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Triple TOE LOOP. The Toe Axel error is committed on the Triple TOE LOOP.
Pre-rotation
- Thread starter chopinskate
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Triple TOE LOOP. The Toe Axel error is committed on the Triple TOE LOOP.
I got so caught up on the error on the 3Lz I didn't look any further than that. My bad.
Wow I've actually never seen something like that before, where the skater actually turns so far before digging the toe. Thanks for showing me that. It appears to be almost a full blade assist too. However, isn't that just a more extreme version of what we're seeing from regular 3Ts that turn on the ice?
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No, it's not "just the more extreme version". The ENTIRE technique of the jump is messed up, from the way she enters to the way she vaults. Weight transfer and timing all off from the entry itself. The error YOU'RE talking about is more a function of poor vault/timing achieved at takeoff leading to releasing from the ice late. They don't have the strength to jump UP and THEN rotate, so they try to achieve the backspin position while still on the ice, which throws their timing at takeoff (someone can feel free to correct the details here). They dig into the ice with their toe pick and try to use their free leg to spin off the ice.
Yes, but she's still young. My gold standard right now is Tuktamysheva when she hits that combo.
Mao and her 3T ... it's supposed to be the easiest triple jump, but obviously not for Mao. She could've won a lot more with a halfway decent and reliable 3T. Imagine if she could've done a 3T as 2nd jump in combination in the short. But I still think she improved it over the years, but she never felt secure about it.Notice how Mai Asada pre-rotates on her skating foot before she even picks in. She almost looks like she's jumping off both feet. Compare that to Kihira who, well, doesn't do that. Her skating foot is still square in front of her as she picks in.
Mao Asada has a (somewhat less bad) toe axel here: https://youtu.be/XbPbbUeQ3Kw?t=148 She corrected it during her first season with Raf.
Want to help here?
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...I liked it :hpull:
:hpull:
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They can address it thru GOE currently.
I’m not sure if you’ve slowed this down and stopped it at take off but her pre rotation compared to the average is not that much better. Especially on the 3t. She does minimize it on the Lutz and basically keeps her head still. I wouldn’t say it adds to the aesthetic at takeoff but maybe in terms of increasing measurable air rotation it surely offers something. Out of curiosity I’d be interested in seeing you put a point value on what you think this jump deserves vs someone who Pre-Rotates a few degrees more and is more or less in line with the general standards of how most ladies (and men) do them today.
https://youtu.be/oy0UfOrbxgU?t=4m59s
I’ve explained why I agree with the ISU and think GOE is the perfect avenue to address noticable PR in real time although I do believe they need to reword better. As it stands now judges can address noticable pre-rotation as the following:
Poor Takeoff -2 or -3
Lacking Rotation (no sign) -1 or -2
Also note a judge may include in their evaluation that a poor takeoff excludes a skater from earning +4 or +5 which in and of itself is another reduction. Meaning a skater will start at at +3 at best and then face the above deductions for poor takeoff or lacking rotation.
Let’s be clear here. How many points do you think should be reflected in these two jumps which have very little noticable degree of of pre-rotation? Let’s give Tomoe +4 and Ensoo +1 for the sake of discussion for “poor takeoff”
3z-3t BV 5.90+4.20 10.10
Tomoe : + 4 (2.36) total 12.46
Ensoo: +1 (0.89) total 10.69
That’s almost a two point difference and is already becoming excessive IMO based on these two jumps. How many points are you talking here for what I consider to be a marginally better executed jump? I think 1.77 point advantage perfectly reflects the difference in jumps even if I’d score them closer once all things considered. I’m honestly curious to see how your scale of value works on this in actual point values? Do all pre rotations beyond Tomoe deserve to lose the same amount of deductions or are there degrees that need addressed? How would you score these two jumps and what methods do you use to determine this?
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Sam. No. She has <30 degrees PR or so on the Lutz, and then she has almost zero on the toe loop (beyond the natural quarter turn for a toe loop). Watching it in Japan Nationals, she probably did do a zero (beyond needed) pre-rotation toe loop here too (ETA: Looking at the slow mo, looks like it). It's Yuna Kim-level.
And she's exactly one of the reasons recording PR matters. Someone who lands at the 1/4 mark with her kind of technique is doing more work than someone who turns forward on take off and still lands at the 1/4 mark.
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Give me some numbers then? How many points are you talking. Do you want BV chopped and then negative GOE heaped on. And to what specific point values? Is there a sliding scale based on percentages of PR? I don’t understand what people want in terms of actually scoring adjustments. Personally I think you’ve all jumped on a runaway train and have gone too far with the criticism of normal rotation but I’m curious as to how those I find to be hypercritical would actually breakdown their scoring ideas beyond what we already have or operating within it.
I thought the GOE breakdown I offered above even seemed a bit OTT. I mean...1.77 is a big difference IMO. I think I actually prefer Ensoo’s jumps and TBH think Tomoes technique looks like it may put a lot of stress on her back at takeoff :shocked:
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I don't think there should be a sliding scale based on PR, I never said that particular thing. Forget GOE. Here's what I think: make sure that the people who turn less on the toe pick get more benefit of the doubt on the landing, so that people simply don't get away with landing on the exact same quarter mark no matter how much they rotate on the ice. Similarly, if you turn more than allowed, make sure the skater has to rotate more to validate their jump. Many people might not be able to rotate without turning forward, sure. But those who CAN are equally punished? I don't think that's fair.
I also don't think the number of rotations in terms of degrees rotated should be the primary factor in GOE. Jump quality (height, distance, flow, blah blah) matters more to me. But if two jumps are equal in everything else, I do think the more rotated jump should get more GOE. Just GOE, though, not additional deductions in BV. So jump with quality, and land rotated enough. That's all.
Another thing. I find it weird that a jump that (assuming similar takeoff) is landed 95 degree UR and also a jump landed 160 degrees UR, are given the same < and -GOE (assuming equal reputation). But this is a judge thing. I also don't agree with their interpretation of "lacking rotation". Seems like they see a < and hit it with -GOE, whereas I think if the jump is clean enough besides UR, it should be open for positive GOE rewards (although not beyond +1). That particular bullet should be used against barely rotated jumps which still had other good qualities (so a tano barely rotated 3F won't go beyond +1).
I do agree +5 system is a little much though. Seems like too huge rewards.
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I think the 3Lz+3T in the SP at Japan Nationals was better than Yuna Kim level. It was Yuzuru Hanyu level.
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I think the 3Lz+3T in the SP at Japan Nationals was better than Yuna Kim level. It was Yuzuru Hanyu level.
She doesn't pick outside the circle slightly like him, but that's OK, IMO. Her +3T, sure.
ETA: https://youtu.be/eMREnj_8qhs?t=201
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about PR:
sorry but Tomoe/Yuna level is my standard. :confused2:
sorry but Tomoe/Yuna level is my standard. :confused2:
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She doesn't pick outside the circle slightly like him, but that's OK, IMO. Her +3T, sure.
ETA: https://youtu.be/eMREnj_8qhs?t=201
what does pick outside the circle mean?
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Under current rules, a toe axel like Mai’s should be getting “<<“ calls, not just -GOE. You very occasionally also see this same kind of error on other jumps. I’ve seen one or two skaters who swoosh their free foot around completely forward on the flip before they pick, and sometimes you’ll see an Axel that ends up as basically an ugly three turn entry into a Salchow, and vice versa.
It’s also extraordinarily rare to see mistakes like that at the top levels. Spinning too much on the toepick *during liftoff* is not nearly as egregious, and also not deserving of technical calls. And PR in the sense that it’s most often used by fans isn’t a real error at all; I’m pretty sure I could go and find the thread in the G.S. archive from last quad when we invented the idea that it is.
It’s also extraordinarily rare to see mistakes like that at the top levels. Spinning too much on the toepick *during liftoff* is not nearly as egregious, and also not deserving of technical calls. And PR in the sense that it’s most often used by fans isn’t a real error at all; I’m pretty sure I could go and find the thread in the G.S. archive from last quad when we invented the idea that it is.
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okay so I was writing about the uber Russian juniors and how the antis always complained about PR, and I came to this conclusion:
You really can’t expect everybody to prerotate ~40 degrees just because a few people (Yuna, Tomoe, Yuzuru) can. Most skaters have a PR around 90, and if a jump is only UR past the 90 mark, anybody who PRs <180 on the toe jumps technically get full credit (right? My math is probably totally off). It’s insane to hold every single skater up to the standard of Yuna etc. because only so few skaters actually reach their level. If ~40 degrees was the maximum PR skaters like Rika, Liza, Polina and Mako would be punished although they have fantastic lutz technique. Here’s a statistic:
This season, one female skater (Tomoe) has a PR under 40. Four female skaters had a PR 90 and under (Mako, Polina, Liza and Masha). That’s five out of like forty that were measured. A good 12.5%. In other words 87.5% of skaters would be penalized, and that’s just not fair. Honestly even 90 seems harsh, but it’s more reasonable than 40 at least.
I have a question: I heard somewhere 90 degrees or less PR was allowed on toe jumps and 180 degrees or less for edge jumps. Is this correct?
You really can’t expect everybody to prerotate ~40 degrees just because a few people (Yuna, Tomoe, Yuzuru) can. Most skaters have a PR around 90, and if a jump is only UR past the 90 mark, anybody who PRs <180 on the toe jumps technically get full credit (right? My math is probably totally off). It’s insane to hold every single skater up to the standard of Yuna etc. because only so few skaters actually reach their level. If ~40 degrees was the maximum PR skaters like Rika, Liza, Polina and Mako would be punished although they have fantastic lutz technique. Here’s a statistic:
This season, one female skater (Tomoe) has a PR under 40. Four female skaters had a PR 90 and under (Mako, Polina, Liza and Masha). That’s five out of like forty that were measured. A good 12.5%. In other words 87.5% of skaters would be penalized, and that’s just not fair. Honestly even 90 seems harsh, but it’s more reasonable than 40 at least.
I have a question: I heard somewhere 90 degrees or less PR was allowed on toe jumps and 180 degrees or less for edge jumps. Is this correct?
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Some fans really do seem to think that anything other than an all-time great, +5 GOE jump is a terrible mistake.
Well, it’s another fan made standard, not really a rule.
I do think there’s a grain of truth to it, in that the biggest, most aesthetic jumps tend to have this amount or less of PR, but even that isn’t some universally true standard. Tuktamysheva does the full 180 PR on her toeloop and yet most agree her jumps are excellent, for example.
This is what I would do for numbers.
Firstly, remove the negative GOE for mild underrotations (like, nearly 90 degrees) and implement it if it's close to a downgrade or if it's too obvious. I don't think double penalties are necessary for 100 degrees.[
Secondly, treat prerotation and underrotation in the same category. Assign each jump a base amount of prerotation, which, going by aesthetics, seems to be 90 degrees for T, F, Lz, A and 180 degrees for S, Lo. Then, look at how much prerotation the skater does and how underrotated it is. If these two angles add to more than 90 degrees, deem it underrotated with the 30% base value penalty. So, someone prerotating 170 degrees on a lutz had better land it squeaky clean, while someone prerotating 90 degrees or less on a lutz is given a little more leeway on the landing. This way, we ensure skaters have the same amount of revolutions in the air and keep jumping rules consistent with current leniency on UR (> 90 degrees = UR). We don't need exact angle sums; if they're borderline on the prerotation and the underrotation, treat it as underrotated, that sort of thing.
Thirdly, skaters that do not exceed the above thresholds on prerotation at all should be rewarded with a bonus GOE of +1. So, there is a spectrum here:
1. Skaters that blatantly UR and PR, get downgraded (not many)
2. Skaters that UR or PR a little too much, get called UR (a decent proportion of skaters)
3. Skaters that PR more than normal, but land the jumps perfectly clean (a decent proportion of skaters, amongst the better PR jumpers), no penalty
4. Skaters that do not prerotate more than 90 degrees and land the jumps perfectly clean (rare group of skaters :sad4
. +1 GOEWhat do you guys think? Reasonable? Or shall we impose a -GOE for prerotating too much anyway?
I hope my proposal solves your query. The 87.5% of skaters would not be penalised if they did not UR at all (no leniency), thereby still rotating as much as skaters with < 90 degrees PR that UR less than 90.
I wouldn't say Liza's 3T is the best. It looks just like every other 3T at normal speed, and indeed if you look at Nathan's 4T+3T vs Yuzuru's 4T+3T, Yuzuru looks like he rotates more in the air, even though they're both quad-triples, and this is because Yuzuru rotates earlier and actually completes more revolutions in the air, so you see more quick rotation, whereas with Nathan, the rotation starts later because of extra prerotation and it really impacts the jump quality. (tbh I only recently noticed that's why Yuzuru seems to spin that much more than others)
Yuzuru Hanyu 4T+3T Rostelecom 2018 SP
https://youtu.be/vihR6Nh-v3k?t=120
Nathan Chen 4T+3T Nationals 2019 FS
https://youtu.be/B_AN_ht9tok?t=200
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This is what I would do for numbers.
Firstly, remove the negative GOE for mild underrotations (like, nearly 90 degrees) and implement it if it's close to a downgrade or if it's too obvious. I don't think double penalties are necessary for 100 degrees.[
Secondly, treat prerotation and underrotation in the same category. Assign each jump a base amount of prerotation, which, going by aesthetics, seems to be 90 degrees for T, F, Lz, A and 180 degrees for S, Lo. Then, look at how much prerotation the skater does and how underrotated it is. If these two angles add to more than 90 degrees, deem it underrotated with the 30% base value penalty. So, someone prerotating 170 degrees on a lutz had better land it squeaky clean, while someone prerotating 90 degrees or less on a lutz is given a little more leeway on the landing. This way, we ensure skaters have the same amount of revolutions in the air and keep jumping rules consistent with current leniency on UR (> 90 degrees = UR). We don't need exact angle sums; if they're borderline on the prerotation and the underrotation, treat it as underrotated, that sort of thing.
Thirdly, skaters that do not exceed the above thresholds on prerotation at all should be rewarded with a bonus GOE of +1. So, there is a spectrum here:
1. Skaters that blatantly UR and PR, get downgraded (not many)
2. Skaters that UR or PR a little too much, get called UR (a decent proportion of skaters)
3. Skaters that PR more than normal, but land the jumps perfectly clean (a decent proportion of skaters, amongst the better PR jumpers), no penalty
4. Skaters that do not prerotate more than 90 degrees and land the jumps perfectly clean (rare group of skaters :sad4
What do you guys think? Reasonable? Or shall we impose a -GOE for prerotating too much anyway?
I hope my proposal solves your query. The 87.5% of skaters would not be penalised if they did not UR at all (no leniency), thereby still rotating as much as skaters with < 90 degrees PR that UR less than 90.
I think that's a really good idea actually, kind of like what I said earlier on about PR less than 180 actually not beingthat big a deal as long as the jump is landed completely clean. But perhaps a skater like Tomoe Kawabata should receive +GOE for her 28 degrees prerotation since that's something that almost nobody currently competing in ladies singles can achieve. Maybe awarding GOEs to less PRd jumps will encourage more skaters to try to change their technique so they also have less PR.
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For the toe loop, I agree that 90 degrees PR is a weird standard to have since you already need those 90 degrees. It does look good, but as you mentioned, Tukt also has a great 3T. Similar for sals and loops.
I don't think all minimal PR jumps are automatically the best ones in the field. Mao did some great 3Lo, and she did do the full 180 degree turn on the ice before takeoff, too, although some might argue she could have turned a lower amount (I personally don't care if loops and sals turn forward on take off).
I don't think >=90 for loops, sals, and toe loops are fan made standards. That much is needed. And I do think the skaters are taught to turn by <=180, which is also not a fan made standard, more a physical "just this much is needed to produce a good, aesthetic jump, proper looking jump". And, well, it's a standard that all skaters should be held to, because there need to be standards for a sport. How else will it be judged? If they rotate more than that on the ice, it just stops looking like a full triple (or quad) jump if they still land on the quarter mark.
I also don't care if the rest of the jumps somehow do more than 90 degrees on take off, but beyond 180 it's a problem of standards. I don't think they look good though, and as a question of quality should probably be receiving less GOE than their low PR counterparts, unless somehow they're equally good or better.
Watch what Hanyu does with his lutz pick in the video largeman linked. He has exactly zero PR there. Tomoe somewhat points her toe inwards, allowing her to shift her weight a little later than he does.
Unrelated to that, I don't particularly think 0 PR is needed for the lutz and flip. If you're giving me a better quality and better controlled lutz and flip with >0 but <90, I'll take that. I discovered this video of Browning doing something even more extreme on his flip, and while it's a great flip (and has more rotation on it than a full 3 turns in the air), he had problems on it. https://youtu.be/Nu7c-2qi9Lk?t=534
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