

Sam-Skwantch said:
They should definitely ease up on UR penalties IMO. If it’s a noticeable and consistent (constant) hooking I doubt the judges are giving high GOE anyway but should be expected to reduce it. I think the quarter turn landing slow motion nitpicking is a huge turn off!!

I don't think so. A skater really should land backwards imo. This should be rewarded and you can only reward it by calling those UR's of the other skaters regularly.

chopinskate · Jan 29, 2019

Sam-Skwantch said:
Several of my favorites did it them. Kanako Murakami comes to mind. Even Li Zijun has a bit of a toe hammer thing going on. I’m trying to remember the American I’d always see at Nats doing them. Caroline Zhang?

Ah, yes, I'd forgotten. Zhang and Murakami were especially bad.

solani said:
Mao, but she still looked quite nice when she did it.

I don't know, I feel like her "toe hammer" never bothered me, if I'd even call it that. Even Yuna Kim is being increasingly said to have had a "toe hammer" now, but I disagree there (and the GIFs are all through 2012-2014, so not even her entire career). They never blatantly smashed the ice to get up into the air, it more looked like "oh, so that's how they jump". Hughes and Murakami were likely the worst.

Mathman · Jan 29, 2019

Sam-Skwantch said:
I’m trying to remember the American I’d always see at Nats doing them. Caroline Zhang?

Caroline Zhang. Commentators were always making the point that for such tiny girls, the only way they could get off the ground was to jam their toe into the ice as hard as possible. :laugh:

For a little while there was a pro- and anti-Sasha Cohen war on Wikipedia. If you looked up "figure skating mule kick" there would be references to Sasha as the poster child. Then a couple of hours later the text was edited to leave out Sasha as an example. Then it was back. :rofl:

Mathman · Jan 29, 2019

About pre-rotation, I look forward to the day when we can actually measure the number of degrees that a skater rotates in the air. I think we will be surprised and embarrassed.

solani · Jan 29, 2019

chopinskate said:
Ah, yes, I'd forgotten. Zhang and Murakami were especially bad.

I don't know, I feel like her "toe hammer" never bothered me, if I'd even call it that. Even Yuna Kim is being increasingly said to have had a "toe hammer" now, but I disagree there (and the GIFs are all from the 2012-2014 season, so not even through her career). They never blatantly smashed the ice to get up into the air, it more looked like "oh, so that's how they jump". Hughes and Murakami were likely the worst.

To be honest, Mao never bothered me.

But still her toe jumps could have looked even more elegant. And yes, Yuna did it slightly in some of her competitions ... I think it was around the time of the ridiculous flip discussions. I think it's a bad habit and Yuna's team must have intervened almost as soon as it started, so it didn't become permanent.

chopinskate · Jan 29, 2019

Mathman said:
For a little while there was a pro- and anti-Sasha Cohen war on Wikipedia. If you looked up "figure skating mule kick" there would be references to Sasha as the poster child. Then a couple of hours later the text was edited to leave out Sasha as an example. Then it was back.

Wikiwars!

I can't find the page anymore though

Sasha did have one, but it wasn't as... forceful and ugly? Nothing Sasha did was ugly though.

Sam-Skwantch · Jan 29, 2019

solani said:
I don't think so. A skater really should land backwards imo. This should be rewarded and you can only reward it by calling those UR's of the other skaters regularly.

Im not saying ignore UR. I’m just saying there is plenty of room via GOE to accurately depict that difference in jump quality. I think quarter turn short only bugs me if skaters are also prerotating noticeably. If it’s sketchy and snow goes flying on the landing the judges should already be reflecting it in their marks. I think that is enough to accurately address the difference in quality and give clean landings plenty of advantage.

I’m speaking in general here but we could get more specific by using a video example and discussing actually point reductions and if they seem fair or are unreasonable based upon actual situations.

Mathman · Jan 29, 2019

chopinskate said:
Wikiwars!

Then there was the time that Alex Shibutani's Wiki page was edited to include the citation: "sexiest skater alive!"

I know who was behind that, though. Charlie White, Evan Bates and Trevor Young, Alex's roommates at the University of Michigan.

solani · Jan 29, 2019

Sam-Skwantch said:
Im not saying ignore UR. I’m just saying there is plenty of room via GOE to accurately depict that difference in jump quality. I think quarter turn short only bugs me if skaters are also prerotating noticeably. If it’s sketchy and snow goes flying on the landing the judges should already be reflecting it in their marks. I think that is enough to accurately address the difference in quality and give clean landings plenty of advantage.

I’m speaking in general here but we could get more specific by using a video example and discussing actually point reductions and if they seem fair or are unreasonable based upon actual situations.

Ok. I would suggest that we compare Konstantinova's and Linfor's 3Lz-3T combo from the European's FS. There's less than .5 point difference between those combos. It should be more imo.
Score Sheet.

chopinskate · Jan 29, 2019

Mathman said:
Then there was the time that Alex Shibutani's Wiki page was edited to include the citation: "sexiest skater alive!"

I know who was behind that, though. Charlie White, Evan Bates and Trevor Young, Alex's roommates at the University of Michigan.

I feel like I remember reading this :rofl:

There're also actor pages where you'll randomly find phrases like "he is hot" :rofl:

Pre-rotation

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